What reason would an alien civilization have for building a Dyson Sphere (or Swarm) if cheap Nuclear fusion is available?Brown Dwarves: Dyson Spheres in disguise?What is the likelihood that inhabitants of an alien planet similar to Earth geologically would have races?Would a Type 2 Kardashev Civilization really build a Dyson Sphere around their own sun?Is A Solar Dyson Sphere Habitable?What does Earth have to offer for an alien civilizationWould building a Dyson sphere inside the Earth's orbit render our planet uninhabitable?Nuclear apocalypse! What would it take for people to survive in the underground of a large metropolis?When and how would a Dyson sphere civilization in a fantasy setting learn size and shape of the sphere?Logical reasons for Forgoing a Dyson SwarmWhat would discovery of a magnetic monopole do for a civilization?What adaptations would an alien have to chew food in a humanoid manner without a tongue?

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What reason would an alien civilization have for building a Dyson Sphere (or Swarm) if cheap Nuclear fusion is available?



What reason would an alien civilization have for building a Dyson Sphere (or Swarm) if cheap Nuclear fusion is available?


Brown Dwarves: Dyson Spheres in disguise?What is the likelihood that inhabitants of an alien planet similar to Earth geologically would have races?Would a Type 2 Kardashev Civilization really build a Dyson Sphere around their own sun?Is A Solar Dyson Sphere Habitable?What does Earth have to offer for an alien civilizationWould building a Dyson sphere inside the Earth's orbit render our planet uninhabitable?Nuclear apocalypse! What would it take for people to survive in the underground of a large metropolis?When and how would a Dyson sphere civilization in a fantasy setting learn size and shape of the sphere?Logical reasons for Forgoing a Dyson SwarmWhat would discovery of a magnetic monopole do for a civilization?What adaptations would an alien have to chew food in a humanoid manner without a tongue?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








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The Dyson Dilemma states that every civilization of a great enough development stage will want to capture all of the energy from it's home star and surround it with a Dyson Swarm that uses solar panels to capture every last square meter of sunlight. Such a structure should be detectable within 1 kpc and yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis.



Building millions of solar panels in space and dealing with the cosmic rays, solar flares and micrometeorites seems like a real hassle. Having your entire civilization in one location also seems like it would make it vulnerable to interstellar warfare, rogue nanobots, and so on...



On our current technological development timeline, we will have Nuclear Fusion power well before any Dyson Swarm gets up and running (Decades vs Centuries). The Sun is also extremely inefficient running at 10^4 times slower than any man-made fusion process. It's so slow that, per unit volume, the sun puts out about the same energy as your average compost heap.



A civilization that grows large enough to need a Dyson swarm is going to keep growing to the point where its star's output is no longer fast enough and it will need to access the hydrogen directly (Starlifting) in order to power all of it's fusion reactors.



So why would any alien civilization ever build these Dyson Swarms?



Dyson Swarm - Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dyson_swarm.png










share|improve this question









New contributor



Benjamin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • $begingroup$
    "yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis" maybe and then again maybe not it depends on the final shell temperature being emitted by the sphere, some objects we think are red giants may in fact be Dyson type constructs.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. I've never heard that before. Can you link a source?
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here, it's definitely a Larry Niven suggestion I'm just not 100% as to where he wrote it.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash More likely we'd think they were brown dwarfs, with all their radiation in infrared -- and only if we could manage a parallax distance measurement might we notice that they're much further away, hence much more intrinsically bright in IR than is possible for a brown dwarf...
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "But beings whose chemistry is based on molten copper, say, would want a hotter environment. They might have evolved faster, in temperatures where chemistry and biochemistry would move far faster. There might be a lot more of them than of us. And their red-hot Dyson spheres would look deceptively like red giant or supergiant stars. One wonders." --Larry Niven
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Nichols
    6 hours ago

















4












$begingroup$


The Dyson Dilemma states that every civilization of a great enough development stage will want to capture all of the energy from it's home star and surround it with a Dyson Swarm that uses solar panels to capture every last square meter of sunlight. Such a structure should be detectable within 1 kpc and yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis.



Building millions of solar panels in space and dealing with the cosmic rays, solar flares and micrometeorites seems like a real hassle. Having your entire civilization in one location also seems like it would make it vulnerable to interstellar warfare, rogue nanobots, and so on...



On our current technological development timeline, we will have Nuclear Fusion power well before any Dyson Swarm gets up and running (Decades vs Centuries). The Sun is also extremely inefficient running at 10^4 times slower than any man-made fusion process. It's so slow that, per unit volume, the sun puts out about the same energy as your average compost heap.



A civilization that grows large enough to need a Dyson swarm is going to keep growing to the point where its star's output is no longer fast enough and it will need to access the hydrogen directly (Starlifting) in order to power all of it's fusion reactors.



So why would any alien civilization ever build these Dyson Swarms?



Dyson Swarm - Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dyson_swarm.png










share|improve this question









New contributor



Benjamin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    "yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis" maybe and then again maybe not it depends on the final shell temperature being emitted by the sphere, some objects we think are red giants may in fact be Dyson type constructs.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. I've never heard that before. Can you link a source?
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here, it's definitely a Larry Niven suggestion I'm just not 100% as to where he wrote it.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash More likely we'd think they were brown dwarfs, with all their radiation in infrared -- and only if we could manage a parallax distance measurement might we notice that they're much further away, hence much more intrinsically bright in IR than is possible for a brown dwarf...
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "But beings whose chemistry is based on molten copper, say, would want a hotter environment. They might have evolved faster, in temperatures where chemistry and biochemistry would move far faster. There might be a lot more of them than of us. And their red-hot Dyson spheres would look deceptively like red giant or supergiant stars. One wonders." --Larry Niven
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Nichols
    6 hours ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


The Dyson Dilemma states that every civilization of a great enough development stage will want to capture all of the energy from it's home star and surround it with a Dyson Swarm that uses solar panels to capture every last square meter of sunlight. Such a structure should be detectable within 1 kpc and yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis.



Building millions of solar panels in space and dealing with the cosmic rays, solar flares and micrometeorites seems like a real hassle. Having your entire civilization in one location also seems like it would make it vulnerable to interstellar warfare, rogue nanobots, and so on...



On our current technological development timeline, we will have Nuclear Fusion power well before any Dyson Swarm gets up and running (Decades vs Centuries). The Sun is also extremely inefficient running at 10^4 times slower than any man-made fusion process. It's so slow that, per unit volume, the sun puts out about the same energy as your average compost heap.



A civilization that grows large enough to need a Dyson swarm is going to keep growing to the point where its star's output is no longer fast enough and it will need to access the hydrogen directly (Starlifting) in order to power all of it's fusion reactors.



So why would any alien civilization ever build these Dyson Swarms?



Dyson Swarm - Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dyson_swarm.png










share|improve this question









New contributor



Benjamin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




The Dyson Dilemma states that every civilization of a great enough development stage will want to capture all of the energy from it's home star and surround it with a Dyson Swarm that uses solar panels to capture every last square meter of sunlight. Such a structure should be detectable within 1 kpc and yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis.



Building millions of solar panels in space and dealing with the cosmic rays, solar flares and micrometeorites seems like a real hassle. Having your entire civilization in one location also seems like it would make it vulnerable to interstellar warfare, rogue nanobots, and so on...



On our current technological development timeline, we will have Nuclear Fusion power well before any Dyson Swarm gets up and running (Decades vs Centuries). The Sun is also extremely inefficient running at 10^4 times slower than any man-made fusion process. It's so slow that, per unit volume, the sun puts out about the same energy as your average compost heap.



A civilization that grows large enough to need a Dyson swarm is going to keep growing to the point where its star's output is no longer fast enough and it will need to access the hydrogen directly (Starlifting) in order to power all of it's fusion reactors.



So why would any alien civilization ever build these Dyson Swarms?



Dyson Swarm - Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dyson_swarm.png







reality-check technological-development dyson-spheres






share|improve this question









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share|improve this question




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edited 2 hours ago







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asked 8 hours ago









BenjaminBenjamin

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  • $begingroup$
    "yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis" maybe and then again maybe not it depends on the final shell temperature being emitted by the sphere, some objects we think are red giants may in fact be Dyson type constructs.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. I've never heard that before. Can you link a source?
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here, it's definitely a Larry Niven suggestion I'm just not 100% as to where he wrote it.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash More likely we'd think they were brown dwarfs, with all their radiation in infrared -- and only if we could manage a parallax distance measurement might we notice that they're much further away, hence much more intrinsically bright in IR than is possible for a brown dwarf...
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "But beings whose chemistry is based on molten copper, say, would want a hotter environment. They might have evolved faster, in temperatures where chemistry and biochemistry would move far faster. There might be a lot more of them than of us. And their red-hot Dyson spheres would look deceptively like red giant or supergiant stars. One wonders." --Larry Niven
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Nichols
    6 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    "yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis" maybe and then again maybe not it depends on the final shell temperature being emitted by the sphere, some objects we think are red giants may in fact be Dyson type constructs.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. I've never heard that before. Can you link a source?
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here, it's definitely a Larry Niven suggestion I'm just not 100% as to where he wrote it.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash More likely we'd think they were brown dwarfs, with all their radiation in infrared -- and only if we could manage a parallax distance measurement might we notice that they're much further away, hence much more intrinsically bright in IR than is possible for a brown dwarf...
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "But beings whose chemistry is based on molten copper, say, would want a hotter environment. They might have evolved faster, in temperatures where chemistry and biochemistry would move far faster. There might be a lot more of them than of us. And their red-hot Dyson spheres would look deceptively like red giant or supergiant stars. One wonders." --Larry Niven
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Nichols
    6 hours ago















$begingroup$
"yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis" maybe and then again maybe not it depends on the final shell temperature being emitted by the sphere, some objects we think are red giants may in fact be Dyson type constructs.
$endgroup$
– Ash
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
"yet our current sky surveys have turned up bubkis" maybe and then again maybe not it depends on the final shell temperature being emitted by the sphere, some objects we think are red giants may in fact be Dyson type constructs.
$endgroup$
– Ash
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
Interesting. I've never heard that before. Can you link a source?
$endgroup$
– Benjamin
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Interesting. I've never heard that before. Can you link a source?
$endgroup$
– Benjamin
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here, it's definitely a Larry Niven suggestion I'm just not 100% as to where he wrote it.
$endgroup$
– Ash
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in here, it's definitely a Larry Niven suggestion I'm just not 100% as to where he wrote it.
$endgroup$
– Ash
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Ash More likely we'd think they were brown dwarfs, with all their radiation in infrared -- and only if we could manage a parallax distance measurement might we notice that they're much further away, hence much more intrinsically bright in IR than is possible for a brown dwarf...
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Ash More likely we'd think they were brown dwarfs, with all their radiation in infrared -- and only if we could manage a parallax distance measurement might we notice that they're much further away, hence much more intrinsically bright in IR than is possible for a brown dwarf...
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
6 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
"But beings whose chemistry is based on molten copper, say, would want a hotter environment. They might have evolved faster, in temperatures where chemistry and biochemistry would move far faster. There might be a lot more of them than of us. And their red-hot Dyson spheres would look deceptively like red giant or supergiant stars. One wonders." --Larry Niven
$endgroup$
– Mike Nichols
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
"But beings whose chemistry is based on molten copper, say, would want a hotter environment. They might have evolved faster, in temperatures where chemistry and biochemistry would move far faster. There might be a lot more of them than of us. And their red-hot Dyson spheres would look deceptively like red giant or supergiant stars. One wonders." --Larry Niven
$endgroup$
– Mike Nichols
6 hours ago










6 Answers
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Our sun produces something like $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts.



That requires something in the neighborhood of 600 million tonnes of Hydrogen per second.



Getting a similar power from fusion would require a similar consumption of Hydrogen. Even for a culture that could build a Dyson sphere, that's a lot of Hydrogen to get if you are not using a star to do it. Are there ways to get it? Oh, probably. Are they as easy as would be cuddling up to a star? Probably not. One might imagine scooping up interstellar hydrogen, for example. Or vacuuming nearby solar systems.



As to meteorites, they would certainly scour the system they started in. They would want the mass, if nothing else. They might need to scour some nearby systems as well. They might even need to harvest mass from nearby stars, and do some nuclear synthesis.



