Quasar RedshiftsWhy do we have the cosmological constant?Conundrum involving distance to object, universal expansion, age of universe, etcDifference between quasar and Active Galactic Nuclei?Black hole darkness a result of gravity or temporal distortion?Are all planets/galaxies moving away from *us*?“True” motionlessness - red shifts and CMBIs there an official list of objects in the sky?Could a contracting Universe create the redshift effect observed by Hubble?Are quasars simply AGNs that are viewed from a particular angle?Using emission lines to determine redshift of a quasar
Oil draining out shortly after turbo hose detached/broke
How can I list the different hex characters between two files?
Why is it bad to use your whole foot in rock climbing
Was self-modifying code possible using BASIC?
Create a cube from identical 3D objects
Mathematica 12 has gotten worse at solving simple equations?
What exactly "triggers an additional time" in the interaction between Afterlife and Teysa Karlov?
What does "lit." mean in boiling point or melting point specification?
Course development: can I pay someone to make slides for the course?
What do I need to do, tax-wise, for a sudden windfall?
Should I explain the reasons for gaslighting?
Suppose leased car is totalled: what are financial implications?
Make Gimbap cutter
What would the consequences be of a high number of solar systems being within close proximity to one another?
What's the best way to quit a job mostly because of money?
When to use и or а as “and”?
How to make a composition of functions prettier?
What does this line mean in Zelazny's The Courts of Chaos?
Is it true that "only photographers care about noise"?
Convert GE Load Center to main breaker
How can powerful telekinesis avoid violating Newton's 3rd Law?
Why did Robert pick unworthy men for the White Cloaks?
What is this object?
How much web presence should I have?
Quasar Redshifts
Why do we have the cosmological constant?Conundrum involving distance to object, universal expansion, age of universe, etcDifference between quasar and Active Galactic Nuclei?Black hole darkness a result of gravity or temporal distortion?Are all planets/galaxies moving away from *us*?“True” motionlessness - red shifts and CMBIs there an official list of objects in the sky?Could a contracting Universe create the redshift effect observed by Hubble?Are quasars simply AGNs that are viewed from a particular angle?Using emission lines to determine redshift of a quasar
$begingroup$
How can the gravitational redshift of a very distant quasar be distinguished from its cosmological redshift? Quasars are very massive objects,thought to be supermassive black holes,so therefore must have substantial gravitational red shift,but they are so far away they must also have a cosmological redshift. Is it possible to distinguish one from the other?
redshift quasars
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How can the gravitational redshift of a very distant quasar be distinguished from its cosmological redshift? Quasars are very massive objects,thought to be supermassive black holes,so therefore must have substantial gravitational red shift,but they are so far away they must also have a cosmological redshift. Is it possible to distinguish one from the other?
redshift quasars
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How can the gravitational redshift of a very distant quasar be distinguished from its cosmological redshift? Quasars are very massive objects,thought to be supermassive black holes,so therefore must have substantial gravitational red shift,but they are so far away they must also have a cosmological redshift. Is it possible to distinguish one from the other?
redshift quasars
$endgroup$
How can the gravitational redshift of a very distant quasar be distinguished from its cosmological redshift? Quasars are very massive objects,thought to be supermassive black holes,so therefore must have substantial gravitational red shift,but they are so far away they must also have a cosmological redshift. Is it possible to distinguish one from the other?
redshift quasars
redshift quasars
asked 10 hours ago
Michael WalsbyMichael Walsby
654
654
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The optical emission lines of quasars do not come from sufficiently close the the central supermassive black hole to be appreciably gravitationally redshifted.
If they did arise from gas near the "innermost stable circular orbit", then the maximum gravitational redshift would be about 0.2. In addition, the lines would have a characteristic profile caused by a combination of gravitational redshift and the blue/redshift and Doppler boosting caused by the fast-moving gas (such line profiles are sometimes seen at X-ray wavelengths). Of course many if not most quasars have redshifts that far exceed 0.2 and can only be explained by cosmic expansion.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Both cosmological redshifts, and gravitational redshifts, can be thought of as coming from the same source-- the equations of general relativity. In that sense, the distinction between them is somewhat artificial, though useful, but they are redshifts that affect all the lines in the same way. So there is no way to disentangle their effects, other than to model both of their sources. This is not so unusual-- if you have normal Doppler shifts in a reference frame where you don't know the motion of either the source or the detector, then the Doppler shift registered will represent a combination of those motions that you cannot disentangle simply from what you observe-- you will have to model the effects of all contributing effects.
That generally means you need to bring in more independent information, such that you can test your models. In the case of quasars, you could look for quasars that appear to be similar except for their distance from you, and then you can assume their gravitational redshift is similar but their cosmological redshift is very different. In particular, you can have relatively nearby quasars that do not have a lot of cosmological redshift, perhaps even comparable to their gravitational redshift. And you can have very distant ones that are predominantly cosmological redshifts. You can also use the fact that the cosmological redshift is the same for all the lines of a given quasar, but gravitational redshifts will depend on how deep in the gravity well each line forms. There is also a connection between where a line forms and what its Doppler shift is, because the gas is generally moving, so we even have a third source of frequency shift, but it connects with gravitational redshift in ways that alter the line shape. So we have new information from line shape, that allows the models to be tested, even though we must combine no less than three separate sources of frequency shift (special relativistic, general relativistic due to local gravity, general relativistic due to global effects of the expanding universe).
