Bb13b9 confusionKnowing what chord to play next?Is there any theory to decide a set of plausible chords per measure where a whole melody of a song is given?Chord Progressions Including Majors That Should Be MinorsReplicating chord tonesWhy does most “Country” Music use mostly major and minor plain simple chords?Exhaustive list of chord (at least triad and dom7) functions for a software ear training toolWhat is the most efficient way to memorize chord changes?Is there any compendium mapping chord progressions to mood and sentiments?How to build chords from a single note?Calculating the distance of chords

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Bb13b9 confusion


Knowing what chord to play next?Is there any theory to decide a set of plausible chords per measure where a whole melody of a song is given?Chord Progressions Including Majors That Should Be MinorsReplicating chord tonesWhy does most “Country” Music use mostly major and minor plain simple chords?Exhaustive list of chord (at least triad and dom7) functions for a software ear training toolWhat is the most efficient way to memorize chord changes?Is there any compendium mapping chord progressions to mood and sentiments?How to build chords from a single note?Calculating the distance of chords













5















Sorry simple question but how do you avoid confusion when writing a chord like Bb13b9? It can be read as either B with a b13 and a b9 or Bb with a 13 and a b9. I suppose context but I am wondering if there is a formal way of writing these different chords for clarity?



Another confusing one is Gb13, is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?



Ps I found both examples while playing Naima. In this context it is a G melody note on a B chord so it is b13, although over a Bb pedal to add to the confusion, at least for me!



Thanks!










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Another distinguishing factor is that if both the 9th and 13th are altered, the 9th should come before the 13th in the chord name.

    – user45266
    3 hours ago















5















Sorry simple question but how do you avoid confusion when writing a chord like Bb13b9? It can be read as either B with a b13 and a b9 or Bb with a 13 and a b9. I suppose context but I am wondering if there is a formal way of writing these different chords for clarity?



Another confusing one is Gb13, is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?



Ps I found both examples while playing Naima. In this context it is a G melody note on a B chord so it is b13, although over a Bb pedal to add to the confusion, at least for me!



Thanks!










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Another distinguishing factor is that if both the 9th and 13th are altered, the 9th should come before the 13th in the chord name.

    – user45266
    3 hours ago













5












5








5








Sorry simple question but how do you avoid confusion when writing a chord like Bb13b9? It can be read as either B with a b13 and a b9 or Bb with a 13 and a b9. I suppose context but I am wondering if there is a formal way of writing these different chords for clarity?



Another confusing one is Gb13, is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?



Ps I found both examples while playing Naima. In this context it is a G melody note on a B chord so it is b13, although over a Bb pedal to add to the confusion, at least for me!



Thanks!










share|improve this question
















Sorry simple question but how do you avoid confusion when writing a chord like Bb13b9? It can be read as either B with a b13 and a b9 or Bb with a 13 and a b9. I suppose context but I am wondering if there is a formal way of writing these different chords for clarity?



Another confusing one is Gb13, is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?



Ps I found both examples while playing Naima. In this context it is a G melody note on a B chord so it is b13, although over a Bb pedal to add to the confusion, at least for me!



Thanks!







chords chord-theory chord-progressions






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 9 hours ago







Babaluma

















asked 9 hours ago









BabalumaBabaluma

1327




1327







  • 1





    Another distinguishing factor is that if both the 9th and 13th are altered, the 9th should come before the 13th in the chord name.

    – user45266
    3 hours ago












  • 1





    Another distinguishing factor is that if both the 9th and 13th are altered, the 9th should come before the 13th in the chord name.

    – user45266
    3 hours ago







1




1





Another distinguishing factor is that if both the 9th and 13th are altered, the 9th should come before the 13th in the chord name.

– user45266
3 hours ago





Another distinguishing factor is that if both the 9th and 13th are altered, the 9th should come before the 13th in the chord name.

– user45266
3 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















5














To disambiguate (G♭)(13) from (G)(♭13), use superscripts: G♭13, G♭13.