As to cosmic rays, they will have a huge device from which to project any protective measures. Cosmic rays can be deflected with magnetic fields, for example. One expects there are other ways of dealing with radiation from space that would be discovered.



A Dyson sphere might well be easy to detect during construction, especially as the star's brightness starts to do wacky things. After all, Tabby's Star was pretty exciting for a while. It seems that natural explanations have been found. But for a while, it was tempting to hypothesize that we might have exciting "neighbors."



Once it's constructed it might be a lot harder to detect. It will radiate the same amount of energy but at a much lower temperature than the star inside. I'm not an astronomer, so I could be completely wrong here.



Plus, when you have $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts to play with, you might be able to construct some exciting defense systems. Imagine they could direct some appreciable fraction of their star's solar wind into a beam, just as an example.



Having a culture with a huge number of citizens in one place has interesting possibilities. Imagine, for example, the computer network they could construct. A Dyson sphere with the orbit of the Earth has an area of $2.8 times 10^17$ square km. If you had even one fairly modest CPU in each of those square km, you'd have a truly enormous parallel computer. It's quite difficult to project what you could do with such a system. But it would certainly not be boring.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Good answer. I suppose the real question becomes then, what does a civ needs 10^26 watts of power for? Seems a bit excessive.
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin
    7 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    FTL travel maybe?
    $endgroup$
    – Trevor D
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Dyson Spheres should be easily detectable. Unless you're "storing" massive amounts of energy to create heavy elements, energy into the sphere equals energy out. You take in 10^26 watts of power, you radiate 10^26 watts of heat. It's going to be obvious that something's up. Power and spectra don't match up with a star.
    $endgroup$
    – ltmauve
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Trevor D - A manned mission that reaches 50% of the speed of light would take a group of lasers at 75 x 10^6 GW or 0.000000075% of our Sun's current output. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel)
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Benjamin What about 99 or 100% speed of light?
    $endgroup$
    – Trevor D
    4 hours ago


















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To power nuclear fusion, you need hydrogen. The overwhelmingly largest hydrogen reservoir in any solar system, and conveniently an already working fusion reactor is its star.



In other words, there is far more energy to collect from a star than you could ever hope to generate in reactors.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Well, you could also use any element lighter than iron, but guess where you’ll find most of those too...
    $endgroup$
    – Joe Bloggs
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Earth has so much water that hydrogen for fusion power would last for billions of years; which is longer than the Sun will last to power a Dyson Swarm.
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    If you take the scientific limits further, dubbed Stellar Engineering if I'm right, you could start slicing up the stars to smaller, manageable sizes. "Easier" to use them as battery after overcoming the initial hurdle.
    $endgroup$
    – Lupus
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Benjamin not if you want to produce a compareable power output.
    $endgroup$
    – ths
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Benjamin The assumption that Dyson makes is that our civilization's energy needs will continue to expand geometrically along with our population and that inevitably we will require more energy than our planet can provide.
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Nichols
    6 hours ago


















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Your question is like asking "why build an oil power plant with all the related hassle, when we can chop wood and light a fire?".



The answer is: the order of magnitude of the produced energy. A star emits Petawatts of energy, while a fusion power plant can produce Megawatts, several order of magnitude less.



And a star saves the hassle of harvesting all the fuel, since gravity already did the job.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    3












    $begingroup$

    The commonly given reason for building any version of a Dyson Sphere is because the civilization needs an amount of energy comparable to the output of their star. A Dyson sphere captures a significant fraction of that ouput, and does it more or less passively.



    I would posit that a civilization could not create a Dyson sphere without first having fusion (both for electrical/thermal power, and for space propulsion), because of the tremendous amount of matter that needs to be moved around. There comes a time, however, when the materials (copper or superconductor precursors, for instance) to make fusion devices become too scarce, while (presumably) common structural materials are easier to source, and those to make solar collectors are also common.



    If all the high quality conductors in the Earth were tied up in fusion generators, it would still be possible to collect more energy from solar emissions, if one could cover enough of the sky -- and eventually, if our civilization lasts long enough, we'll need that energy badly enough to begin construction of a Dyson sphere.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      So, I'm going to frame challenge this, and say "no alien civilization entirely surrounds their stars with solar collectors."



      Piecewise assembly



      Here's the thing about a Dyson Swarm: It's not a single massive project that returns nothing until it's complete.



      All you need is solar-orbiting structures that (also) collect solar power, and some sort of orbital traffic control. As long as people keep building orbital structures, the power collected by the system increases, and eventually you get a Dyson swarm. No one ever decides one day "we should make a Dyson swarm." Instead they decide to make one (or some other reasonable number) of solar-orbiting structures. They quickly get the benefit of that structure - whether it's a habitat, research structure, manufacturing hub, etc.



      But then what?



      This continues until either the unused mass in the system vanishes or the civilization kills itself. Once the unused mass in the system is gone, no more structures will be put around the star. Sure, going to another star is possible, but why bother to ship the mass back? Power is power, regardless of where you get it. Interstellar shipping is expensive in terms of energy. And, as you said, having your entire civilization in one place is a bad idea.



      Therefore, advanced alien civilizations put partial Dyson swarms around every star they can get their mitts on. No star is ever fully surrounded.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$




















        1












        $begingroup$

        Defense.



        Your civilization has built up its system. It can meet its energy needs through fusion and more esoteric sources. But the sun is aging and as it ages, it becomes brighter.



        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_age_estimation#Luminosity_increase_and_the_Hertzsprung–Russell_diagram



        The civilization does not need all that energy. Really does not need it - it is throwing things out of balance and threatening the habitability of terraformed planets closer to the star.



        The answer is to soak up the extra. The Dyson sphere is a defensive maneuver to regulate the output of the star. It is analogous to damming a river - it is nice to have the river by your town but it is also potentially destructive. Its power output must be controlled and channeled.



        The Dyson sphere reradiates output to simulate the younger star, and captures and converts the excess. The question of what to do with excess energy is an interesting one. Maybe they convert it back to matter.






        share|improve this answer









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          6 Answers
          6






          active

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          6 Answers
          6






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

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          active

          oldest

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          3












          $begingroup$

          Our sun produces something like $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts.



          That requires something in the neighborhood of 600 million tonnes of Hydrogen per second.



