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Saying the right thing then saying the wrong thing toch kedai dibur
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Saying the right thing then saying the wrong thing toch kedai dibur
Advance notice of the day of the Omer?Mentioning the number of the Sefira prior to saying itLast night *might* have been the first night of the omer. Right?Counting the Omer non-verballyIs it Halachically wrong to avoid the rabbi's sermon?Language of Mishneh Brurah - Sefiras HaOmer and counting before AleinuSaying goodbye on Tisha B'AvSaying the Ribono Shel Olom after counting the OmerHow to approach saying divrei torah at the shabbos tableWhat is the source of this saying about allotment of words?
Someone counts the correct day of Sefiras HaOmer but then thinks he made a mistake, so he immediately "corrects" himself and counts the wrong day. Does his second (incorrect) counting, which was made toch kedai dibur of the first, undo his first correct count so that in order to fulfill the mitzvah he would have to count again? In other words, can toch kedai dibur be "mvatel" something that was said correctly and thereby prevent a mitzvah fulfillment that depends on a specific statement being said?
sefirat-ha-omer speech-talking
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
add a comment |
Someone counts the correct day of Sefiras HaOmer but then thinks he made a mistake, so he immediately "corrects" himself and counts the wrong day. Does his second (incorrect) counting, which was made toch kedai dibur of the first, undo his first correct count so that in order to fulfill the mitzvah he would have to count again? In other words, can toch kedai dibur be "mvatel" something that was said correctly and thereby prevent a mitzvah fulfillment that depends on a specific statement being said?
sefirat-ha-omer speech-talking
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
@DanF Where are you getting this from?
– Yehoshua
4 hours ago
@DanF What does this case have to do with Safek? There are no doubts about what was said.
– Salmononius2
3 hours ago
My answer addresses only Sefirat Ha'Omer. However, your title as well as the last sentence implies that you seek a more general answer to all situations. I don't think that there is a general rule for everything, as I think it depends on the purpose of the mitzvah and what the statement accomplishes. E.g. - If it was Yom Tov and you ended the bracha "Mekadesh Hashabbat", I think you have to repeat the bracha. At any rate, I think you should edit your question and ask just about Omer, and perhaps, ask a separate general question.
– DanF
48 mins ago
add a comment |
Someone counts the correct day of Sefiras HaOmer but then thinks he made a mistake, so he immediately "corrects" himself and counts the wrong day. Does his second (incorrect) counting, which was made toch kedai dibur of the first, undo his first correct count so that in order to fulfill the mitzvah he would have to count again? In other words, can toch kedai dibur be "mvatel" something that was said correctly and thereby prevent a mitzvah fulfillment that depends on a specific statement being said?
sefirat-ha-omer speech-talking
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
Someone counts the correct day of Sefiras HaOmer but then thinks he made a mistake, so he immediately "corrects" himself and counts the wrong day. Does his second (incorrect) counting, which was made toch kedai dibur of the first, undo his first correct count so that in order to fulfill the mitzvah he would have to count again? In other words, can toch kedai dibur be "mvatel" something that was said correctly and thereby prevent a mitzvah fulfillment that depends on a specific statement being said?
sefirat-ha-omer speech-talking
sefirat-ha-omer speech-talking
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
edited 4 hours ago
Jay
4,036620
4,036620
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
asked 5 hours ago
YehoshuaYehoshua
7,38941346
7,38941346
@DanF Where are you getting this from?
– Yehoshua
4 hours ago
@DanF What does this case have to do with Safek? There are no doubts about what was said.
– Salmononius2
3 hours ago
My answer addresses only Sefirat Ha'Omer. However, your title as well as the last sentence implies that you seek a more general answer to all situations. I don't think that there is a general rule for everything, as I think it depends on the purpose of the mitzvah and what the statement accomplishes. E.g. - If it was Yom Tov and you ended the bracha "Mekadesh Hashabbat", I think you have to repeat the bracha. At any rate, I think you should edit your question and ask just about Omer, and perhaps, ask a separate general question.
– DanF
48 mins ago
add a comment |
@DanF Where are you getting this from?
– Yehoshua
4 hours ago
@DanF What does this case have to do with Safek? There are no doubts about what was said.
– Salmononius2
3 hours ago
My answer addresses only Sefirat Ha'Omer. However, your title as well as the last sentence implies that you seek a more general answer to all situations. I don't think that there is a general rule for everything, as I think it depends on the purpose of the mitzvah and what the statement accomplishes. E.g. - If it was Yom Tov and you ended the bracha "Mekadesh Hashabbat", I think you have to repeat the bracha. At any rate, I think you should edit your question and ask just about Omer, and perhaps, ask a separate general question.
