Why is c4 bad when playing the London against a King's Indian?
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Why is c4 bad when playing the London against a King's Indian?
Recently I (rated ~1900 "classical" on Lichess) played the following opening:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Nf3 O-O 5.Nbd2 d6 6.c4
Upon playing c4, the stockfish analysis goes from a score of 0 to a wopping -1.1, as if I've already blundered a pawn. I've noticed this in a lot of my games - when black avoids developing his queenside and putting pawns in the center, I'm tempted to play c4, planning Nc3, castling kingside, taking up space on the queenside and if black is passive, perhaps pushing for a central pawn break with c5. But in these situations stockfish usually strongly dislikes c4.
Why? Stockfish's response is usually suggesting black play c5 pretty quickly, but this allows d5 giving me a lot of kingside space instead, and I can imagine a nice eventual pawn break with e5. I'm perhaps not at a level where I should be focusing on the opening so much, but I feel like I'm missing a big strategic idea here.
opening strategy kings-indian london-system
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
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aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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add a comment |
Recently I (rated ~1900 "classical" on Lichess) played the following opening:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Nf3 O-O 5.Nbd2 d6 6.c4
Upon playing c4, the stockfish analysis goes from a score of 0 to a wopping -1.1, as if I've already blundered a pawn. I've noticed this in a lot of my games - when black avoids developing his queenside and putting pawns in the center, I'm tempted to play c4, planning Nc3, castling kingside, taking up space on the queenside and if black is passive, perhaps pushing for a central pawn break with c5. But in these situations stockfish usually strongly dislikes c4.
Why? Stockfish's response is usually suggesting black play c5 pretty quickly, but this allows d5 giving me a lot of kingside space instead, and I can imagine a nice eventual pawn break with e5. I'm perhaps not at a level where I should be focusing on the opening so much, but I feel like I'm missing a big strategic idea here.
opening strategy kings-indian london-system
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
New contributor
aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
Recently I (rated ~1900 "classical" on Lichess) played the following opening:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Nf3 O-O 5.Nbd2 d6 6.c4
Upon playing c4, the stockfish analysis goes from a score of 0 to a wopping -1.1, as if I've already blundered a pawn. I've noticed this in a lot of my games - when black avoids developing his queenside and putting pawns in the center, I'm tempted to play c4, planning Nc3, castling kingside, taking up space on the queenside and if black is passive, perhaps pushing for a central pawn break with c5. But in these situations stockfish usually strongly dislikes c4.
Why? Stockfish's response is usually suggesting black play c5 pretty quickly, but this allows d5 giving me a lot of kingside space instead, and I can imagine a nice eventual pawn break with e5. I'm perhaps not at a level where I should be focusing on the opening so much, but I feel like I'm missing a big strategic idea here.
opening strategy kings-indian london-system
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
New contributor
aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Recently I (rated ~1900 "classical" on Lichess) played the following opening:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Nf3 O-O 5.Nbd2 d6 6.c4
Upon playing c4, the stockfish analysis goes from a score of 0 to a wopping -1.1, as if I've already blundered a pawn. I've noticed this in a lot of my games - when black avoids developing his queenside and putting pawns in the center, I'm tempted to play c4, planning Nc3, castling kingside, taking up space on the queenside and if black is passive, perhaps pushing for a central pawn break with c5. But in these situations stockfish usually strongly dislikes c4.
Why? Stockfish's response is usually suggesting black play c5 pretty quickly, but this allows d5 giving me a lot of kingside space instead, and I can imagine a nice eventual pawn break with e5. I'm perhaps not at a level where I should be focusing on the opening so much, but I feel like I'm missing a big strategic idea here.
opening strategy kings-indian london-system
opening strategy kings-indian london-system
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
New contributor
aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
New contributor
aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
New contributor
aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
asked 8 hours ago
aquirdturtleaquirdturtle
1292
1292
New contributor
aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
aquirdturtle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
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votes
It may be to the fact that you are making his bad Bishop into a Monster.
After 6...c5, 7. d5 Nh5! and the dark square bishop is free to roam.
[FEN "rnbq1rk1/pp2ppbp/3p2p1/2pP3n/2P2B2/4PN2/PP1N1PPP/R2QKB1R w KQ - 1 8"]
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
That's not the main reason. In the diagram you posted Black wins the b2-pawn or gets to play ...Nxf4.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
@InertialIgnorance The Main Reason is because the dark square Bishop has the a1-h8 diagonal at its disposal (the main drawback of playing the KID is gone in this position!) Which allows winning the b2 pawn once White decides what to do about his Dark square bishop.