Wikipedia shows examples like example. Here, the flat isn't superscripted, so what it modifies is the G. Even without the flat and the M7, the sharp is superscripted, so it modifies the 5 instead of the G.






share|improve this answer

























  • You can use the html sub and sup tags.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    9 hours ago











  • Thanks! Replaced the MathJax complaint with <sup>...</sup>.

    – Camille Goudeseune
    9 hours ago


















3














Superscript is the ideal, but...



But these pages...



  • https://bretpimentel.com/jazz-chord-symbols-a-primer-for-the-classically-trained/

  • http://musictheoryprof.com/2014/05/how-to-interpret-chord-symbols/

  • http://music.arts.uci.edu/dobrian/f14/music16D/dobrianchordsymbols.htm

...seem to show some kind of convention to use parentheses if for some reason superscript is not an option...





Bb + 13 => Bb(13)

Bb + b13 => Bb(b13) or just Bbb13

B + 13 => B(13) or just B13

B + b13 => B(b13)






share|improve this answer























  • Personally, I'm a huge fan of parentheses. They're super useful: not only do I not have to write "add" every single time, I can also make my chord symbols easier to read, like you said. They also help the reader see the extensions as seprate from the underlying chord.

    – user45266
    3 hours ago


















2














Any time chord symbols are written like this, the first part is always the root. B♭9♭13 is always a 9♭13 chord built on the note B♭. If the composer wanted a B chord with a flat ninth, he/she would have made it clear, via "Badd♭9♭13" or "B(♭9♭13)". Makes sense because altered extensions must either come after some kind of natural extension (B7♭9, where the 7 separates the accidental automatically), or is notated with some kind of "add" or otherwise separated.



If there's an accidental after a note name, it modifies the root, not the following extension.



C♭9 versus C(♭9). Very different, but both are unambiguous.




Related: Most people I've met prefer altered extensions be listed from lowest to highest, e.g. A(9♯11♭13), not A(♭13♭9).






share|improve this answer

























  • I always see e.g. (add9) when adding chord tones to chords that don't contain a 7th. I don't think I've ever seen C(9) to indicate a C(add9), and I don't think I've ever seen a C(addb9) at all. Every time I see extensions in parentheses, they are altered extensions, and they belong to a 7th chord; or at least that is how it seems....

    – David Bowling
    2 hours ago


















1














Bb13b9 can only be one thing, but that can be made more clear by using parentheses: Bb13(b9).



It is common to put altered extensions and added notes in parentheses at the end of a chord name. Also note that altered extensions are typically written in ascending order, so an altered B7 might look like B7(b9b13), or even B7b9b13, but rarely (if ever) B7b13b9, or even B7(b13b9).



In the absence of a 7th, with unaltered extensions, you might have Bb6/9, but a triad with added altered extensions would be pretty rare.



Similarly, Gb13 can only be one thing. A G chord with an added b13 would be notated explicitly as an added tone chord: G(addb13) or G(addEb). But G(addEb) would be an uncommon chord since altered extensions are usually added to seventh chords, but not to triads. So a Gb13 is just a G13 transposed down a half-step.



But, note that Gb13 is neither of the options suggested in the OP: "is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?" A G13 is a G7 with added 9th, 11th, and 13th extensions. It is very common to omit the 9th and 11th (and possibly the 5th), but the 7th and 13th must stay. So a G13 is at least G7 with an added 13 (E), and a Gb13 is at least Gb7 with and added 13 (Eb).






share|improve this answer

























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    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes








    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    5














    To disambiguate (G♭)(13) from (G)(♭13), use superscripts: G♭13, G♭13.



    Wikipedia shows examples like example. Here, the flat isn't superscripted, so what it modifies is the G. Even without the flat and the M7, the sharp is superscripted, so it modifies the 5 instead of the G.






    share|improve this answer

























    • You can use the html sub and sup tags.

      – Your Uncle Bob
      9 hours ago











    • Thanks! Replaced the MathJax complaint with <sup>...</sup>.

      – Camille Goudeseune
      9 hours ago















    5














    To disambiguate (G♭)(13) from (G)(♭13), use superscripts: G♭13, G♭13.