– DanF
48 mins ago
@DanF Where are you getting this from?
– Yehoshua
4 hours ago
@DanF Where are you getting this from?
– Yehoshua
4 hours ago
@DanF What does this case have to do with Safek? There are no doubts about what was said.
– Salmononius2
3 hours ago
@DanF What does this case have to do with Safek? There are no doubts about what was said.
– Salmononius2
3 hours ago
My answer addresses only Sefirat Ha'Omer. However, your title as well as the last sentence implies that you seek a more general answer to all situations. I don't think that there is a general rule for everything, as I think it depends on the purpose of the mitzvah and what the statement accomplishes. E.g. - If it was Yom Tov and you ended the bracha "Mekadesh Hashabbat", I think you have to repeat the bracha. At any rate, I think you should edit your question and ask just about Omer, and perhaps, ask a separate general question.
– DanF
48 mins ago
My answer addresses only Sefirat Ha'Omer. However, your title as well as the last sentence implies that you seek a more general answer to all situations. I don't think that there is a general rule for everything, as I think it depends on the purpose of the mitzvah and what the statement accomplishes. E.g. - If it was Yom Tov and you ended the bracha "Mekadesh Hashabbat", I think you have to repeat the bracha. At any rate, I think you should edit your question and ask just about Omer, and perhaps, ask a separate general question.
– DanF
48 mins ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
See O.C. 489:5 which directly addresses your situation. Mechaber says that this is fine and you don't need to repeat the bracha. However, see Mishna Berurah commentary #32 which seems to indicate that since you ended with the wrong day, you would have to repeat the bracha.
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
Isn't that talking about thinking a certain day and saying a diff one,not saying one and then saying a new one? It's not addressing the OP question
– sam
40 mins ago
In the OP question the person actually said it with his mouth not mind.
– sam
34 mins ago
@sam I think the main discussion in O.C. focuses on what you said at the end. OP's question seems to indicate that you expressed what you thought. You changed your mind in the middle so you said the wrong thing at the end. According to MB, it seems to matter only on what you said. According to Mechaber, it doesn't seem to matter either way as long as either you thought OR you said the right thing somewhere. If you just say stuff without thinking about what you're saying and words just emanate from your mouth randomly, honestly, even if you asked a rav, you may not understand him, either.
– DanF
17 mins ago
The Rashba in Berachot 12a criticize the Geonim in a case he says the right beracha, and afterwards toch kede dibbur he adds a correction and says the wrong beracha. Geonim say that is the question in Gemara. and Rashba says וזה דבר רחוק ודחוק מאד שיהא הפסד בתוספות שהוסיף לאחר שסיים ברכתו . So following the Rashba after a right statement, a wrong cannot alterat it. But his shita is also than a right beracha cannot correct a wrong. We don't follow the Rashba in 209.2 . So I don't use the Rashba to answer.
– kouty
1 min ago
It seems that the SA 489 doesn't say to make bracha again because of the Shita of RAshba and Mishna berura rejected at all this shita so he needs to bless a second time
– kouty
1 min ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
See O.C. 489:5 which directly addresses your situation. Mechaber says that this is fine and you don't need to repeat the bracha. However, see Mishna Berurah commentary #32 which seems to indicate that since you ended with the wrong day, you would have to repeat the bracha.
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
Isn't that talking about thinking a certain day and saying a diff one,not saying one and then saying a new one? It's not addressing the OP question
– sam
40 mins ago
In the OP question the person actually said it with his mouth not mind.
– sam
34 mins ago
@sam I think the main discussion in O.C. focuses on what you said at the end. OP's question seems to indicate that you expressed what you thought. You changed your mind in the middle so you said the wrong thing at the end. According to MB, it seems to matter only on what you said. According to Mechaber, it doesn't seem to matter either way as long as either you thought OR you said the right thing somewhere. If you just say stuff without thinking about what you're saying and words just emanate from your mouth randomly, honestly, even if you asked a rav, you may not understand him, either.
– DanF
17 mins ago
The Rashba in Berachot 12a criticize the Geonim in a case he says the right beracha, and afterwards toch kede dibbur he adds a correction and says the wrong beracha. Geonim say that is the question in Gemara. and Rashba says וזה דבר רחוק ודחוק מאד שיהא הפסד בתוספות שהוסיף לאחר שסיים ברכתו . So following the Rashba after a right statement, a wrong cannot alterat it. But his shita is also than a right beracha cannot correct a wrong. We don't follow the Rashba in 209.2 . So I don't use the Rashba to answer.