You have other information also, such as temperatures and Doppler shifts, and time dependence, so you put all that together and you try to model the quasar. That's the only way to disentangle the redshifts, you need self-consistent models that succeed at producing a wide range of observables. Remember that we had quasar spectra for many years before we were even able to figure out what they were, and debate still continues about the sources of the various spectral components.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "514"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fastronomy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f32237%2fquasar-redshifts%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The optical emission lines of quasars do not come from sufficiently close the the central supermassive black hole to be appreciably gravitationally redshifted.
If they did arise from gas near the "innermost stable circular orbit", then the maximum gravitational redshift would be about 0.2. In addition, the lines would have a characteristic profile caused by a combination of gravitational redshift and the blue/redshift and Doppler boosting caused by the fast-moving gas (such line profiles are sometimes seen at X-ray wavelengths). Of course many if not most quasars have redshifts that far exceed 0.2 and can only be explained by cosmic expansion.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The optical emission lines of quasars do not come from sufficiently close the the central supermassive black hole to be appreciably gravitationally redshifted.
If they did arise from gas near the "innermost stable circular orbit", then the maximum gravitational redshift would be about 0.2. In addition, the lines would have a characteristic profile caused by a combination of gravitational redshift and the blue/redshift and Doppler boosting caused by the fast-moving gas (such line profiles are sometimes seen at X-ray wavelengths). Of course many if not most quasars have redshifts that far exceed 0.2 and can only be explained by cosmic expansion.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The optical emission lines of quasars do not come from sufficiently close the the central supermassive black hole to be appreciably gravitationally redshifted.
If they did arise from gas near the "innermost stable circular orbit", then the maximum gravitational redshift would be about 0.2. In addition, the lines would have a characteristic profile caused by a combination of gravitational redshift and the blue/redshift and Doppler boosting caused by the fast-moving gas (such line profiles are sometimes seen at X-ray wavelengths). Of course many if not most quasars have redshifts that far exceed 0.2 and can only be explained by cosmic expansion.
$endgroup$
The optical emission lines of quasars do not come from sufficiently close the the central supermassive black hole to be appreciably gravitationally redshifted.
If they did arise from gas near the "innermost stable circular orbit", then the maximum gravitational redshift would be about 0.2. In addition, the lines would have a characteristic profile caused by a combination of gravitational redshift and the blue/redshift and Doppler boosting caused by the fast-moving gas (such line profiles are sometimes seen at X-ray wavelengths). Of course many if not most quasars have redshifts that far exceed 0.2 and can only be explained by cosmic expansion.
answered 8 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
55.9k4116184
55.9k4116184
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Both cosmological redshifts, and gravitational redshifts, can be thought of as coming from the same source-- the equations of general relativity. In that sense, the distinction between them is somewhat artificial, though useful, but they are redshifts that affect all the lines in the same way. So there is no way to disentangle their effects, other than to model both of their sources. This is not so unusual-- if you have normal Doppler shifts in a reference frame where you don't know the motion of either the source or the detector, then the Doppler shift registered will represent a combination of those motions that you cannot disentangle simply from what you observe-- you will have to model the effects of all contributing effects.
That generally means you need to bring in more independent information, such that you can test your models. In the case of quasars, you could look for quasars that appear to be similar except for their distance from you, and then you can assume their gravitational redshift is similar but their cosmological redshift is very different. In particular, you can have relatively nearby quasars that do not have a lot of cosmological redshift, perhaps even comparable to their gravitational redshift. And you can have very distant ones that are predominantly cosmological redshifts. You can also use the fact that the cosmological redshift is the same for all the lines of a given quasar, but gravitational redshifts will depend on how deep in the gravity well each line forms. There is also a connection between where a line forms and what its Doppler shift is, because the gas is generally moving, so we even have a third source of frequency shift, but it connects with gravitational redshift in ways that alter the line shape. So we have new information from line shape, that allows the models to be tested, even though we must combine no less than three separate sources of frequency shift (special relativistic, general relativistic due to local gravity, general relativistic due to global effects of the expanding universe).
You have other information also, such as temperatures and Doppler shifts, and time dependence, so you put all that together and you try to model the quasar. That's the only way to disentangle the redshifts, you need self-consistent models that succeed at producing a wide range of observables. Remember that we had quasar spectra for many years before we were even able to figure out what they were, and debate still continues about the sources of the various spectral components.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Both cosmological redshifts, and gravitational redshifts, can be thought of as coming from the same source-- the equations of general relativity. In that sense, the distinction between them is somewhat artificial, though useful, but they are redshifts that affect all the lines in the same way. So there is no way to disentangle their effects, other than to model both of their sources. This is not so unusual-- if you have normal Doppler shifts in a reference frame where you don't know the motion of either the source or the detector, then the Doppler shift registered will represent a combination of those motions that you cannot disentangle simply from what you observe-- you will have to model the effects of all contributing effects.