          Getting a similar power from fusion would require a similar consumption of Hydrogen. Even for a culture that could build a Dyson sphere, that's a lot of Hydrogen to get if you are not using a star to do it. Are there ways to get it? Oh, probably. Are they as easy as would be cuddling up to a star? Probably not. One might imagine scooping up interstellar hydrogen, for example. Or vacuuming nearby solar systems.



          As to meteorites, they would certainly scour the system they started in. They would want the mass, if nothing else. They might need to scour some nearby systems as well. They might even need to harvest mass from nearby stars, and do some nuclear synthesis.



          As to cosmic rays, they will have a huge device from which to project any protective measures. Cosmic rays can be deflected with magnetic fields, for example. One expects there are other ways of dealing with radiation from space that would be discovered.



          A Dyson sphere might well be easy to detect during construction, especially as the star's brightness starts to do wacky things. After all, Tabby's Star was pretty exciting for a while. It seems that natural explanations have been found. But for a while, it was tempting to hypothesize that we might have exciting "neighbors."



          Once it's constructed it might be a lot harder to detect. It will radiate the same amount of energy but at a much lower temperature than the star inside. I'm not an astronomer, so I could be completely wrong here.



          Plus, when you have $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts to play with, you might be able to construct some exciting defense systems. Imagine they could direct some appreciable fraction of their star's solar wind into a beam, just as an example.



          Having a culture with a huge number of citizens in one place has interesting possibilities. Imagine, for example, the computer network they could construct. A Dyson sphere with the orbit of the Earth has an area of $2.8 times 10^17$ square km. If you had even one fairly modest CPU in each of those square km, you'd have a truly enormous parallel computer. It's quite difficult to project what you could do with such a system. But it would certainly not be boring.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Good answer. I suppose the real question becomes then, what does a civ needs 10^26 watts of power for? Seems a bit excessive.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            FTL travel maybe?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Dyson Spheres should be easily detectable. Unless you're "storing" massive amounts of energy to create heavy elements, energy into the sphere equals energy out. You take in 10^26 watts of power, you radiate 10^26 watts of heat. It's going to be obvious that something's up. Power and spectra don't match up with a star.
            $endgroup$
            – ltmauve
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Trevor D - A manned mission that reaches 50% of the speed of light would take a group of lasers at 75 x 10^6 GW or 0.000000075% of our Sun's current output. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel)
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin What about 99 or 100% speed of light?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            4 hours ago















          3












          $begingroup$

          Our sun produces something like $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts.



          That requires something in the neighborhood of 600 million tonnes of Hydrogen per second.



          Getting a similar power from fusion would require a similar consumption of Hydrogen. Even for a culture that could build a Dyson sphere, that's a lot of Hydrogen to get if you are not using a star to do it. Are there ways to get it? Oh, probably. Are they as easy as would be cuddling up to a star? Probably not. One might imagine scooping up interstellar hydrogen, for example. Or vacuuming nearby solar systems.



          As to meteorites, they would certainly scour the system they started in. They would want the mass, if nothing else. They might need to scour some nearby systems as well. They might even need to harvest mass from nearby stars, and do some nuclear synthesis.



          As to cosmic rays, they will have a huge device from which to project any protective measures. Cosmic rays can be deflected with magnetic fields, for example. One expects there are other ways of dealing with radiation from space that would be discovered.



          A Dyson sphere might well be easy to detect during construction, especially as the star's brightness starts to do wacky things. After all, Tabby's Star was pretty exciting for a while. It seems that natural explanations have been found. But for a while, it was tempting to hypothesize that we might have exciting "neighbors."



          Once it's constructed it might be a lot harder to detect. It will radiate the same amount of energy but at a much lower temperature than the star inside. I'm not an astronomer, so I could be completely wrong here.



          Plus, when you have $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts to play with, you might be able to construct some exciting defense systems. Imagine they could direct some appreciable fraction of their star's solar wind into a beam, just as an example.



          Having a culture with a huge number of citizens in one place has interesting possibilities. Imagine, for example, the computer network they could construct. A Dyson sphere with the orbit of the Earth has an area of $2.8 times 10^17$ square km. If you had even one fairly modest CPU in each of those square km, you'd have a truly enormous parallel computer. It's quite difficult to project what you could do with such a system. But it would certainly not be boring.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Good answer. I suppose the real question becomes then, what does a civ needs 10^26 watts of power for? Seems a bit excessive.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            FTL travel maybe?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Dyson Spheres should be easily detectable. Unless you're "storing" massive amounts of energy to create heavy elements, energy into the sphere equals energy out. You take in 10^26 watts of power, you radiate 10^26 watts of heat. It's going to be obvious that something's up. Power and spectra don't match up with a star.
            $endgroup$
            – ltmauve
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Trevor D - A manned mission that reaches 50% of the speed of light would take a group of lasers at 75 x 10^6 GW or 0.000000075% of our Sun's current output. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel)
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin What about 99 or 100% speed of light?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            4 hours ago













          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          Our sun produces something like $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts.



          That requires something in the neighborhood of 600 million tonnes of Hydrogen per second.



          Getting a similar power from fusion would require a similar consumption of Hydrogen. Even for a culture that could build a Dyson sphere, that's a lot of Hydrogen to get if you are not using a star to do it. Are there ways to get it? Oh, probably. Are they as easy as would be cuddling up to a star? Probably not. One might imagine scooping up interstellar hydrogen, for example. Or vacuuming nearby solar systems.



          As to meteorites, they would certainly scour the system they started in. They would want the mass, if nothing else. They might need to scour some nearby systems as well. They might even need to harvest mass from nearby stars, and do some nuclear synthesis.



          As to cosmic rays, they will have a huge device from which to project any protective measures. Cosmic rays can be deflected with magnetic fields, for example. One expects there are other ways of dealing with radiation from space that would be discovered.



          A Dyson sphere might well be easy to detect during construction, especially as the star's brightness starts to do wacky things. After all, Tabby's Star was pretty exciting for a while. It seems that natural explanations have been found. But for a while, it was tempting to hypothesize that we might have exciting "neighbors."



          Once it's constructed it might be a lot harder to detect. It will radiate the same amount of energy but at a much lower temperature than the star inside. I'm not an astronomer, so I could be completely wrong here.



          Plus, when you have $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts to play with, you might be able to construct some exciting defense systems. Imagine they could direct some appreciable fraction of their star's solar wind into a beam, just as an example.



          Having a culture with a huge number of citizens in one place has interesting possibilities. Imagine, for example, the computer network they could construct. A Dyson sphere with the orbit of the Earth has an area of $2.8 times 10^17$ square km. If you had even one fairly modest CPU in each of those square km, you'd have a truly enormous parallel computer. It's quite difficult to project what you could do with such a system. But it would certainly not be boring.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          Our sun produces something like $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts.



          That requires something in the neighborhood of 600 million tonnes of Hydrogen per second.



          Getting a similar power from fusion would require a similar consumption of Hydrogen. Even for a culture that could build a Dyson sphere, that's a lot of Hydrogen to get if you are not using a star to do it. Are there ways to get it? Oh, probably. Are they as easy as would be cuddling up to a star? Probably not. One might imagine scooping up interstellar hydrogen, for example. Or vacuuming nearby solar systems.



          As to meteorites, they would certainly scour the system they started in. They would want the mass, if nothing else. They might need to scour some nearby systems as well. They might even need to harvest mass from nearby stars, and do some nuclear synthesis.



          As to cosmic rays, they will have a huge device from which to project any protective measures. Cosmic rays can be deflected with magnetic fields, for example. One expects there are other ways of dealing with radiation from space that would be discovered.



          A Dyson sphere might well be easy to detect during construction, especially as the star's brightness starts to do wacky things. After all, Tabby's Star was pretty exciting for a while. It seems that natural explanations have been found. But for a while, it was tempting to hypothesize that we might have exciting "neighbors."



          Once it's constructed it might be a lot harder to detect. It will radiate the same amount of energy but at a much lower temperature than the star inside. I'm not an astronomer, so I could be completely wrong here.



          Plus, when you have $3.8 times 10^26$ Watts to play with, you might be able to construct some exciting defense systems. Imagine they could direct some appreciable fraction of their star's solar wind into a beam, just as an example.



          Having a culture with a huge number of citizens in one place has interesting possibilities. Imagine, for example, the computer network they could construct. A Dyson sphere with the orbit of the Earth has an area of $2.8 times 10^17$ square km. If you had even one fairly modest CPU in each of those square km, you'd have a truly enormous parallel computer. It's quite difficult to project what you could do with such a system. But it would certainly not be boring.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 5 hours ago









          JBH

          55k8125265




          55k8125265










          answered 7 hours ago









          puppetsockpuppetsock

          4685




          4685











          • $begingroup$
            Good answer. I suppose the real question becomes then, what does a civ needs 10^26 watts of power for? Seems a bit excessive.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            FTL travel maybe?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Dyson Spheres should be easily detectable. Unless you're "storing" massive amounts of energy to create heavy elements, energy into the sphere equals energy out. You take in 10^26 watts of power, you radiate 10^26 watts of heat. It's going to be obvious that something's up. Power and spectra don't match up with a star.
            $endgroup$
            – ltmauve
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Trevor D - A manned mission that reaches 50% of the speed of light would take a group of lasers at 75 x 10^6 GW or 0.000000075% of our Sun's current output. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel)
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin What about 99 or 100% speed of light?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            4 hours ago
















          • $begingroup$
            Good answer. I suppose the real question becomes then, what does a civ needs 10^26 watts of power for? Seems a bit excessive.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            FTL travel maybe?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Dyson Spheres should be easily detectable. Unless you're "storing" massive amounts of energy to create heavy elements, energy into the sphere equals energy out. You take in 10^26 watts of power, you radiate 10^26 watts of heat. It's going to be obvious that something's up. Power and spectra don't match up with a star.
            $endgroup$
            – ltmauve
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Trevor D - A manned mission that reaches 50% of the speed of light would take a group of lasers at 75 x 10^6 GW or 0.000000075% of our Sun's current output. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel)
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin What about 99 or 100% speed of light?
            $endgroup$
            – Trevor D
            4 hours ago















          $begingroup$
          Good answer. I suppose the real question becomes then, what does a civ needs 10^26 watts of power for? Seems a bit excessive.
          $endgroup$
          – Benjamin
          7 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          Good answer. I suppose the real question becomes then, what does a civ needs 10^26 watts of power for? Seems a bit excessive.
          $endgroup$
          – Benjamin
          7 hours ago





          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          FTL travel maybe?
          $endgroup$
          – Trevor D
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          FTL travel maybe?
          $endgroup$
          – Trevor D
          5 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          Dyson Spheres should be easily detectable. Unless you're "storing" massive amounts of energy to create heavy elements, energy into the sphere equals energy out. You take in 10^26 watts of power, you radiate 10^26 watts of heat. It's going to be obvious that something's up. Power and spectra don't match up with a star.
          $endgroup$
          – ltmauve
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Dyson Spheres should be easily detectable. Unless you're "storing" massive amounts of energy to create heavy elements, energy into the sphere equals energy out. You take in 10^26 watts of power, you radiate 10^26 watts of heat. It's going to be obvious that something's up. Power and spectra don't match up with a star.
          $endgroup$
          – ltmauve
          5 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          @Trevor D - A manned mission that reaches 50% of the speed of light would take a group of lasers at 75 x 10^6 GW or 0.000000075% of our Sun's current output. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel)
          $endgroup$
          – Benjamin
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @Trevor D - A manned mission that reaches 50% of the speed of light would take a group of lasers at 75 x 10^6 GW or 0.000000075% of our Sun's current output. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel)
          $endgroup$
          – Benjamin
          5 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          @Benjamin What about 99 or 100% speed of light?
          $endgroup$
          – Trevor D
          4 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @Benjamin What about 99 or 100% speed of light?
          $endgroup$
          – Trevor D
          4 hours ago













          6












          $begingroup$

          To power nuclear fusion, you need hydrogen. The overwhelmingly largest hydrogen reservoir in any solar system, and conveniently an already working fusion reactor is its star.