    Wikipedia shows examples like example. Here, the flat isn't superscripted, so what it modifies is the G. Even without the flat and the M7, the sharp is superscripted, so it modifies the 5 instead of the G.






    share|improve this answer

























    • You can use the html sub and sup tags.

      – Your Uncle Bob
      9 hours ago











    • Thanks! Replaced the MathJax complaint with <sup>...</sup>.

      – Camille Goudeseune
      9 hours ago













    5












    5








    5







    To disambiguate (G♭)(13) from (G)(♭13), use superscripts: G♭13, G♭13.



    Wikipedia shows examples like example. Here, the flat isn't superscripted, so what it modifies is the G. Even without the flat and the M7, the sharp is superscripted, so it modifies the 5 instead of the G.






    share|improve this answer















    To disambiguate (G♭)(13) from (G)(♭13), use superscripts: G♭13, G♭13.



    Wikipedia shows examples like example. Here, the flat isn't superscripted, so what it modifies is the G. Even without the flat and the M7, the sharp is superscripted, so it modifies the 5 instead of the G.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 9 hours ago

























    answered 9 hours ago









    Camille GoudeseuneCamille Goudeseune

    1,279815




    1,279815












    • You can use the html sub and sup tags.

      – Your Uncle Bob
      9 hours ago











    • Thanks! Replaced the MathJax complaint with <sup>...</sup>.

      – Camille Goudeseune
      9 hours ago

















    • You can use the html sub and sup tags.

      – Your Uncle Bob
      9 hours ago











    • Thanks! Replaced the MathJax complaint with <sup>...</sup>.

      – Camille Goudeseune
      9 hours ago
















    You can use the html sub and sup tags.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    9 hours ago





    You can use the html sub and sup tags.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    9 hours ago













    Thanks! Replaced the MathJax complaint with <sup>...</sup>.

    – Camille Goudeseune
    9 hours ago





    Thanks! Replaced the MathJax complaint with <sup>...</sup>.

    – Camille Goudeseune
    9 hours ago











    3














    Superscript is the ideal, but...



    But these pages...



    • https://bretpimentel.com/jazz-chord-symbols-a-primer-for-the-classically-trained/

    • http://musictheoryprof.com/2014/05/how-to-interpret-chord-symbols/

    • http://music.arts.uci.edu/dobrian/f14/music16D/dobrianchordsymbols.htm

    ...seem to show some kind of convention to use parentheses if for some reason superscript is not an option...





    Bb + 13 => Bb(13)

    Bb + b13 => Bb(b13) or just Bbb13

    B + 13 => B(13) or just B13

    B + b13 => B(b13)






    share|improve this answer























    • Personally, I'm a huge fan of parentheses. They're super useful: not only do I not have to write "add" every single time, I can also make my chord symbols easier to read, like you said. They also help the reader see the extensions as seprate from the underlying chord.

      – user45266
      3 hours ago















    3














    Superscript is the ideal, but...



    But these pages...



    • https://bretpimentel.com/jazz-chord-symbols-a-primer-for-the-classically-trained/

    • http://musictheoryprof.com/2014/05/how-to-interpret-chord-symbols/

    • http://music.arts.uci.edu/dobrian/f14/music16D/dobrianchordsymbols.htm

    ...seem to show some kind of convention to use parentheses if for some reason superscript is not an option...





    Bb + 13 => Bb(13)

    Bb + b13 => Bb(b13) or just Bbb13

    B + 13 => B(13) or just B13

    B + b13 => B(b13)






    share|improve this answer























    • Personally, I'm a huge fan of parentheses. They're super useful: not only do I not have to write "add" every single time, I can also make my chord symbols easier to read, like you said. They also help the reader see the extensions as seprate from the underlying chord.

      – user45266
      3 hours ago













    3












    3








    3







    Superscript is the ideal, but...



    But these pages...