That generally means you need to bring in more independent information, such that you can test your models. In the case of quasars, you could look for quasars that appear to be similar except for their distance from you, and then you can assume their gravitational redshift is similar but their cosmological redshift is very different. In particular, you can have relatively nearby quasars that do not have a lot of cosmological redshift, perhaps even comparable to their gravitational redshift. And you can have very distant ones that are predominantly cosmological redshifts. You can also use the fact that the cosmological redshift is the same for all the lines of a given quasar, but gravitational redshifts will depend on how deep in the gravity well each line forms. There is also a connection between where a line forms and what its Doppler shift is, because the gas is generally moving, so we even have a third source of frequency shift, but it connects with gravitational redshift in ways that alter the line shape. So we have new information from line shape, that allows the models to be tested, even though we must combine no less than three separate sources of frequency shift (special relativistic, general relativistic due to local gravity, general relativistic due to global effects of the expanding universe).
You have other information also, such as temperatures and Doppler shifts, and time dependence, so you put all that together and you try to model the quasar. That's the only way to disentangle the redshifts, you need self-consistent models that succeed at producing a wide range of observables. Remember that we had quasar spectra for many years before we were even able to figure out what they were, and debate still continues about the sources of the various spectral components.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Both cosmological redshifts, and gravitational redshifts, can be thought of as coming from the same source-- the equations of general relativity. In that sense, the distinction between them is somewhat artificial, though useful, but they are redshifts that affect all the lines in the same way. So there is no way to disentangle their effects, other than to model both of their sources. This is not so unusual-- if you have normal Doppler shifts in a reference frame where you don't know the motion of either the source or the detector, then the Doppler shift registered will represent a combination of those motions that you cannot disentangle simply from what you observe-- you will have to model the effects of all contributing effects.
That generally means you need to bring in more independent information, such that you can test your models. In the case of quasars, you could look for quasars that appear to be similar except for their distance from you, and then you can assume their gravitational redshift is similar but their cosmological redshift is very different. In particular, you can have relatively nearby quasars that do not have a lot of cosmological redshift, perhaps even comparable to their gravitational redshift. And you can have very distant ones that are predominantly cosmological redshifts. You can also use the fact that the cosmological redshift is the same for all the lines of a given quasar, but gravitational redshifts will depend on how deep in the gravity well each line forms. There is also a connection between where a line forms and what its Doppler shift is, because the gas is generally moving, so we even have a third source of frequency shift, but it connects with gravitational redshift in ways that alter the line shape. So we have new information from line shape, that allows the models to be tested, even though we must combine no less than three separate sources of frequency shift (special relativistic, general relativistic due to local gravity, general relativistic due to global effects of the expanding universe).
You have other information also, such as temperatures and Doppler shifts, and time dependence, so you put all that together and you try to model the quasar. That's the only way to disentangle the redshifts, you need self-consistent models that succeed at producing a wide range of observables. Remember that we had quasar spectra for many years before we were even able to figure out what they were, and debate still continues about the sources of the various spectral components.
$endgroup$
Both cosmological redshifts, and gravitational redshifts, can be thought of as coming from the same source-- the equations of general relativity. In that sense, the distinction between them is somewhat artificial, though useful, but they are redshifts that affect all the lines in the same way. So there is no way to disentangle their effects, other than to model both of their sources. This is not so unusual-- if you have normal Doppler shifts in a reference frame where you don't know the motion of either the source or the detector, then the Doppler shift registered will represent a combination of those motions that you cannot disentangle simply from what you observe-- you will have to model the effects of all contributing effects.
That generally means you need to bring in more independent information, such that you can test your models. In the case of quasars, you could look for quasars that appear to be similar except for their distance from you, and then you can assume their gravitational redshift is similar but their cosmological redshift is very different. In particular, you can have relatively nearby quasars that do not have a lot of cosmological redshift, perhaps even comparable to their gravitational redshift. And you can have very distant ones that are predominantly cosmological redshifts. You can also use the fact that the cosmological redshift is the same for all the lines of a given quasar, but gravitational redshifts will depend on how deep in the gravity well each line forms. There is also a connection between where a line forms and what its Doppler shift is, because the gas is generally moving, so we even have a third source of frequency shift, but it connects with gravitational redshift in ways that alter the line shape. So we have new information from line shape, that allows the models to be tested, even though we must combine no less than three separate sources of frequency shift (special relativistic, general relativistic due to local gravity, general relativistic due to global effects of the expanding universe).
You have other information also, such as temperatures and Doppler shifts, and time dependence, so you put all that together and you try to model the quasar. That's the only way to disentangle the redshifts, you need self-consistent models that succeed at producing a wide range of observables. Remember that we had quasar spectra for many years before we were even able to figure out what they were, and debate still continues about the sources of the various spectral components.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
Ken GKen G
4,5531716
4,5531716
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Astronomy Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fastronomy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f32237%2fquasar-redshifts%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown