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Can a successful economy exist without renting stuff?
How would companies respond to all employees being eligible for overtime compensation payment, as compared to only some employees being eligible?What happens if money vanishes if not spent?What to invest in when money and the economy vanishHow plausible is this form of government; where you get votes depending on the amount of income tax paidCould a near-completely capitalistic nation work?Can time travel make us rich through trading, and is this a problem?In a world where owning a cryosuit is necessary for day-to-day life, how would its expenses be handled?Could inequality and class warfare still exist in a post-scarcity society?Feasibility of a village improving its economy through hot springs
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Modern capitalism is considered as the most successful form of economy (and it clearly works better than, say, communism), but it too has its flaws. One of the most glaring ones (in my opinion) is the ability for rich people to get richer infinitely, eventually resulting in what is known as "large income inequality" - a handful of super-rich people own everything and vast swaths of poor people work for scraps in order to make the super-rich people even richer.
This is baked into the system and the way current governments are handling it is by artificially limiting the system. There are progressive taxes and wealth redistribution; anti-monopoly laws; etc. Still, it all feels like just a patch.
And I got wondering - could a better economical system be designed without this flaw in the first place?
So, how do rich people get so rich? Well, through owning stuff that makes them money. A single person, no matter how hard working, can only produce only so much value per 24 hours. You can't get very rich that way. So the way that rich people get rich is that they buy things which they then rent to other people. It's the perfect scheme - the owners don't need to do anything, but the money keeps coming in, infinitely. There are various things that are being rented/loaned - real estate, cars, money itself, even companies (companies are a weird case where the company owner is renting the company to their employees, and the employees pay back with a share of the income from their work).
And this works so well because the more money you have, the more things you can buy to rent out, and your income just keeps increasing exponentially.
So my question is - what if this was explicitly forbidden? What would happen?
- We start of with a typical western capitalist economy; today's level of technology.
- All forms of rent are forbidden. You can still own things and keep them to yourself, but if you give them to others, you're not allowed to charge for it.
- This includes lending money, renting apartments, paid parking, car rentals, etc. In essence, you cannot get money from simply owning stuff anymore. You also need to put it work.
- You can however let others borrow your stuff for free if you feel like you don't need it.
- You are also allowed to charge a small, reasonable amount for wear and tear. For example, if you're lending a car, that car will need repairs eventually, and you can calculate the average wear and charge that much (and, of course, gas money). Similarly for renting an apartment, etc.
- In addition, if you've bought the thing explicitly for lending it to others, you can also charge a part of the original expense for the first customers, so that, say, the first 1000 customers pay off the price of your new car. After the original expense has been repaid however, you can no longer charge this fee. It's up to you to decide how many customers you will spread this out over.
- Some small black market would probably exist, but the authorities would be working against it.
Would this work? I expect that if such a change would be implemented suddenly, the world would burn. But assuming we can somehow (slowly?) get there peacefully, would such a system hold? Would we enjoy a better world where everyone is more equal, or would scarcity rule and everyone be poor now?
reality-check economy
$endgroup$
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
Modern capitalism is considered as the most successful form of economy (and it clearly works better than, say, communism), but it too has its flaws. One of the most glaring ones (in my opinion) is the ability for rich people to get richer infinitely, eventually resulting in what is known as "large income inequality" - a handful of super-rich people own everything and vast swaths of poor people work for scraps in order to make the super-rich people even richer.
This is baked into the system and the way current governments are handling it is by artificially limiting the system. There are progressive taxes and wealth redistribution; anti-monopoly laws; etc. Still, it all feels like just a patch.
And I got wondering - could a better economical system be designed without this flaw in the first place?
So, how do rich people get so rich? Well, through owning stuff that makes them money. A single person, no matter how hard working, can only produce only so much value per 24 hours. You can't get very rich that way. So the way that rich people get rich is that they buy things which they then rent to other people. It's the perfect scheme - the owners don't need to do anything, but the money keeps coming in, infinitely. There are various things that are being rented/loaned - real estate, cars, money itself, even companies (companies are a weird case where the company owner is renting the company to their employees, and the employees pay back with a share of the income from their work).
And this works so well because the more money you have, the more things you can buy to rent out, and your income just keeps increasing exponentially.
So my question is - what if this was explicitly forbidden? What would happen?
- We start of with a typical western capitalist economy; today's level of technology.
- All forms of rent are forbidden. You can still own things and keep them to yourself, but if you give them to others, you're not allowed to charge for it.
- This includes lending money, renting apartments, paid parking, car rentals, etc. In essence, you cannot get money from simply owning stuff anymore. You also need to put it work.
- You can however let others borrow your stuff for free if you feel like you don't need it.
- You are also allowed to charge a small, reasonable amount for wear and tear. For example, if you're lending a car, that car will need repairs eventually, and you can calculate the average wear and charge that much (and, of course, gas money). Similarly for renting an apartment, etc.
- In addition, if you've bought the thing explicitly for lending it to others, you can also charge a part of the original expense for the first customers, so that, say, the first 1000 customers pay off the price of your new car. After the original expense has been repaid however, you can no longer charge this fee. It's up to you to decide how many customers you will spread this out over.
- Some small black market would probably exist, but the authorities would be working against it.
Would this work? I expect that if such a change would be implemented suddenly, the world would burn. But assuming we can somehow (slowly?) get there peacefully, would such a system hold? Would we enjoy a better world where everyone is more equal, or would scarcity rule and everyone be poor now?
reality-check economy
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1
$begingroup$
Well, just try to imagine a world in which rental apartments (or any type of housing) do not exist.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
7 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
I think you'd get more in-depth responses if you asked this over on economics.stackexchange.com. But my guess is it would have little effect on the status quo. The market model may have somewhat of a different structure to it, but (assuming we're sticking to capitalism) supply and demand would still reign supreme i.e. there would still be a massive disproportion between rich and poor.
$endgroup$
– b1nary.atr0phy
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Could you expand somewhat on what you mean by words like better and successful? The arguments that favor less-restricted capitalism aren't about working vs. total failure, but relative efficiencies. What is described here seems like a deflated version of the current capitalist system, or a hybridized system of capitalist market organization and price controls. (For reference: systems like that have existed, including in the U.S., within the last half-century or so).
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If you're allowed to charge rent equal to the sum of your purchase price, how does this system prevent you from just selling the property when you run out, and getting a new one? e.g. I spend $1 million on an apartment building, I charge my tenants a total of a million in rent over however many years, I sell it and buy a new one... now I have a million in collectable rent on the new building.
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– Cadence
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
There are multiple misconceptions about economics that form the basis of your question, which make it hard to give a good answer. The two most glaring ones are that you think "value" is objective (it isn't), and that the beneficiaries of income inequality are static (e.g. "the rich" might get richer over time, but "the rich" is a group whose membership changes frequently). I may expand this into an answer later.
$endgroup$
– Joe
5 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
Modern capitalism is considered as the most successful form of economy (and it clearly works better than, say, communism), but it too has its flaws. One of the most glaring ones (in my opinion) is the ability for rich people to get richer infinitely, eventually resulting in what is known as "large income inequality" - a handful of super-rich people own everything and vast swaths of poor people work for scraps in order to make the super-rich people even richer.
This is baked into the system and the way current governments are handling it is by artificially limiting the system. There are progressive taxes and wealth redistribution; anti-monopoly laws; etc. Still, it all feels like just a patch.
And I got wondering - could a better economical system be designed without this flaw in the first place?
So, how do rich people get so rich? Well, through owning stuff that makes them money. A single person, no matter how hard working, can only produce only so much value per 24 hours. You can't get very rich that way. So the way that rich people get rich is that they buy things which they then rent to other people. It's the perfect scheme - the owners don't need to do anything, but the money keeps coming in, infinitely. There are various things that are being rented/loaned - real estate, cars, money itself, even companies (companies are a weird case where the company owner is renting the company to their employees, and the employees pay back with a share of the income from their work).
And this works so well because the more money you have, the more things you can buy to rent out, and your income just keeps increasing exponentially.
So my question is - what if this was explicitly forbidden? What would happen?
- We start of with a typical western capitalist economy; today's level of technology.
- All forms of rent are forbidden. You can still own things and keep them to yourself, but if you give them to others, you're not allowed to charge for it.
- This includes lending money, renting apartments, paid parking, car rentals, etc. In essence, you cannot get money from simply owning stuff anymore. You also need to put it work.
- You can however let others borrow your stuff for free if you feel like you don't need it.
- You are also allowed to charge a small, reasonable amount for wear and tear. For example, if you're lending a car, that car will need repairs eventually, and you can calculate the average wear and charge that much (and, of course, gas money). Similarly for renting an apartment, etc.
- In addition, if you've bought the thing explicitly for lending it to others, you can also charge a part of the original expense for the first customers, so that, say, the first 1000 customers pay off the price of your new car. After the original expense has been repaid however, you can no longer charge this fee. It's up to you to decide how many customers you will spread this out over.
- Some small black market would probably exist, but the authorities would be working against it.
Would this work? I expect that if such a change would be implemented suddenly, the world would burn. But assuming we can somehow (slowly?) get there peacefully, would such a system hold? Would we enjoy a better world where everyone is more equal, or would scarcity rule and everyone be poor now?
reality-check economy
$endgroup$
Modern capitalism is considered as the most successful form of economy (and it clearly works better than, say, communism), but it too has its flaws. One of the most glaring ones (in my opinion) is the ability for rich people to get richer infinitely, eventually resulting in what is known as "large income inequality" - a handful of super-rich people own everything and vast swaths of poor people work for scraps in order to make the super-rich people even richer.
This is baked into the system and the way current governments are handling it is by artificially limiting the system. There are progressive taxes and wealth redistribution; anti-monopoly laws; etc. Still, it all feels like just a patch.
And I got wondering - could a better economical system be designed without this flaw in the first place?
So, how do rich people get so rich? Well, through owning stuff that makes them money. A single person, no matter how hard working, can only produce only so much value per 24 hours. You can't get very rich that way. So the way that rich people get rich is that they buy things which they then rent to other people. It's the perfect scheme - the owners don't need to do anything, but the money keeps coming in, infinitely. There are various things that are being rented/loaned - real estate, cars, money itself, even companies (companies are a weird case where the company owner is renting the company to their employees, and the employees pay back with a share of the income from their work).
And this works so well because the more money you have, the more things you can buy to rent out, and your income just keeps increasing exponentially.
So my question is - what if this was explicitly forbidden? What would happen?
- We start of with a typical western capitalist economy; today's level of technology.
- All forms of rent are forbidden. You can still own things and keep them to yourself, but if you give them to others, you're not allowed to charge for it.
- This includes lending money, renting apartments, paid parking, car rentals, etc. In essence, you cannot get money from simply owning stuff anymore. You also need to put it work.
- You can however let others borrow your stuff for free if you feel like you don't need it.
- You are also allowed to charge a small, reasonable amount for wear and tear. For example, if you're lending a car, that car will need repairs eventually, and you can calculate the average wear and charge that much (and, of course, gas money). Similarly for renting an apartment, etc.
- In addition, if you've bought the thing explicitly for lending it to others, you can also charge a part of the original expense for the first customers, so that, say, the first 1000 customers pay off the price of your new car. After the original expense has been repaid however, you can no longer charge this fee. It's up to you to decide how many customers you will spread this out over.
- Some small black market would probably exist, but the authorities would be working against it.
Would this work? I expect that if such a change would be implemented suddenly, the world would burn. But assuming we can somehow (slowly?) get there peacefully, would such a system hold? Would we enjoy a better world where everyone is more equal, or would scarcity rule and everyone be poor now?
reality-check economy
reality-check economy
asked 8 hours ago
Vilx-Vilx-
3401 silver badge8 bronze badges
3401 silver badge8 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Well, just try to imagine a world in which rental apartments (or any type of housing) do not exist.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
7 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
I think you'd get more in-depth responses if you asked this over on economics.stackexchange.com. But my guess is it would have little effect on the status quo. The market model may have somewhat of a different structure to it, but (assuming we're sticking to capitalism) supply and demand would still reign supreme i.e. there would still be a massive disproportion between rich and poor.
$endgroup$
– b1nary.atr0phy
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Could you expand somewhat on what you mean by words like better and successful? The arguments that favor less-restricted capitalism aren't about working vs. total failure, but relative efficiencies. What is described here seems like a deflated version of the current capitalist system, or a hybridized system of capitalist market organization and price controls. (For reference: systems like that have existed, including in the U.S., within the last half-century or so).
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If you're allowed to charge rent equal to the sum of your purchase price, how does this system prevent you from just selling the property when you run out, and getting a new one? e.g. I spend $1 million on an apartment building, I charge my tenants a total of a million in rent over however many years, I sell it and buy a new one... now I have a million in collectable rent on the new building.