– kouty
1 min ago
It seems that the SA 489 doesn't say to make bracha again because of the Shita of RAshba and Mishna berura rejected at all this shita so he needs to bless a second time
– kouty
1 min ago
add a comment |
See O.C. 489:5 which directly addresses your situation. Mechaber says that this is fine and you don't need to repeat the bracha. However, see Mishna Berurah commentary #32 which seems to indicate that since you ended with the wrong day, you would have to repeat the bracha.
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
Isn't that talking about thinking a certain day and saying a diff one,not saying one and then saying a new one? It's not addressing the OP question
– sam
40 mins ago
In the OP question the person actually said it with his mouth not mind.
– sam
34 mins ago
@sam I think the main discussion in O.C. focuses on what you said at the end. OP's question seems to indicate that you expressed what you thought. You changed your mind in the middle so you said the wrong thing at the end. According to MB, it seems to matter only on what you said. According to Mechaber, it doesn't seem to matter either way as long as either you thought OR you said the right thing somewhere. If you just say stuff without thinking about what you're saying and words just emanate from your mouth randomly, honestly, even if you asked a rav, you may not understand him, either.
– DanF
17 mins ago
The Rashba in Berachot 12a criticize the Geonim in a case he says the right beracha, and afterwards toch kede dibbur he adds a correction and says the wrong beracha. Geonim say that is the question in Gemara. and Rashba says וזה דבר רחוק ודחוק מאד שיהא הפסד בתוספות שהוסיף לאחר שסיים ברכתו . So following the Rashba after a right statement, a wrong cannot alterat it. But his shita is also than a right beracha cannot correct a wrong. We don't follow the Rashba in 209.2 . So I don't use the Rashba to answer.
– kouty
1 min ago
It seems that the SA 489 doesn't say to make bracha again because of the Shita of RAshba and Mishna berura rejected at all this shita so he needs to bless a second time
– kouty
1 min ago
add a comment |
See O.C. 489:5 which directly addresses your situation. Mechaber says that this is fine and you don't need to repeat the bracha. However, see Mishna Berurah commentary #32 which seems to indicate that since you ended with the wrong day, you would have to repeat the bracha.
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
See O.C. 489:5 which directly addresses your situation. Mechaber says that this is fine and you don't need to repeat the bracha. However, see Mishna Berurah commentary #32 which seems to indicate that since you ended with the wrong day, you would have to repeat the bracha.
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
answered 55 mins ago
DanFDanF
35.8k529139
35.8k529139
Isn't that talking about thinking a certain day and saying a diff one,not saying one and then saying a new one? It's not addressing the OP question
– sam
40 mins ago
In the OP question the person actually said it with his mouth not mind.
– sam
34 mins ago
@sam I think the main discussion in O.C. focuses on what you said at the end. OP's question seems to indicate that you expressed what you thought. You changed your mind in the middle so you said the wrong thing at the end. According to MB, it seems to matter only on what you said. According to Mechaber, it doesn't seem to matter either way as long as either you thought OR you said the right thing somewhere. If you just say stuff without thinking about what you're saying and words just emanate from your mouth randomly, honestly, even if you asked a rav, you may not understand him, either.
– DanF
17 mins ago
The Rashba in Berachot 12a criticize the Geonim in a case he says the right beracha, and afterwards toch kede dibbur he adds a correction and says the wrong beracha. Geonim say that is the question in Gemara. and Rashba says וזה דבר רחוק ודחוק מאד שיהא הפסד בתוספות שהוסיף לאחר שסיים ברכתו . So following the Rashba after a right statement, a wrong cannot alterat it. But his shita is also than a right beracha cannot correct a wrong. We don't follow the Rashba in 209.2 . So I don't use the Rashba to answer.
– kouty
1 min ago
It seems that the SA 489 doesn't say to make bracha again because of the Shita of RAshba and Mishna berura rejected at all this shita so he needs to bless a second time
– kouty
1 min ago
add a comment |
Isn't that talking about thinking a certain day and saying a diff one,not saying one and then saying a new one? It's not addressing the OP question
– sam
40 mins ago
In the OP question the person actually said it with his mouth not mind.
– sam
34 mins ago
@sam I think the main discussion in O.C. focuses on what you said at the end. OP's question seems to indicate that you expressed what you thought. You changed your mind in the middle so you said the wrong thing at the end. According to MB, it seems to matter only on what you said. According to Mechaber, it doesn't seem to matter either way as long as either you thought OR you said the right thing somewhere. If you just say stuff without thinking about what you're saying and words just emanate from your mouth randomly, honestly, even if you asked a rav, you may not understand him, either.