– gtgaxiola
5 hours ago
The bishop having access to the long diagonal is not a sufficient reason for the winning the pawn on its own. In the Benoni the bishop enjoys this throughout the whole game. Black wins a pawn in the diagram because of a specific tactic involving White's f4-bishop and the loose pawn.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
add a comment |
If you want to play c4 against the King's Indian, it's better to go "all in" by having your e-pawn on e4 (so playing a main line against the KID). With the pawn on e3 you're sort of dipping your toe in the water with c4. It's not nearly as effective.
There's also an important tactical reason for why c4 is bad (probably why Stockfish gave -1). After 6...c5, if you push 7.d5 then Black has 7...Nh5, attacking your f4-bishop and the hanging b2-pawn. You'll have to give up the pawn or settle for Black playing ...Nxf4 and giving you doubled pawns. You could avoid pushing d5 but then after ...Nh5 (again) your d-pawn is under heavy fire since it doesn't have any support from your c-pawn.
If your c-pawn were on c3 then the d4-pawn would have more support, and there would never be any issues with the b2-pawn hanging.
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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It may be to the fact that you are making his bad Bishop into a Monster.
After 6...c5, 7. d5 Nh5! and the dark square bishop is free to roam.
[FEN "rnbq1rk1/pp2ppbp/3p2p1/2pP3n/2P2B2/4PN2/PP1N1PPP/R2QKB1R w KQ - 1 8"]
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
That's not the main reason. In the diagram you posted Black wins the b2-pawn or gets to play ...Nxf4.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
@InertialIgnorance The Main Reason is because the dark square Bishop has the a1-h8 diagonal at its disposal (the main drawback of playing the KID is gone in this position!) Which allows winning the b2 pawn once White decides what to do about his Dark square bishop.
– gtgaxiola
5 hours ago
The bishop having access to the long diagonal is not a sufficient reason for the winning the pawn on its own. In the Benoni the bishop enjoys this throughout the whole game. Black wins a pawn in the diagram because of a specific tactic involving White's f4-bishop and the loose pawn.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
add a comment |
It may be to the fact that you are making his bad Bishop into a Monster.
After 6...c5, 7. d5 Nh5! and the dark square bishop is free to roam.
[FEN "rnbq1rk1/pp2ppbp/3p2p1/2pP3n/2P2B2/4PN2/PP1N1PPP/R2QKB1R w KQ - 1 8"]
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
That's not the main reason. In the diagram you posted Black wins the b2-pawn or gets to play ...Nxf4.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
@InertialIgnorance The Main Reason is because the dark square Bishop has the a1-h8 diagonal at its disposal (the main drawback of playing the KID is gone in this position!) Which allows winning the b2 pawn once White decides what to do about his Dark square bishop.
– gtgaxiola
5 hours ago
The bishop having access to the long diagonal is not a sufficient reason for the winning the pawn on its own. In the Benoni the bishop enjoys this throughout the whole game. Black wins a pawn in the diagram because of a specific tactic involving White's f4-bishop and the loose pawn.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
add a comment |
It may be to the fact that you are making his bad Bishop into a Monster.
After 6...c5, 7. d5 Nh5! and the dark square bishop is free to roam.
[FEN "rnbq1rk1/pp2ppbp/3p2p1/2pP3n/2P2B2/4PN2/PP1N1PPP/R2QKB1R w KQ - 1 8"]
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
It may be to the fact that you are making his bad Bishop into a Monster.
After 6...c5, 7. d5 Nh5! and the dark square bishop is free to roam.
[FEN "rnbq1rk1/pp2ppbp/3p2p1/2pP3n/2P2B2/4PN2/PP1N1PPP/R2QKB1R w KQ - 1 8"]
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
answered 8 hours ago
gtgaxiolagtgaxiola
1759
1759
That's not the main reason. In the diagram you posted Black wins the b2-pawn or gets to play ...Nxf4.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
@InertialIgnorance The Main Reason is because the dark square Bishop has the a1-h8 diagonal at its disposal (the main drawback of playing the KID is gone in this position!) Which allows winning the b2 pawn once White decides what to do about his Dark square bishop.
– gtgaxiola
5 hours ago
The bishop having access to the long diagonal is not a sufficient reason for the winning the pawn on its own. In the Benoni the bishop enjoys this throughout the whole game. Black wins a pawn in the diagram because of a specific tactic involving White's f4-bishop and the loose pawn.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
add a comment |
That's not the main reason. In the diagram you posted Black wins the b2-pawn or gets to play ...Nxf4.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
@InertialIgnorance The Main Reason is because the dark square Bishop has the a1-h8 diagonal at its disposal (the main drawback of playing the KID is gone in this position!) Which allows winning the b2 pawn once White decides what to do about his Dark square bishop.