          In other words, there is far more energy to collect from a star than you could ever hope to generate in reactors.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Well, you could also use any element lighter than iron, but guess where you’ll find most of those too...
            $endgroup$
            – Joe Bloggs
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Earth has so much water that hydrogen for fusion power would last for billions of years; which is longer than the Sun will last to power a Dyson Swarm.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            If you take the scientific limits further, dubbed Stellar Engineering if I'm right, you could start slicing up the stars to smaller, manageable sizes. "Easier" to use them as battery after overcoming the initial hurdle.
            $endgroup$
            – Lupus
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Benjamin not if you want to produce a compareable power output.
            $endgroup$
            – ths
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin The assumption that Dyson makes is that our civilization's energy needs will continue to expand geometrically along with our population and that inevitably we will require more energy than our planet can provide.
            $endgroup$
            – Mike Nichols
            6 hours ago















          6












          $begingroup$

          To power nuclear fusion, you need hydrogen. The overwhelmingly largest hydrogen reservoir in any solar system, and conveniently an already working fusion reactor is its star.



          In other words, there is far more energy to collect from a star than you could ever hope to generate in reactors.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Well, you could also use any element lighter than iron, but guess where you’ll find most of those too...
            $endgroup$
            – Joe Bloggs
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Earth has so much water that hydrogen for fusion power would last for billions of years; which is longer than the Sun will last to power a Dyson Swarm.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            If you take the scientific limits further, dubbed Stellar Engineering if I'm right, you could start slicing up the stars to smaller, manageable sizes. "Easier" to use them as battery after overcoming the initial hurdle.
            $endgroup$
            – Lupus
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Benjamin not if you want to produce a compareable power output.
            $endgroup$
            – ths
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin The assumption that Dyson makes is that our civilization's energy needs will continue to expand geometrically along with our population and that inevitably we will require more energy than our planet can provide.
            $endgroup$
            – Mike Nichols
            6 hours ago













          6












          6








          6





          $begingroup$

          To power nuclear fusion, you need hydrogen. The overwhelmingly largest hydrogen reservoir in any solar system, and conveniently an already working fusion reactor is its star.



          In other words, there is far more energy to collect from a star than you could ever hope to generate in reactors.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          To power nuclear fusion, you need hydrogen. The overwhelmingly largest hydrogen reservoir in any solar system, and conveniently an already working fusion reactor is its star.



          In other words, there is far more energy to collect from a star than you could ever hope to generate in reactors.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 8 hours ago









          thsths

          2,152411




          2,152411











          • $begingroup$
            Well, you could also use any element lighter than iron, but guess where you’ll find most of those too...
            $endgroup$
            – Joe Bloggs
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Earth has so much water that hydrogen for fusion power would last for billions of years; which is longer than the Sun will last to power a Dyson Swarm.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            If you take the scientific limits further, dubbed Stellar Engineering if I'm right, you could start slicing up the stars to smaller, manageable sizes. "Easier" to use them as battery after overcoming the initial hurdle.
            $endgroup$
            – Lupus
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Benjamin not if you want to produce a compareable power output.
            $endgroup$
            – ths
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin The assumption that Dyson makes is that our civilization's energy needs will continue to expand geometrically along with our population and that inevitably we will require more energy than our planet can provide.
            $endgroup$
            – Mike Nichols
            6 hours ago
















          • $begingroup$
            Well, you could also use any element lighter than iron, but guess where you’ll find most of those too...
            $endgroup$
            – Joe Bloggs
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Earth has so much water that hydrogen for fusion power would last for billions of years; which is longer than the Sun will last to power a Dyson Swarm.
            $endgroup$
            – Benjamin
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            If you take the scientific limits further, dubbed Stellar Engineering if I'm right, you could start slicing up the stars to smaller, manageable sizes. "Easier" to use them as battery after overcoming the initial hurdle.
            $endgroup$
            – Lupus
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Benjamin not if you want to produce a compareable power output.
            $endgroup$
            – ths
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Benjamin The assumption that Dyson makes is that our civilization's energy needs will continue to expand geometrically along with our population and that inevitably we will require more energy than our planet can provide.
            $endgroup$
            – Mike Nichols
            6 hours ago















          $begingroup$
          Well, you could also use any element lighter than iron, but guess where you’ll find most of those too...
          $endgroup$
          – Joe Bloggs
          8 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Well, you could also use any element lighter than iron, but guess where you’ll find most of those too...
          $endgroup$
          – Joe Bloggs
          8 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          Earth has so much water that hydrogen for fusion power would last for billions of years; which is longer than the Sun will last to power a Dyson Swarm.
          $endgroup$
          – Benjamin
          7 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Earth has so much water that hydrogen for fusion power would last for billions of years; which is longer than the Sun will last to power a Dyson Swarm.
          $endgroup$
          – Benjamin
          7 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          If you take the scientific limits further, dubbed Stellar Engineering if I'm right, you could start slicing up the stars to smaller, manageable sizes. "Easier" to use them as battery after overcoming the initial hurdle.
          $endgroup$
          – Lupus
          7 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          If you take the scientific limits further, dubbed Stellar Engineering if I'm right, you could start slicing up the stars to smaller, manageable sizes. "Easier" to use them as battery after overcoming the initial hurdle.
          $endgroup$
          – Lupus
          7 hours ago




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          @Benjamin not if you want to produce a compareable power output.
          $endgroup$
          – ths
          6 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @Benjamin not if you want to produce a compareable power output.
          $endgroup$
          – ths
          6 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          @Benjamin The assumption that Dyson makes is that our civilization's energy needs will continue to expand geometrically along with our population and that inevitably we will require more energy than our planet can provide.
          $endgroup$
          – Mike Nichols
          6 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @Benjamin The assumption that Dyson makes is that our civilization's energy needs will continue to expand geometrically along with our population and that inevitably we will require more energy than our planet can provide.
          $endgroup$
          – Mike Nichols
          6 hours ago











          5












          $begingroup$

          Your question is like asking "why build an oil power plant with all the related hassle, when we can chop wood and light a fire?".



          The answer is: the order of magnitude of the produced energy. A star emits Petawatts of energy, while a fusion power plant can produce Megawatts, several order of magnitude less.



          And a star saves the hassle of harvesting all the fuel, since gravity already did the job.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$

















            5












            $begingroup$

            Your question is like asking "why build an oil power plant with all the related hassle, when we can chop wood and light a fire?".



            The answer is: the order of magnitude of the produced energy. A star emits Petawatts of energy, while a fusion power plant can produce Megawatts, several order of magnitude less.