– DanF
17 mins ago
The Rashba in Berachot 12a criticize the Geonim in a case he says the right beracha, and afterwards toch kede dibbur he adds a correction and says the wrong beracha. Geonim say that is the question in Gemara. and Rashba says וזה דבר רחוק ודחוק מאד שיהא הפסד בתוספות שהוסיף לאחר שסיים ברכתו . So following the Rashba after a right statement, a wrong cannot alterat it. But his shita is also than a right beracha cannot correct a wrong. We don't follow the Rashba in 209.2 . So I don't use the Rashba to answer.
– kouty
1 min ago
It seems that the SA 489 doesn't say to make bracha again because of the Shita of RAshba and Mishna berura rejected at all this shita so he needs to bless a second time
– kouty
1 min ago
Isn't that talking about thinking a certain day and saying a diff one,not saying one and then saying a new one? It's not addressing the OP question
– sam
40 mins ago
Isn't that talking about thinking a certain day and saying a diff one,not saying one and then saying a new one? It's not addressing the OP question
– sam
40 mins ago
In the OP question the person actually said it with his mouth not mind.
– sam
34 mins ago
In the OP question the person actually said it with his mouth not mind.
– sam
34 mins ago
@sam I think the main discussion in O.C. focuses on what you said at the end. OP's question seems to indicate that you expressed what you thought. You changed your mind in the middle so you said the wrong thing at the end. According to MB, it seems to matter only on what you said. According to Mechaber, it doesn't seem to matter either way as long as either you thought OR you said the right thing somewhere. If you just say stuff without thinking about what you're saying and words just emanate from your mouth randomly, honestly, even if you asked a rav, you may not understand him, either.
– DanF
17 mins ago
@sam I think the main discussion in O.C. focuses on what you said at the end. OP's question seems to indicate that you expressed what you thought. You changed your mind in the middle so you said the wrong thing at the end. According to MB, it seems to matter only on what you said. According to Mechaber, it doesn't seem to matter either way as long as either you thought OR you said the right thing somewhere. If you just say stuff without thinking about what you're saying and words just emanate from your mouth randomly, honestly, even if you asked a rav, you may not understand him, either.
– DanF
17 mins ago
The Rashba in Berachot 12a criticize the Geonim in a case he says the right beracha, and afterwards toch kede dibbur he adds a correction and says the wrong beracha. Geonim say that is the question in Gemara. and Rashba says וזה דבר רחוק ודחוק מאד שיהא הפסד בתוספות שהוסיף לאחר שסיים ברכתו . So following the Rashba after a right statement, a wrong cannot alterat it. But his shita is also than a right beracha cannot correct a wrong. We don't follow the Rashba in 209.2 . So I don't use the Rashba to answer.
– kouty
1 min ago
The Rashba in Berachot 12a criticize the Geonim in a case he says the right beracha, and afterwards toch kede dibbur he adds a correction and says the wrong beracha. Geonim say that is the question in Gemara. and Rashba says וזה דבר רחוק ודחוק מאד שיהא הפסד בתוספות שהוסיף לאחר שסיים ברכתו . So following the Rashba after a right statement, a wrong cannot alterat it. But his shita is also than a right beracha cannot correct a wrong. We don't follow the Rashba in 209.2 . So I don't use the Rashba to answer.
– kouty
1 min ago
It seems that the SA 489 doesn't say to make bracha again because of the Shita of RAshba and Mishna berura rejected at all this shita so he needs to bless a second time
– kouty
1 min ago
It seems that the SA 489 doesn't say to make bracha again because of the Shita of RAshba and Mishna berura rejected at all this shita so he needs to bless a second time
– kouty
1 min ago
add a comment |
@DanF Where are you getting this from?
– Yehoshua
4 hours ago
@DanF What does this case have to do with Safek? There are no doubts about what was said.
– Salmononius2
3 hours ago
My answer addresses only Sefirat Ha'Omer. However, your title as well as the last sentence implies that you seek a more general answer to all situations. I don't think that there is a general rule for everything, as I think it depends on the purpose of the mitzvah and what the statement accomplishes. E.g. - If it was Yom Tov and you ended the bracha "Mekadesh Hashabbat", I think you have to repeat the bracha. At any rate, I think you should edit your question and ask just about Omer, and perhaps, ask a separate general question.
– DanF
48 mins ago