– gtgaxiola
5 hours ago
The bishop having access to the long diagonal is not a sufficient reason for the winning the pawn on its own. In the Benoni the bishop enjoys this throughout the whole game. Black wins a pawn in the diagram because of a specific tactic involving White's f4-bishop and the loose pawn.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
That's not the main reason. In the diagram you posted Black wins the b2-pawn or gets to play ...Nxf4.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
That's not the main reason. In the diagram you posted Black wins the b2-pawn or gets to play ...Nxf4.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
@InertialIgnorance The Main Reason is because the dark square Bishop has the a1-h8 diagonal at its disposal (the main drawback of playing the KID is gone in this position!) Which allows winning the b2 pawn once White decides what to do about his Dark square bishop.
– gtgaxiola
5 hours ago
@InertialIgnorance The Main Reason is because the dark square Bishop has the a1-h8 diagonal at its disposal (the main drawback of playing the KID is gone in this position!) Which allows winning the b2 pawn once White decides what to do about his Dark square bishop.
– gtgaxiola
5 hours ago
The bishop having access to the long diagonal is not a sufficient reason for the winning the pawn on its own. In the Benoni the bishop enjoys this throughout the whole game. Black wins a pawn in the diagram because of a specific tactic involving White's f4-bishop and the loose pawn.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
The bishop having access to the long diagonal is not a sufficient reason for the winning the pawn on its own. In the Benoni the bishop enjoys this throughout the whole game. Black wins a pawn in the diagram because of a specific tactic involving White's f4-bishop and the loose pawn.
– Inertial Ignorance
5 hours ago
add a comment |
If you want to play c4 against the King's Indian, it's better to go "all in" by having your e-pawn on e4 (so playing a main line against the KID). With the pawn on e3 you're sort of dipping your toe in the water with c4. It's not nearly as effective.
There's also an important tactical reason for why c4 is bad (probably why Stockfish gave -1). After 6...c5, if you push 7.d5 then Black has 7...Nh5, attacking your f4-bishop and the hanging b2-pawn. You'll have to give up the pawn or settle for Black playing ...Nxf4 and giving you doubled pawns. You could avoid pushing d5 but then after ...Nh5 (again) your d-pawn is under heavy fire since it doesn't have any support from your c-pawn.
If your c-pawn were on c3 then the d4-pawn would have more support, and there would never be any issues with the b2-pawn hanging.
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
add a comment |
If you want to play c4 against the King's Indian, it's better to go "all in" by having your e-pawn on e4 (so playing a main line against the KID). With the pawn on e3 you're sort of dipping your toe in the water with c4. It's not nearly as effective.
There's also an important tactical reason for why c4 is bad (probably why Stockfish gave -1). After 6...c5, if you push 7.d5 then Black has 7...Nh5, attacking your f4-bishop and the hanging b2-pawn. You'll have to give up the pawn or settle for Black playing ...Nxf4 and giving you doubled pawns. You could avoid pushing d5 but then after ...Nh5 (again) your d-pawn is under heavy fire since it doesn't have any support from your c-pawn.
If your c-pawn were on c3 then the d4-pawn would have more support, and there would never be any issues with the b2-pawn hanging.
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
add a comment |
If you want to play c4 against the King's Indian, it's better to go "all in" by having your e-pawn on e4 (so playing a main line against the KID). With the pawn on e3 you're sort of dipping your toe in the water with c4. It's not nearly as effective.
There's also an important tactical reason for why c4 is bad (probably why Stockfish gave -1). After 6...c5, if you push 7.d5 then Black has 7...Nh5, attacking your f4-bishop and the hanging b2-pawn. You'll have to give up the pawn or settle for Black playing ...Nxf4 and giving you doubled pawns. You could avoid pushing d5 but then after ...Nh5 (again) your d-pawn is under heavy fire since it doesn't have any support from your c-pawn.
If your c-pawn were on c3 then the d4-pawn would have more support, and there would never be any issues with the b2-pawn hanging.
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
If you want to play c4 against the King's Indian, it's better to go "all in" by having your e-pawn on e4 (so playing a main line against the KID). With the pawn on e3 you're sort of dipping your toe in the water with c4. It's not nearly as effective.
There's also an important tactical reason for why c4 is bad (probably why Stockfish gave -1). After 6...c5, if you push 7.d5 then Black has 7...Nh5, attacking your f4-bishop and the hanging b2-pawn. You'll have to give up the pawn or settle for Black playing ...Nxf4 and giving you doubled pawns. You could avoid pushing d5 but then after ...Nh5 (again) your d-pawn is under heavy fire since it doesn't have any support from your c-pawn.
If your c-pawn were on c3 then the d4-pawn would have more support, and there would never be any issues with the b2-pawn hanging.
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
edited 4 hours ago
Brian Towers
18k33179
18k33179
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
answered 5 hours ago
Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance
5,811513
5,811513
add a comment |
add a comment |
aquirdturtle is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
aquirdturtle is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
aquirdturtle is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
aquirdturtle is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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