            And a star saves the hassle of harvesting all the fuel, since gravity already did the job.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$















              5












              5








              5





              $begingroup$

              Your question is like asking "why build an oil power plant with all the related hassle, when we can chop wood and light a fire?".



              The answer is: the order of magnitude of the produced energy. A star emits Petawatts of energy, while a fusion power plant can produce Megawatts, several order of magnitude less.



              And a star saves the hassle of harvesting all the fuel, since gravity already did the job.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              Your question is like asking "why build an oil power plant with all the related hassle, when we can chop wood and light a fire?".



              The answer is: the order of magnitude of the produced energy. A star emits Petawatts of energy, while a fusion power plant can produce Megawatts, several order of magnitude less.



              And a star saves the hassle of harvesting all the fuel, since gravity already did the job.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 5 hours ago









              JBH

              55k8125265




              55k8125265










              answered 8 hours ago









              L.DutchL.Dutch

              99.5k31234478




              99.5k31234478





















                  3












                  $begingroup$

                  The commonly given reason for building any version of a Dyson Sphere is because the civilization needs an amount of energy comparable to the output of their star. A Dyson sphere captures a significant fraction of that ouput, and does it more or less passively.



                  I would posit that a civilization could not create a Dyson sphere without first having fusion (both for electrical/thermal power, and for space propulsion), because of the tremendous amount of matter that needs to be moved around. There comes a time, however, when the materials (copper or superconductor precursors, for instance) to make fusion devices become too scarce, while (presumably) common structural materials are easier to source, and those to make solar collectors are also common.



                  If all the high quality conductors in the Earth were tied up in fusion generators, it would still be possible to collect more energy from solar emissions, if one could cover enough of the sky -- and eventually, if our civilization lasts long enough, we'll need that energy badly enough to begin construction of a Dyson sphere.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$

















                    3












                    $begingroup$

                    The commonly given reason for building any version of a Dyson Sphere is because the civilization needs an amount of energy comparable to the output of their star. A Dyson sphere captures a significant fraction of that ouput, and does it more or less passively.



                    I would posit that a civilization could not create a Dyson sphere without first having fusion (both for electrical/thermal power, and for space propulsion), because of the tremendous amount of matter that needs to be moved around. There comes a time, however, when the materials (copper or superconductor precursors, for instance) to make fusion devices become too scarce, while (presumably) common structural materials are easier to source, and those to make solar collectors are also common.



                    If all the high quality conductors in the Earth were tied up in fusion generators, it would still be possible to collect more energy from solar emissions, if one could cover enough of the sky -- and eventually, if our civilization lasts long enough, we'll need that energy badly enough to begin construction of a Dyson sphere.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$















                      3












                      3








                      3





                      $begingroup$

                      The commonly given reason for building any version of a Dyson Sphere is because the civilization needs an amount of energy comparable to the output of their star. A Dyson sphere captures a significant fraction of that ouput, and does it more or less passively.



                      I would posit that a civilization could not create a Dyson sphere without first having fusion (both for electrical/thermal power, and for space propulsion), because of the tremendous amount of matter that needs to be moved around. There comes a time, however, when the materials (copper or superconductor precursors, for instance) to make fusion devices become too scarce, while (presumably) common structural materials are easier to source, and those to make solar collectors are also common.



                      If all the high quality conductors in the Earth were tied up in fusion generators, it would still be possible to collect more energy from solar emissions, if one could cover enough of the sky -- and eventually, if our civilization lasts long enough, we'll need that energy badly enough to begin construction of a Dyson sphere.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      The commonly given reason for building any version of a Dyson Sphere is because the civilization needs an amount of energy comparable to the output of their star. A Dyson sphere captures a significant fraction of that ouput, and does it more or less passively.



                      I would posit that a civilization could not create a Dyson sphere without first having fusion (both for electrical/thermal power, and for space propulsion), because of the tremendous amount of matter that needs to be moved around. There comes a time, however, when the materials (copper or superconductor precursors, for instance) to make fusion devices become too scarce, while (presumably) common structural materials are easier to source, and those to make solar collectors are also common.



                      If all the high quality conductors in the Earth were tied up in fusion generators, it would still be possible to collect more energy from solar emissions, if one could cover enough of the sky -- and eventually, if our civilization lasts long enough, we'll need that energy badly enough to begin construction of a Dyson sphere.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 8 hours ago









                      Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon

                      6,2911131




                      6,2911131





















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          So, I'm going to frame challenge this, and say "no alien civilization entirely surrounds their stars with solar collectors."



                          Piecewise assembly



                          Here's the thing about a Dyson Swarm: It's not a single massive project that returns nothing until it's complete.



                          All you need is solar-orbiting structures that (also) collect solar power, and some sort of orbital traffic control. As long as people keep building orbital structures, the power collected by the system increases, and eventually you get a Dyson swarm. No one ever decides one day "we should make a Dyson swarm." Instead they decide to make one (or some other reasonable number) of solar-orbiting structures. They quickly get the benefit of that structure - whether it's a habitat, research structure, manufacturing hub, etc.



                          But then what?



                          This continues until either the unused mass in the system vanishes or the civilization kills itself. Once the unused mass in the system is gone, no more structures will be put around the star. Sure, going to another star is possible, but why bother to ship the mass back? Power is power, regardless of where you get it. Interstellar shipping is expensive in terms of energy. And, as you said, having your entire civilization in one place is a bad idea.



                          Therefore, advanced alien civilizations put partial Dyson swarms around every star they can get their mitts on. No star is ever fully surrounded.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$

















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            So, I'm going to frame challenge this, and say "no alien civilization entirely surrounds their stars with solar collectors."



                            Piecewise assembly



                            Here's the thing about a Dyson Swarm: It's not a single massive project that returns nothing until it's complete.



                            All you need is solar-orbiting structures that (also) collect solar power, and some sort of orbital traffic control. As long as people keep building orbital structures, the power collected by the system increases, and eventually you get a Dyson swarm. No one ever decides one day "we should make a Dyson swarm." Instead they decide to make one (or some other reasonable number) of solar-orbiting structures. They quickly get the benefit of that structure - whether it's a habitat, research structure, manufacturing hub, etc.



                            But then what?



                            This continues until either the unused mass in the system vanishes or the civilization kills itself. Once the unused mass in the system is gone, no more structures will be put around the star. Sure, going to another star is possible, but why bother to ship the mass back? Power is power, regardless of where you get it. Interstellar shipping is expensive in terms of energy. And, as you said, having your entire civilization in one place is a bad idea.



                            Therefore, advanced alien civilizations put partial Dyson swarms around every star they can get their mitts on. No star is ever fully surrounded.






                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$















                              1












                              1








                              1





                              $begingroup$

                              So, I'm going to frame challenge this, and say "no alien civilization entirely surrounds their stars with solar collectors."



                              Piecewise assembly



                              Here's the thing about a Dyson Swarm: It's not a single massive project that returns nothing until it's complete.



                              All you need is solar-orbiting structures that (also) collect solar power, and some sort of orbital traffic control. As long as people keep building orbital structures, the power collected by the system increases, and eventually you get a Dyson swarm. No one ever decides one day "we should make a Dyson swarm." Instead they decide to make one (or some other reasonable number) of solar-orbiting structures. They quickly get the benefit of that structure - whether it's a habitat, research structure, manufacturing hub, etc.



                              But then what?



                              This continues until either the unused mass in the system vanishes or the civilization kills itself. Once the unused mass in the system is gone, no more structures will be put around the star. Sure, going to another star is possible, but why bother to ship the mass back? Power is power, regardless of where you get it. Interstellar shipping is expensive in terms of energy. And, as you said, having your entire civilization in one place is a bad idea.



                              Therefore, advanced alien civilizations put partial Dyson swarms around every star they can get their mitts on. No star is ever fully surrounded.






                              share|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



                              So, I'm going to frame challenge this, and say "no alien civilization entirely surrounds their stars with solar collectors."



                              Piecewise assembly



                              Here's the thing about a Dyson Swarm: It's not a single massive project that returns nothing until it's complete.



                              All you need is solar-orbiting structures that (also) collect solar power, and some sort of orbital traffic control. As long as people keep building orbital structures, the power collected by the system increases, and eventually you get a Dyson swarm. No one ever decides one day "we should make a Dyson swarm." Instead they decide to make one (or some other reasonable number) of solar-orbiting structures. They quickly get the benefit of that structure - whether it's a habitat, research structure, manufacturing hub, etc.



                              But then what?



                              This continues until either the unused mass in the system vanishes or the civilization kills itself. Once the unused mass in the system is gone, no more structures will be put around the star. Sure, going to another star is possible, but why bother to ship the mass back? Power is power, regardless of where you get it. Interstellar shipping is expensive in terms of energy. And, as you said, having your entire civilization in one place is a bad idea.



                              Therefore, advanced alien civilizations put partial Dyson swarms around every star they can get their mitts on. No star is ever fully surrounded.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered 4 hours ago









                              ltmauveltmauve

                              3,281822




                              3,281822





















                                  1












                                  $begingroup$

                                  Defense.



                                  Your civilization has built up its system. It can meet its energy needs through fusion and more esoteric sources. But the sun is aging and as it ages, it becomes brighter.



                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_age_estimation#Luminosity_increase_and_the_Hertzsprung–Russell_diagram



                                  The civilization does not need all that energy. Really does not need it - it is throwing things out of balance and threatening the habitability of terraformed planets closer to the star.



                                  The answer is to soak up the extra. The Dyson sphere is a defensive maneuver to regulate the output of the star. It is analogous to damming a river - it is nice to have the river by your town but it is also potentially destructive. Its power output must be controlled and channeled.



                                  The Dyson sphere reradiates output to simulate the younger star, and captures and converts the excess. The question of what to do with excess energy is an interesting one. Maybe they convert it back to matter.






                                  share|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$

















                                    1












                                    $begingroup$

                                    Defense.



                                    Your civilization has built up its system. It can meet its energy needs through fusion and more esoteric sources. But the sun is aging and as it ages, it becomes brighter.



                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_age_estimation#Luminosity_increase_and_the_Hertzsprung–Russell_diagram



                                    The civilization does not need all that energy. Really does not need it - it is throwing things out of balance and threatening the habitability of terraformed planets closer to the star.



                                    The answer is to soak up the extra. The Dyson sphere is a defensive maneuver to regulate the output of the star. It is analogous to damming a river - it is nice to have the river by your town but it is also potentially destructive. Its power output must be controlled and channeled.



                                    The Dyson sphere reradiates output to simulate the younger star, and captures and converts the excess. The question of what to do with excess energy is an interesting one. Maybe they convert it back to matter.






                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$















                                      1












                                      1








                                      1





                                      $begingroup$

                                      Defense.



                                      Your civilization has built up its system. It can meet its energy needs through fusion and more esoteric sources. But the sun is aging and as it ages, it becomes brighter.



                                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_age_estimation#Luminosity_increase_and_the_Hertzsprung–Russell_diagram



                                      The civilization does not need all that energy. Really does not need it - it is throwing things out of balance and threatening the habitability of terraformed planets closer to the star.



                                      The answer is to soak up the extra. The Dyson sphere is a defensive maneuver to regulate the output of the star. It is analogous to damming a river - it is nice to have the river by your town but it is also potentially destructive. Its power output must be controlled and channeled.



                                      The Dyson sphere reradiates output to simulate the younger star, and captures and converts the excess. The question of what to do with excess energy is an interesting one. Maybe they convert it back to matter.






                                      share|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      Defense.



                                      Your civilization has built up its system. It can meet its energy needs through fusion and more esoteric sources. But the sun is aging and as it ages, it becomes brighter.



                                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_age_estimation#Luminosity_increase_and_the_Hertzsprung–Russell_diagram



                                      The civilization does not need all that energy. Really does not need it - it is throwing things out of balance and threatening the habitability of terraformed planets closer to the star.



                                      The answer is to soak up the extra. The Dyson sphere is a defensive maneuver to regulate the output of the star. It is analogous to damming a river - it is nice to have the river by your town but it is also potentially destructive. Its power output must be controlled and channeled.



                                      The Dyson sphere reradiates output to simulate the younger star, and captures and converts the excess. The question of what to do with excess energy is an interesting one. Maybe they convert it back to matter.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered 4 hours ago









                                      WillkWillk

                                      127k30237528




                                      127k30237528




















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