    • https://bretpimentel.com/jazz-chord-symbols-a-primer-for-the-classically-trained/

    • http://musictheoryprof.com/2014/05/how-to-interpret-chord-symbols/

    • http://music.arts.uci.edu/dobrian/f14/music16D/dobrianchordsymbols.htm

    ...seem to show some kind of convention to use parentheses if for some reason superscript is not an option...





    Bb + 13 => Bb(13)

    Bb + b13 => Bb(b13) or just Bbb13

    B + 13 => B(13) or just B13

    B + b13 => B(b13)






    share|improve this answer













    Superscript is the ideal, but...



    But these pages...



    • https://bretpimentel.com/jazz-chord-symbols-a-primer-for-the-classically-trained/

    • http://musictheoryprof.com/2014/05/how-to-interpret-chord-symbols/

    • http://music.arts.uci.edu/dobrian/f14/music16D/dobrianchordsymbols.htm

    ...seem to show some kind of convention to use parentheses if for some reason superscript is not an option...





    Bb + 13 => Bb(13)

    Bb + b13 => Bb(b13) or just Bbb13

    B + 13 => B(13) or just B13

    B + b13 => B(b13)







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 9 hours ago









    Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

    14.5k1051




    14.5k1051












    • Personally, I'm a huge fan of parentheses. They're super useful: not only do I not have to write "add" every single time, I can also make my chord symbols easier to read, like you said. They also help the reader see the extensions as seprate from the underlying chord.

      – user45266
      3 hours ago

















    • Personally, I'm a huge fan of parentheses. They're super useful: not only do I not have to write "add" every single time, I can also make my chord symbols easier to read, like you said. They also help the reader see the extensions as seprate from the underlying chord.

      – user45266
      3 hours ago
















    Personally, I'm a huge fan of parentheses. They're super useful: not only do I not have to write "add" every single time, I can also make my chord symbols easier to read, like you said. They also help the reader see the extensions as seprate from the underlying chord.

    – user45266
    3 hours ago





    Personally, I'm a huge fan of parentheses. They're super useful: not only do I not have to write "add" every single time, I can also make my chord symbols easier to read, like you said. They also help the reader see the extensions as seprate from the underlying chord.

    – user45266
    3 hours ago











    2














    Any time chord symbols are written like this, the first part is always the root. B♭9♭13 is always a 9♭13 chord built on the note B♭. If the composer wanted a B chord with a flat ninth, he/she would have made it clear, via "Badd♭9♭13" or "B(♭9♭13)". Makes sense because altered extensions must either come after some kind of natural extension (B7♭9, where the 7 separates the accidental automatically), or is notated with some kind of "add" or otherwise separated.



    If there's an accidental after a note name, it modifies the root, not the following extension.



    C♭9 versus C(♭9). Very different, but both are unambiguous.




    Related: Most people I've met prefer altered extensions be listed from lowest to highest, e.g. A(9♯11♭13), not A(♭13♭9).






    share|improve this answer

























    • I always see e.g. (add9) when adding chord tones to chords that don't contain a 7th. I don't think I've ever seen C(9) to indicate a C(add9), and I don't think I've ever seen a C(addb9) at all. Every time I see extensions in parentheses, they are altered extensions, and they belong to a 7th chord; or at least that is how it seems....

      – David Bowling
      2 hours ago















    2














    Any time chord symbols are written like this, the first part is always the root. B♭9♭13 is always a 9♭13 chord built on the note B♭. If the composer wanted a B chord with a flat ninth, he/she would have made it clear, via "Badd♭9♭13" or "B(♭9♭13)". Makes sense because altered extensions must either come after some kind of natural extension (B7♭9, where the 7 separates the accidental automatically), or is notated with some kind of "add" or otherwise separated.



    If there's an accidental after a note name, it modifies the root, not the following extension.



    C♭9 versus C(♭9). Very different, but both are unambiguous.




    Related: Most people I've met prefer altered extensions be listed from lowest to highest, e.g. A(9♯11♭13), not A(♭13♭9).






    share|improve this answer

























    • I always see e.g. (add9) when adding chord tones to chords that don't contain a 7th. I don't think I've ever seen C(9) to indicate a C(add9), and I don't think I've ever seen a C(addb9) at all. Every time I see extensions in parentheses, they are altered extensions, and they belong to a 7th chord; or at least that is how it seems....

      – David Bowling
      2 hours ago













    2












    2








    2







    Any time chord symbols are written like this, the first part is always the root. B♭9♭13 is always a 9♭13 chord built on the note B♭. If the composer wanted a B chord with a flat ninth, he/she would have made it clear, via "Badd♭9♭13" or "B(♭9♭13)". Makes sense because altered extensions must either come after some kind of natural extension (B7♭9, where the 7 separates the accidental automatically), or is notated with some kind of "add" or otherwise separated.



    If there's an accidental after a note name, it modifies the root, not the following extension.



    C♭9 versus C(♭9). Very different, but both are unambiguous.




    Related: Most people I've met prefer altered extensions be listed from lowest to highest, e.g. A(9♯11♭13), not A(♭13♭9).






    share|improve this answer















    Any time chord symbols are written like this, the first part is always the root. B♭9♭13 is always a 9♭13 chord built on the note B♭. If the composer wanted a B chord with a flat ninth, he/she would have made it clear, via "Badd♭9♭13" or "B(♭9♭13)". Makes sense because altered extensions must either come after some kind of natural extension (B7♭9, where the 7 separates the accidental automatically), or is notated with some kind of "add" or otherwise separated.



    If there's an accidental after a note name, it modifies the root, not the following extension.



    C♭9 versus C(♭9). Very different, but both are unambiguous.




    Related: Most people I've met prefer altered extensions be listed from lowest to highest, e.g. A(9♯11♭13), not A(♭13♭9).







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 3 hours ago

























    answered 8 hours ago









    user45266user45266

    5,71511042




    5,71511042












    • I always see e.g. (add9) when adding chord tones to chords that don't contain a 7th. I don't think I've ever seen C(9) to indicate a C(add9), and I don't think I've ever seen a C(addb9) at all. Every time I see extensions in parentheses, they are altered extensions, and they belong to a 7th chord; or at least that is how it seems....

      – David Bowling
      2 hours ago

















    • I always see e.g. (add9) when adding chord tones to chords that don't contain a 7th. I don't think I've ever seen C(9) to indicate a C(add9), and I don't think I've ever seen a C(addb9) at all. Every time I see extensions in parentheses, they are altered extensions, and they belong to a 7th chord; or at least that is how it seems....

      – David Bowling
      2 hours ago
















    I always see e.g. (add9) when adding chord tones to chords that don't contain a 7th. I don't think I've ever seen C(9) to indicate a C(add9), and I don't think I've ever seen a C(addb9) at all. Every time I see extensions in parentheses, they are altered extensions, and they belong to a 7th chord; or at least that is how it seems....

    – David Bowling
    2 hours ago





    I always see e.g. (add9) when adding chord tones to chords that don't contain a 7th. I don't think I've ever seen C(9) to indicate a C(add9), and I don't think I've ever seen a C(addb9) at all. Every time I see extensions in parentheses, they are altered extensions, and they belong to a 7th chord; or at least that is how it seems....

    – David Bowling
    2 hours ago











    1














    Bb13b9 can only be one thing, but that can be made more clear by using parentheses: Bb13(b9).



    It is common to put altered extensions and added notes in parentheses at the end of a chord name. Also note that altered extensions are typically written in ascending order, so an altered B7 might look like B7(b9b13), or even B7b9b13, but rarely (if ever) B7b13b9, or even B7(b13b9).



    In the absence of a 7th, with unaltered extensions, you might have Bb6/9, but a triad with added altered extensions would be pretty rare.



    Similarly, Gb13 can only be one thing. A G chord with an added b13 would be notated explicitly as an added tone chord: G(addb13) or G(addEb). But G(addEb) would be an uncommon chord since altered extensions are usually added to seventh chords, but not to triads. So a Gb13 is just a G13 transposed down a half-step.



    But, note that Gb13 is neither of the options suggested in the OP: "is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?" A G13 is a G7 with added 9th, 11th, and 13th extensions. It is very common to omit the 9th and 11th (and possibly the 5th), but the 7th and 13th must stay. So a G13 is at least G7 with an added 13 (E), and a Gb13 is at least Gb7 with and added 13 (Eb).






    share|improve this answer





























      1














      Bb13b9 can only be one thing, but that can be made more clear by using parentheses: Bb13(b9).



      It is common to put altered extensions and added notes in parentheses at the end of a chord name. Also note that altered extensions are typically written in ascending order, so an altered B7 might look like B7(b9b13), or even B7b9b13, but rarely (if ever) B7b13b9, or even B7(b13b9).



      In the absence of a 7th, with unaltered extensions, you might have Bb6/9, but a triad with added altered extensions would be pretty rare.



      Similarly, Gb13 can only be one thing. A G chord with an added b13 would be notated explicitly as an added tone chord: G(addb13) or G(addEb). But G(addEb) would be an uncommon chord since altered extensions are usually added to seventh chords, but not to triads. So a Gb13 is just a G13 transposed down a half-step.



      But, note that Gb13 is neither of the options suggested in the OP: "is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?" A G13 is a G7 with added 9th, 11th, and 13th extensions. It is very common to omit the 9th and 11th (and possibly the 5th), but the 7th and 13th must stay. So a G13 is at least G7 with an added 13 (E), and a Gb13 is at least Gb7 with and added 13 (Eb).






      share|improve this answer



























        1












        1








        1







        Bb13b9 can only be one thing, but that can be made more clear by using parentheses: Bb13(b9).



        It is common to put altered extensions and added notes in parentheses at the end of a chord name. Also note that altered extensions are typically written in ascending order, so an altered B7 might look like B7(b9b13), or even B7b9b13, but rarely (if ever) B7b13b9, or even B7(b13b9).



        In the absence of a 7th, with unaltered extensions, you might have Bb6/9, but a triad with added altered extensions would be pretty rare.



        Similarly, Gb13 can only be one thing. A G chord with an added b13 would be notated explicitly as an added tone chord: G(addb13) or G(addEb). But G(addEb) would be an uncommon chord since altered extensions are usually added to seventh chords, but not to triads. So a Gb13 is just a G13 transposed down a half-step.



        But, note that Gb13 is neither of the options suggested in the OP: "is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?" A G13 is a G7 with added 9th, 11th, and 13th extensions. It is very common to omit the 9th and 11th (and possibly the 5th), but the 7th and 13th must stay. So a G13 is at least G7 with an added 13 (E), and a Gb13 is at least Gb7 with and added 13 (Eb).






        share|improve this answer















        Bb13b9 can only be one thing, but that can be made more clear by using parentheses: Bb13(b9).



        It is common to put altered extensions and added notes in parentheses at the end of a chord name. Also note that altered extensions are typically written in ascending order, so an altered B7 might look like B7(b9b13), or even B7b9b13, but rarely (if ever) B7b13b9, or even B7(b13b9).



        In the absence of a 7th, with unaltered extensions, you might have Bb6/9, but a triad with added altered extensions would be pretty rare.



        Similarly, Gb13 can only be one thing. A G chord with an added b13 would be notated explicitly as an added tone chord: G(addb13) or G(addEb). But G(addEb) would be an uncommon chord since altered extensions are usually added to seventh chords, but not to triads. So a Gb13 is just a G13 transposed down a half-step.



        But, note that Gb13 is neither of the options suggested in the OP: "is it a Gb with a 13 or a G with a b13?" A G13 is a G7 with added 9th, 11th, and 13th extensions. It is very common to omit the 9th and 11th (and possibly the 5th), but the 7th and 13th must stay. So a G13 is at least G7 with an added 13 (E), and a Gb13 is at least Gb7 with and added 13 (Eb).







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 8 hours ago

























        answered 8 hours ago









        David BowlingDavid Bowling

        5,29821438




        5,29821438



























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