$endgroup$
– Cadence
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
There are multiple misconceptions about economics that form the basis of your question, which make it hard to give a good answer. The two most glaring ones are that you think "value" is objective (it isn't), and that the beneficiaries of income inequality are static (e.g. "the rich" might get richer over time, but "the rich" is a group whose membership changes frequently). I may expand this into an answer later.
$endgroup$
– Joe
5 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
1
$begingroup$
Well, just try to imagine a world in which rental apartments (or any type of housing) do not exist.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
7 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
I think you'd get more in-depth responses if you asked this over on economics.stackexchange.com. But my guess is it would have little effect on the status quo. The market model may have somewhat of a different structure to it, but (assuming we're sticking to capitalism) supply and demand would still reign supreme i.e. there would still be a massive disproportion between rich and poor.
$endgroup$
– b1nary.atr0phy
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Could you expand somewhat on what you mean by words like better and successful? The arguments that favor less-restricted capitalism aren't about working vs. total failure, but relative efficiencies. What is described here seems like a deflated version of the current capitalist system, or a hybridized system of capitalist market organization and price controls. (For reference: systems like that have existed, including in the U.S., within the last half-century or so).
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If you're allowed to charge rent equal to the sum of your purchase price, how does this system prevent you from just selling the property when you run out, and getting a new one? e.g. I spend $1 million on an apartment building, I charge my tenants a total of a million in rent over however many years, I sell it and buy a new one... now I have a million in collectable rent on the new building.
$endgroup$
– Cadence
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
There are multiple misconceptions about economics that form the basis of your question, which make it hard to give a good answer. The two most glaring ones are that you think "value" is objective (it isn't), and that the beneficiaries of income inequality are static (e.g. "the rich" might get richer over time, but "the rich" is a group whose membership changes frequently). I may expand this into an answer later.
$endgroup$
– Joe
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Well, just try to imagine a world in which rental apartments (or any type of housing) do not exist.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, just try to imagine a world in which rental apartments (or any type of housing) do not exist.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
7 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
I think you'd get more in-depth responses if you asked this over on economics.stackexchange.com. But my guess is it would have little effect on the status quo. The market model may have somewhat of a different structure to it, but (assuming we're sticking to capitalism) supply and demand would still reign supreme i.e. there would still be a massive disproportion between rich and poor.
$endgroup$
– b1nary.atr0phy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think you'd get more in-depth responses if you asked this over on economics.stackexchange.com. But my guess is it would have little effect on the status quo. The market model may have somewhat of a different structure to it, but (assuming we're sticking to capitalism) supply and demand would still reign supreme i.e. there would still be a massive disproportion between rich and poor.
$endgroup$
– b1nary.atr0phy
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Could you expand somewhat on what you mean by words like better and successful? The arguments that favor less-restricted capitalism aren't about working vs. total failure, but relative efficiencies. What is described here seems like a deflated version of the current capitalist system, or a hybridized system of capitalist market organization and price controls. (For reference: systems like that have existed, including in the U.S., within the last half-century or so).
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Could you expand somewhat on what you mean by words like better and successful? The arguments that favor less-restricted capitalism aren't about working vs. total failure, but relative efficiencies. What is described here seems like a deflated version of the current capitalist system, or a hybridized system of capitalist market organization and price controls. (For reference: systems like that have existed, including in the U.S., within the last half-century or so).
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
7 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
If you're allowed to charge rent equal to the sum of your purchase price, how does this system prevent you from just selling the property when you run out, and getting a new one? e.g. I spend $1 million on an apartment building, I charge my tenants a total of a million in rent over however many years, I sell it and buy a new one... now I have a million in collectable rent on the new building.
$endgroup$
– Cadence
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you're allowed to charge rent equal to the sum of your purchase price, how does this system prevent you from just selling the property when you run out, and getting a new one? e.g. I spend $1 million on an apartment building, I charge my tenants a total of a million in rent over however many years, I sell it and buy a new one... now I have a million in collectable rent on the new building.
$endgroup$
– Cadence
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
There are multiple misconceptions about economics that form the basis of your question, which make it hard to give a good answer. The two most glaring ones are that you think "value" is objective (it isn't), and that the beneficiaries of income inequality are static (e.g. "the rich" might get richer over time, but "the rich" is a group whose membership changes frequently). I may expand this into an answer later.
$endgroup$
– Joe
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are multiple misconceptions about economics that form the basis of your question, which make it hard to give a good answer. The two most glaring ones are that you think "value" is objective (it isn't), and that the beneficiaries of income inequality are static (e.g. "the rich" might get richer over time, but "the rich" is a group whose membership changes frequently). I may expand this into an answer later.
$endgroup$
– Joe
5 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
6 Answers
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oldest
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Nothing would change.
In this world, the CEOs of large "free-lending" companies would make millions on repair fees, gas fees, and any other kind of reimbursements simply by charging them more than it costs to fix it.
Even if charging the customer more than it costs to fix it is not allowed - which prevents profit - money will always be used to make more money. Money that goes into research and development leads to better products, which people then purchase, which gives the company more money, etc. And the poor folk will have no money for research and development.
As long as companies are able to be created, as long as people can have different amounts of wealth based on the services they are able to provide - an equal society won't happen.
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totally agree that people will find a way to make money in any regime.
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– Bald Bear
7 hours ago
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Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees.They are the ones who did labor to earn the cash, so they get to keep it, not some uninvolved company owner.
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– Vilx-
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx- If the company owner doesn't make a percent of profits, then there is no reason for people to start companies. Then people will only work for themselves, and this would cause technological development to come to a halt. There would be no organized...anything.
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– overlord
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees." This is the overarching plot of Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't end well for most of the characters.
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– Renan
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@overlord That's only true if the new hire doesn't offer enough marginal productivity to justify their hiring in the first place, which is similarly true with most income distribution schemes, and isn't fundamentally prevented by uneven income distribution or rents. Organization would still happen, it just wouldn't be the same as organization around the higher profit motive.
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– Upper_Case
5 hours ago
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show 1 more comment
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Unless we're creative, we just outlawed:
1) Hotels (no more renting a room for night)
2) Paid highways, paid parking (because you're effectively renting them for drivers)
3) Power grid, internet access (as we're renting its transfer capability, right?)
Practically any infrastructure is no longer able to be private and rented to multiple users. It actually encourages monopolies, as vertical integration of services is the only viable model in order to avoid being accused of renting.
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Not really outlawed. You're just not allowed to make a profit from them. You are welcome to charge whatever costs are necessary maintain and improve the things - but not adding a profit margin. Basically, all businesses become non-profits.
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– Vilx-
3 hours ago
3
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@Vix: "All businesses become non-profits" is equivalent with "nobody does business".
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– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment
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Plenty of people tried to come up with a better economic system than capitalism, but without much luck. So you are in good company here :)
There are a few problems with your scheme.
What about owner-operated business? The building and equipment belong to the owner, who also works as CEO, other workers are hired. Do you pay the CEO the "reasonable CEO wage", and take away the rest of the profit as tax? There is no way to determine reasonable CEO wage b/c each business is different, and every person has different skill and effort. And profit is the main motivation for owner to do their best. Fixed salary=fixed effort.
Paid labor is essentially renting one's time. I guess you exclude that, but the line between thing and labor is blurry. What if you rent out a house, but also provide lawn care and other maintenance? The renters should pay you for your labor, but how much? Different houses require different amount of time and effort to maintain. And house can be maintained at different levels, from spotless luxury to barely habitable.
What is the "reasonable amount for wear and tear"? Even annual "oil change" on a car is actually a maintenance that can include (or not) several different things. Also, Do you charge for deep-cleaning the car every month, vacuumed once a year, or let it become soiled?
Rental fee should also include the risk of rented item being destroyed. E.g. car crash. I guess you can get insurance rate for that. But insurance never covers 100%, and you might know the renter better than the insurance company.
I also need to think some more about inflation. Your setup is not banning it explicitly, but you do ban bank interest, and that will reduce inflation, maybe even to zero.
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Wide company, not good company. The OP is in company with such diverse people as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc.
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– puppetsock
5 hours ago
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@puppetsock - Nah, communism pretty much has proven that it's a failure. The end of private property is not what I'm suggesting here. People can still own stuff like before - just not profit simply by the virtue of owning them. In other words, you can be paid for work, and not doing any work means not getting any pay.
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– Vilx-
3 hours ago
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@Vilx - If you don't want people to make profit just from owning stuff, why doesn't this imply the socialist conclusion that people should not be able to profit by owning "means of production" (machinery in factories, for example), and paying workers a salary to use those means of production to make goods? One can argue the owners of the means of production are still contributing something by assuming the risk that the goods they choose to pay workers to manufacture won't sell enough to make a profit, but the same would be true for people who buy and fix up real estate in order to rent it out.
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– Hypnosifl
2 hours ago
add a comment
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$begingroup$
The question deeply misunderstands and misstates a large variety of economic conditions.
First, the notion that in capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is grossly false. In capitalism, everybody gets richer.
The most importang graph in the world shows us this. And Gapminder's fantastic graphs show us the data in splendid animated beauty. Before capitalism, personal material wealth was stagnant for centuries, for millenia. Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor. And those who are still poor will almost exclusively be in non-capitalist countries.
The notion that there are strict limits on production of wealth is simply wrong. Wealth can be leveraged, produced in bulk. 1000 years ago, the wealth of the poorest populations in capitalist countries would have been beyond the reach of the most resplendent emperors.
It's not any "1 percent" that owns the wealth. How many houses in the USA? How many bank accounts? How many pension funds? How many iPhones? How many personal computers?
The notion that people would be better off if renting was prevented is simply risible at best. Renting is cheaper than buying, so in many situations it is a net benefit to the renter. A net financial benefit. Banning it would make him poorer. The fact it would make a property owner poorer also can only be attractive if you like hurting people.
Giving a government the power to prevent such financial benefit is giving them the power to destroy. Nobody will be better off, and many people will be much worse off. The very best you can hope for is stagnation. But the expected result, from looking at countries that try it, is mass murder. From Hayek's Road To Serfdom, to the tens of millions in the former USSR, to the tens of millions in PRC, to the killing fields of Cambodia, to the dreary list of horrors to be found in The Black Book of Communism, there is no apparent end to how horrible it will get.
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It never ceases to amaze me that people can't read things the other way around - can't lend money means you can't get a loan. Can't rent out property means you can't rent an apartment, or a location for your small business, or a car, or that heavy equipment you would need to clear land to build your own building because you can't rent one... The axe swung in secret jealousy of "the rich guy" ends up embedded in your own leg.
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– Jedediah
4 hours ago
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"Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor." What's the basis for that? The graph you cite only shows GDP per person, which doesn't tell you if GDP gains are increasing wealth/income in a fairly proportional way or are mainly benefiting the wealthiest segment of the country. As argued in this article, if global poverty line defined as $7.40 a day (major health hazards below that), in the 32 year span we have good data (1981-2013) the % of ppl below this has only dropped from 71% to 58%.
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– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
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(cont.) Also, the article points out that most of that 13% drop in poverty has come from the "east asian tigers", especially China, which used a mix of socialism and capitalism rather than something closer to "pure" free market capitalism, and that if you factor out China, the global poverty from 1981-2013 has barely dropped at all.
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– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
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@Hypnosifl: Yes, if we exclude the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty then we find that we have excluded the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty. You can make similar graphs for the production of electric vehicles excluding Tesla, number of people who went to space in the last decade excluding those who travelled on a Russian Soyuz rocket, number of smart phones excluding iPhone and Android, number of digital cameras excluding those with Sony sensors, percentage of data stored on solid-state devices excluding Intel and Samsung, etc. etc.
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– AlexP
2 hours ago
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@AlexP - Are you talking about the success of capitalism in reducing poverty, or China's system? If the latter, do you see that as confirming or complicating puppetsock's argument that capitalism is the best way for everyone to get richer? China is described as a socialist market economy with extensive state ownership of many enterprises, so if it does significantly better at lifting people out of poverty than traditional capitalism where most business is privately owned, I'd say it complicates puppetsock's argument.
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– Hypnosifl
50 mins ago
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You're trying to "fix" things from the top down. That's just like communism, fascism, etc... it doesn't work. We have the ghosts of a hundred million people telling us it doesn't work.
People are people and will do people things no matter the threat screamed at them or treat dangled in front of them. Going against human nature only succeeds in bringing unnecessary suffering into the world.
If you want to change the economic outcome in your world you'll have to take into account human nature. So, you'll want to find for your world a living breathing example of the outcome you want.
My example is the apocryphal story of a sushi restaurant in New Zealand.
One day, after lots of preparation and hard work, a couple opened a sushi
restaurant in Aukland. Word got around that they were great. After a
few months they did so much business they could meet all their
financial goals for the week by Wednesday. So, they'd take the rest of
the week off. Still, their success grew. Eventually they did enough
business in a few years they could retire. And they did. They closed
down the restaurant, bought a nice bungalow on the beach and happily
drank beers and watched rugby until the end of their days.
This is what you want. Make people want just enough to make themselves and their immediate loved ones happy and comfortable.
How?
Culture sculpting. Movies, stories, songs, etc...
Make egregious luxuries and gratuitous wealth just in bad taste and bad tasting. "Why would I want a new car? My 10 year old honda works just fine."
Make inheritance seem ugly and insulting. "Why would I give my children a lot of money? If they can't earn it themselves they'll waste it." (Jackie Chan has basically said this) This is the real lynch pin to reducing income inequality. If you don't have static and sterile cesspools of wealth not creating value, but only creating more money then it's free to move around and do actual work.
Sure you'll get people addicted to creating businesses and wealth because you haven't gotten rid of the inherent benefits. Still, you'll severely undercut rent-seeking (which is what you're trying to get rid of) because IMHO rent seeking is a greed fueling behavior.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp
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Having an ample supply of "people addicted to creating businesses" is a good thing for anybody who needs a job and doesn't have the necessary skills to create a business of their own.
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– krb
4 hours ago
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I've never heard about rent-seeking before this. I read the Wikipedia article now and... I kinda find it hard to draw a line between "normal rent" and "rent-seeking". If I own a plot of land that I'm not using myself, and I'm letting people leave their cars there for a fee (aka a paid parking lot), is this really any different from the "chain across the river" example that was mentioned in the Wikipedia article?
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– Vilx-
3 hours ago
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Let's try working through this. By the way, this was codified in Deuteronomy by Moses and supposedly practiced by pre-monarchy Israel in antiquity, but the specifics on how this worked out aren't well recorded.
For small businesses, loans could still be made, but would have to be done without interest. Seed money can come from personal savings and benefactors.
Mid sized businesses can also exist. The most primitive definitions of non-slave labor are like contracting: payment per some unit of measure - day of work, goods delivered, goods manufactured. To keep it rent free, the trailings would be available for the poor and strangers to pick over. This created a legal problem as suggested in the book of Ruth - criminals would hide among the fields to ambush and abuse people trying to collect the leftovers.
As to industry - who owns the winepress I set up? It was not, in fact, uncommon in antiquity for someone to build and abandon (or gift to the community) a small piece of public infrastructure. You can probably see, however, that this will have problems scaling up from the simple well or olive press. It's not a violation of the no rent rule, possibly, for a family to personally operate their own press and insist people allow them to perform the labor for a fee.
How would trade work? If you entrust your goods to a trader to take across the continent for trade, when are those goods considered abandoned or rent? I would guess, as with infrastructure, it slips into the public good as soon as you give up working it... Therefore, families would have to cart their own goods to market.
Large industry would be possible. It could take at least two forms: large trustworthy families (think the Medicis) actively managing (and keeping control of) a widespread operation. Or, one or more investors could entrust operation of a large facility or network to a group of managers, who technically now own the piece of tooling or goods (thinking ocean-going trade ships or light factories), and can reassign (on their retirement) the goods and property to someone else. This might be done by a large wealthy family because they want to accomplish some goal : open a trade route, create a sub-assembly supplier. Auto companies have actually engaged in this in near history.
Intellectual property would need to be considered, or not exist. Without government protection of the ownership ideas you have an environment of tightly guarded trade secrets that masters regularly take with them to the grave. Perhaps government could secure an inventors ownership of an idea for some period or life (as is currently done), but require the inventors to be an active participant in the development to market and operation of the idea in order to keep the idea from slipping into the public domain.
Hotels might not exist. The primitive options for travelers were an expectation that every towns' citizens either opened up their homes for visitors (see the last chapters of Judges), or public housing was provided. Such guest houses even provided meals without charge, but you might decide they could charge for food and entertainment.
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6 Answers
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Nothing would change.
In this world, the CEOs of large "free-lending" companies would make millions on repair fees, gas fees, and any other kind of reimbursements simply by charging them more than it costs to fix it.
Even if charging the customer more than it costs to fix it is not allowed - which prevents profit - money will always be used to make more money. Money that goes into research and development leads to better products, which people then purchase, which gives the company more money, etc. And the poor folk will have no money for research and development.
As long as companies are able to be created, as long as people can have different amounts of wealth based on the services they are able to provide - an equal society won't happen.
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4
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totally agree that people will find a way to make money in any regime.
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– Bald Bear
7 hours ago
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Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees.They are the ones who did labor to earn the cash, so they get to keep it, not some uninvolved company owner.
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– Vilx-
7 hours ago
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@Vilx- If the company owner doesn't make a percent of profits, then there is no reason for people to start companies. Then people will only work for themselves, and this would cause technological development to come to a halt. There would be no organized...anything.
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– overlord
7 hours ago
1
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"Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees." This is the overarching plot of Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't end well for most of the characters.
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– Renan
5 hours ago
2
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@overlord That's only true if the new hire doesn't offer enough marginal productivity to justify their hiring in the first place, which is similarly true with most income distribution schemes, and isn't fundamentally prevented by uneven income distribution or rents. Organization would still happen, it just wouldn't be the same as organization around the higher profit motive.
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– Upper_Case
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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Nothing would change.
In this world, the CEOs of large "free-lending" companies would make millions on repair fees, gas fees, and any other kind of reimbursements simply by charging them more than it costs to fix it.
Even if charging the customer more than it costs to fix it is not allowed - which prevents profit - money will always be used to make more money. Money that goes into research and development leads to better products, which people then purchase, which gives the company more money, etc. And the poor folk will have no money for research and development.
As long as companies are able to be created, as long as people can have different amounts of wealth based on the services they are able to provide - an equal society won't happen.
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4
$begingroup$
totally agree that people will find a way to make money in any regime.
$endgroup$
– Bald Bear
7 hours ago
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Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees.They are the ones who did labor to earn the cash, so they get to keep it, not some uninvolved company owner.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx- If the company owner doesn't make a percent of profits, then there is no reason for people to start companies. Then people will only work for themselves, and this would cause technological development to come to a halt. There would be no organized...anything.
$endgroup$
– overlord
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees." This is the overarching plot of Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't end well for most of the characters.
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– Renan
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@overlord That's only true if the new hire doesn't offer enough marginal productivity to justify their hiring in the first place, which is similarly true with most income distribution schemes, and isn't fundamentally prevented by uneven income distribution or rents. Organization would still happen, it just wouldn't be the same as organization around the higher profit motive.
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Nothing would change.
In this world, the CEOs of large "free-lending" companies would make millions on repair fees, gas fees, and any other kind of reimbursements simply by charging them more than it costs to fix it.
Even if charging the customer more than it costs to fix it is not allowed - which prevents profit - money will always be used to make more money. Money that goes into research and development leads to better products, which people then purchase, which gives the company more money, etc. And the poor folk will have no money for research and development.
As long as companies are able to be created, as long as people can have different amounts of wealth based on the services they are able to provide - an equal society won't happen.
$endgroup$
Nothing would change.
In this world, the CEOs of large "free-lending" companies would make millions on repair fees, gas fees, and any other kind of reimbursements simply by charging them more than it costs to fix it.
Even if charging the customer more than it costs to fix it is not allowed - which prevents profit - money will always be used to make more money. Money that goes into research and development leads to better products, which people then purchase, which gives the company more money, etc. And the poor folk will have no money for research and development.
As long as companies are able to be created, as long as people can have different amounts of wealth based on the services they are able to provide - an equal society won't happen.
answered 7 hours ago
overlordoverlord
1,0942 silver badges16 bronze badges
1,0942 silver badges16 bronze badges
4
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totally agree that people will find a way to make money in any regime.
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– Bald Bear
7 hours ago
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Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees.They are the ones who did labor to earn the cash, so they get to keep it, not some uninvolved company owner.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
7 hours ago
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@Vilx- If the company owner doesn't make a percent of profits, then there is no reason for people to start companies. Then people will only work for themselves, and this would cause technological development to come to a halt. There would be no organized...anything.
$endgroup$
– overlord
7 hours ago
1
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"Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees." This is the overarching plot of Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't end well for most of the characters.
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– Renan
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@overlord That's only true if the new hire doesn't offer enough marginal productivity to justify their hiring in the first place, which is similarly true with most income distribution schemes, and isn't fundamentally prevented by uneven income distribution or rents. Organization would still happen, it just wouldn't be the same as organization around the higher profit motive.
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– Upper_Case
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
4
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totally agree that people will find a way to make money in any regime.
$endgroup$
– Bald Bear
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees.They are the ones who did labor to earn the cash, so they get to keep it, not some uninvolved company owner.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx- If the company owner doesn't make a percent of profits, then there is no reason for people to start companies. Then people will only work for themselves, and this would cause technological development to come to a halt. There would be no organized...anything.
$endgroup$
– overlord
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees." This is the overarching plot of Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't end well for most of the characters.
$endgroup$
– Renan
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@overlord That's only true if the new hire doesn't offer enough marginal productivity to justify their hiring in the first place, which is similarly true with most income distribution schemes, and isn't fundamentally prevented by uneven income distribution or rents. Organization would still happen, it just wouldn't be the same as organization around the higher profit motive.
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
5 hours ago
4
4
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totally agree that people will find a way to make money in any regime.
$endgroup$
– Bald Bear
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
totally agree that people will find a way to make money in any regime.
$endgroup$
– Bald Bear
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees.They are the ones who did labor to earn the cash, so they get to keep it, not some uninvolved company owner.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees.They are the ones who did labor to earn the cash, so they get to keep it, not some uninvolved company owner.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx- If the company owner doesn't make a percent of profits, then there is no reason for people to start companies. Then people will only work for themselves, and this would cause technological development to come to a halt. There would be no organized...anything.
$endgroup$
– overlord
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx- If the company owner doesn't make a percent of profits, then there is no reason for people to start companies. Then people will only work for themselves, and this would cause technological development to come to a halt. There would be no organized...anything.
$endgroup$
– overlord
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
"Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees." This is the overarching plot of Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't end well for most of the characters.
$endgroup$
– Renan
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Well, yes, I was thinking about preventing profit. Or rather - the profit would have to be distributed equally among the employees." This is the overarching plot of Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't end well for most of the characters.
$endgroup$
– Renan
5 hours ago
2
2
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@overlord That's only true if the new hire doesn't offer enough marginal productivity to justify their hiring in the first place, which is similarly true with most income distribution schemes, and isn't fundamentally prevented by uneven income distribution or rents. Organization would still happen, it just wouldn't be the same as organization around the higher profit motive.
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@overlord That's only true if the new hire doesn't offer enough marginal productivity to justify their hiring in the first place, which is similarly true with most income distribution schemes, and isn't fundamentally prevented by uneven income distribution or rents. Organization would still happen, it just wouldn't be the same as organization around the higher profit motive.
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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Unless we're creative, we just outlawed:
1) Hotels (no more renting a room for night)
2) Paid highways, paid parking (because you're effectively renting them for drivers)
3) Power grid, internet access (as we're renting its transfer capability, right?)
Practically any infrastructure is no longer able to be private and rented to multiple users. It actually encourages monopolies, as vertical integration of services is the only viable model in order to avoid being accused of renting.
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Not really outlawed. You're just not allowed to make a profit from them. You are welcome to charge whatever costs are necessary maintain and improve the things - but not adding a profit margin. Basically, all businesses become non-profits.
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– Vilx-
3 hours ago
3
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@Vix: "All businesses become non-profits" is equivalent with "nobody does business".
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– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment
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$begingroup$
Unless we're creative, we just outlawed:
1) Hotels (no more renting a room for night)
2) Paid highways, paid parking (because you're effectively renting them for drivers)
3) Power grid, internet access (as we're renting its transfer capability, right?)
Practically any infrastructure is no longer able to be private and rented to multiple users. It actually encourages monopolies, as vertical integration of services is the only viable model in order to avoid being accused of renting.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Not really outlawed. You're just not allowed to make a profit from them. You are welcome to charge whatever costs are necessary maintain and improve the things - but not adding a profit margin. Basically, all businesses become non-profits.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Vix: "All businesses become non-profits" is equivalent with "nobody does business".
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Unless we're creative, we just outlawed:
1) Hotels (no more renting a room for night)
2) Paid highways, paid parking (because you're effectively renting them for drivers)
3) Power grid, internet access (as we're renting its transfer capability, right?)
Practically any infrastructure is no longer able to be private and rented to multiple users. It actually encourages monopolies, as vertical integration of services is the only viable model in order to avoid being accused of renting.
$endgroup$
Unless we're creative, we just outlawed:
1) Hotels (no more renting a room for night)
2) Paid highways, paid parking (because you're effectively renting them for drivers)
3) Power grid, internet access (as we're renting its transfer capability, right?)
Practically any infrastructure is no longer able to be private and rented to multiple users. It actually encourages monopolies, as vertical integration of services is the only viable model in order to avoid being accused of renting.
answered 6 hours ago
Shadow1024Shadow1024
6,39712 silver badges36 bronze badges
6,39712 silver badges36 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Not really outlawed. You're just not allowed to make a profit from them. You are welcome to charge whatever costs are necessary maintain and improve the things - but not adding a profit margin. Basically, all businesses become non-profits.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Vix: "All businesses become non-profits" is equivalent with "nobody does business".
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Not really outlawed. You're just not allowed to make a profit from them. You are welcome to charge whatever costs are necessary maintain and improve the things - but not adding a profit margin. Basically, all businesses become non-profits.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Vix: "All businesses become non-profits" is equivalent with "nobody does business".
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Not really outlawed. You're just not allowed to make a profit from them. You are welcome to charge whatever costs are necessary maintain and improve the things - but not adding a profit margin. Basically, all businesses become non-profits.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Not really outlawed. You're just not allowed to make a profit from them. You are welcome to charge whatever costs are necessary maintain and improve the things - but not adding a profit margin. Basically, all businesses become non-profits.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
@Vix: "All businesses become non-profits" is equivalent with "nobody does business".
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vix: "All businesses become non-profits" is equivalent with "nobody does business".
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment
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$begingroup$
Plenty of people tried to come up with a better economic system than capitalism, but without much luck. So you are in good company here :)
There are a few problems with your scheme.
What about owner-operated business? The building and equipment belong to the owner, who also works as CEO, other workers are hired. Do you pay the CEO the "reasonable CEO wage", and take away the rest of the profit as tax? There is no way to determine reasonable CEO wage b/c each business is different, and every person has different skill and effort. And profit is the main motivation for owner to do their best. Fixed salary=fixed effort.
Paid labor is essentially renting one's time. I guess you exclude that, but the line between thing and labor is blurry. What if you rent out a house, but also provide lawn care and other maintenance? The renters should pay you for your labor, but how much? Different houses require different amount of time and effort to maintain. And house can be maintained at different levels, from spotless luxury to barely habitable.
What is the "reasonable amount for wear and tear"? Even annual "oil change" on a car is actually a maintenance that can include (or not) several different things. Also, Do you charge for deep-cleaning the car every month, vacuumed once a year, or let it become soiled?
Rental fee should also include the risk of rented item being destroyed. E.g. car crash. I guess you can get insurance rate for that. But insurance never covers 100%, and you might know the renter better than the insurance company.
I also need to think some more about inflation. Your setup is not banning it explicitly, but you do ban bank interest, and that will reduce inflation, maybe even to zero.
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Wide company, not good company. The OP is in company with such diverse people as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc.
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– puppetsock
5 hours ago
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@puppetsock - Nah, communism pretty much has proven that it's a failure. The end of private property is not what I'm suggesting here. People can still own stuff like before - just not profit simply by the virtue of owning them. In other words, you can be paid for work, and not doing any work means not getting any pay.
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– Vilx-
3 hours ago
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@Vilx - If you don't want people to make profit just from owning stuff, why doesn't this imply the socialist conclusion that people should not be able to profit by owning "means of production" (machinery in factories, for example), and paying workers a salary to use those means of production to make goods? One can argue the owners of the means of production are still contributing something by assuming the risk that the goods they choose to pay workers to manufacture won't sell enough to make a profit, but the same would be true for people who buy and fix up real estate in order to rent it out.
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– Hypnosifl
2 hours ago
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$begingroup$
Plenty of people tried to come up with a better economic system than capitalism, but without much luck. So you are in good company here :)
There are a few problems with your scheme.
What about owner-operated business? The building and equipment belong to the owner, who also works as CEO, other workers are hired. Do you pay the CEO the "reasonable CEO wage", and take away the rest of the profit as tax? There is no way to determine reasonable CEO wage b/c each business is different, and every person has different skill and effort. And profit is the main motivation for owner to do their best. Fixed salary=fixed effort.
Paid labor is essentially renting one's time. I guess you exclude that, but the line between thing and labor is blurry. What if you rent out a house, but also provide lawn care and other maintenance? The renters should pay you for your labor, but how much? Different houses require different amount of time and effort to maintain. And house can be maintained at different levels, from spotless luxury to barely habitable.
What is the "reasonable amount for wear and tear"? Even annual "oil change" on a car is actually a maintenance that can include (or not) several different things. Also, Do you charge for deep-cleaning the car every month, vacuumed once a year, or let it become soiled?
Rental fee should also include the risk of rented item being destroyed. E.g. car crash. I guess you can get insurance rate for that. But insurance never covers 100%, and you might know the renter better than the insurance company.
I also need to think some more about inflation. Your setup is not banning it explicitly, but you do ban bank interest, and that will reduce inflation, maybe even to zero.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Wide company, not good company. The OP is in company with such diverse people as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– puppetsock
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@puppetsock - Nah, communism pretty much has proven that it's a failure. The end of private property is not what I'm suggesting here. People can still own stuff like before - just not profit simply by the virtue of owning them. In other words, you can be paid for work, and not doing any work means not getting any pay.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx - If you don't want people to make profit just from owning stuff, why doesn't this imply the socialist conclusion that people should not be able to profit by owning "means of production" (machinery in factories, for example), and paying workers a salary to use those means of production to make goods? One can argue the owners of the means of production are still contributing something by assuming the risk that the goods they choose to pay workers to manufacture won't sell enough to make a profit, but the same would be true for people who buy and fix up real estate in order to rent it out.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Plenty of people tried to come up with a better economic system than capitalism, but without much luck. So you are in good company here :)
There are a few problems with your scheme.
What about owner-operated business? The building and equipment belong to the owner, who also works as CEO, other workers are hired. Do you pay the CEO the "reasonable CEO wage", and take away the rest of the profit as tax? There is no way to determine reasonable CEO wage b/c each business is different, and every person has different skill and effort. And profit is the main motivation for owner to do their best. Fixed salary=fixed effort.
Paid labor is essentially renting one's time. I guess you exclude that, but the line between thing and labor is blurry. What if you rent out a house, but also provide lawn care and other maintenance? The renters should pay you for your labor, but how much? Different houses require different amount of time and effort to maintain. And house can be maintained at different levels, from spotless luxury to barely habitable.
What is the "reasonable amount for wear and tear"? Even annual "oil change" on a car is actually a maintenance that can include (or not) several different things. Also, Do you charge for deep-cleaning the car every month, vacuumed once a year, or let it become soiled?
Rental fee should also include the risk of rented item being destroyed. E.g. car crash. I guess you can get insurance rate for that. But insurance never covers 100%, and you might know the renter better than the insurance company.
I also need to think some more about inflation. Your setup is not banning it explicitly, but you do ban bank interest, and that will reduce inflation, maybe even to zero.
$endgroup$
Plenty of people tried to come up with a better economic system than capitalism, but without much luck. So you are in good company here :)
There are a few problems with your scheme.
What about owner-operated business? The building and equipment belong to the owner, who also works as CEO, other workers are hired. Do you pay the CEO the "reasonable CEO wage", and take away the rest of the profit as tax? There is no way to determine reasonable CEO wage b/c each business is different, and every person has different skill and effort. And profit is the main motivation for owner to do their best. Fixed salary=fixed effort.
Paid labor is essentially renting one's time. I guess you exclude that, but the line between thing and labor is blurry. What if you rent out a house, but also provide lawn care and other maintenance? The renters should pay you for your labor, but how much? Different houses require different amount of time and effort to maintain. And house can be maintained at different levels, from spotless luxury to barely habitable.
What is the "reasonable amount for wear and tear"? Even annual "oil change" on a car is actually a maintenance that can include (or not) several different things. Also, Do you charge for deep-cleaning the car every month, vacuumed once a year, or let it become soiled?
Rental fee should also include the risk of rented item being destroyed. E.g. car crash. I guess you can get insurance rate for that. But insurance never covers 100%, and you might know the renter better than the insurance company.
I also need to think some more about inflation. Your setup is not banning it explicitly, but you do ban bank interest, and that will reduce inflation, maybe even to zero.
answered 7 hours ago
Bald BearBald Bear
8,63014 silver badges31 bronze badges
8,63014 silver badges31 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Wide company, not good company. The OP is in company with such diverse people as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– puppetsock
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@puppetsock - Nah, communism pretty much has proven that it's a failure. The end of private property is not what I'm suggesting here. People can still own stuff like before - just not profit simply by the virtue of owning them. In other words, you can be paid for work, and not doing any work means not getting any pay.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx - If you don't want people to make profit just from owning stuff, why doesn't this imply the socialist conclusion that people should not be able to profit by owning "means of production" (machinery in factories, for example), and paying workers a salary to use those means of production to make goods? One can argue the owners of the means of production are still contributing something by assuming the risk that the goods they choose to pay workers to manufacture won't sell enough to make a profit, but the same would be true for people who buy and fix up real estate in order to rent it out.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
1
$begingroup$
Wide company, not good company. The OP is in company with such diverse people as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– puppetsock
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@puppetsock - Nah, communism pretty much has proven that it's a failure. The end of private property is not what I'm suggesting here. People can still own stuff like before - just not profit simply by the virtue of owning them. In other words, you can be paid for work, and not doing any work means not getting any pay.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx - If you don't want people to make profit just from owning stuff, why doesn't this imply the socialist conclusion that people should not be able to profit by owning "means of production" (machinery in factories, for example), and paying workers a salary to use those means of production to make goods? One can argue the owners of the means of production are still contributing something by assuming the risk that the goods they choose to pay workers to manufacture won't sell enough to make a profit, but the same would be true for people who buy and fix up real estate in order to rent it out.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Wide company, not good company. The OP is in company with such diverse people as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– puppetsock
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Wide company, not good company. The OP is in company with such diverse people as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– puppetsock
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@puppetsock - Nah, communism pretty much has proven that it's a failure. The end of private property is not what I'm suggesting here. People can still own stuff like before - just not profit simply by the virtue of owning them. In other words, you can be paid for work, and not doing any work means not getting any pay.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@puppetsock - Nah, communism pretty much has proven that it's a failure. The end of private property is not what I'm suggesting here. People can still own stuff like before - just not profit simply by the virtue of owning them. In other words, you can be paid for work, and not doing any work means not getting any pay.
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx - If you don't want people to make profit just from owning stuff, why doesn't this imply the socialist conclusion that people should not be able to profit by owning "means of production" (machinery in factories, for example), and paying workers a salary to use those means of production to make goods? One can argue the owners of the means of production are still contributing something by assuming the risk that the goods they choose to pay workers to manufacture won't sell enough to make a profit, but the same would be true for people who buy and fix up real estate in order to rent it out.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Vilx - If you don't want people to make profit just from owning stuff, why doesn't this imply the socialist conclusion that people should not be able to profit by owning "means of production" (machinery in factories, for example), and paying workers a salary to use those means of production to make goods? One can argue the owners of the means of production are still contributing something by assuming the risk that the goods they choose to pay workers to manufacture won't sell enough to make a profit, but the same would be true for people who buy and fix up real estate in order to rent it out.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The question deeply misunderstands and misstates a large variety of economic conditions.
First, the notion that in capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is grossly false. In capitalism, everybody gets richer.
The most importang graph in the world shows us this. And Gapminder's fantastic graphs show us the data in splendid animated beauty. Before capitalism, personal material wealth was stagnant for centuries, for millenia. Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor. And those who are still poor will almost exclusively be in non-capitalist countries.
The notion that there are strict limits on production of wealth is simply wrong. Wealth can be leveraged, produced in bulk. 1000 years ago, the wealth of the poorest populations in capitalist countries would have been beyond the reach of the most resplendent emperors.
It's not any "1 percent" that owns the wealth. How many houses in the USA? How many bank accounts? How many pension funds? How many iPhones? How many personal computers?
The notion that people would be better off if renting was prevented is simply risible at best. Renting is cheaper than buying, so in many situations it is a net benefit to the renter. A net financial benefit. Banning it would make him poorer. The fact it would make a property owner poorer also can only be attractive if you like hurting people.
Giving a government the power to prevent such financial benefit is giving them the power to destroy. Nobody will be better off, and many people will be much worse off. The very best you can hope for is stagnation. But the expected result, from looking at countries that try it, is mass murder. From Hayek's Road To Serfdom, to the tens of millions in the former USSR, to the tens of millions in PRC, to the killing fields of Cambodia, to the dreary list of horrors to be found in The Black Book of Communism, there is no apparent end to how horrible it will get.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It never ceases to amaze me that people can't read things the other way around - can't lend money means you can't get a loan. Can't rent out property means you can't rent an apartment, or a location for your small business, or a car, or that heavy equipment you would need to clear land to build your own building because you can't rent one... The axe swung in secret jealousy of "the rich guy" ends up embedded in your own leg.
$endgroup$
– Jedediah
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor." What's the basis for that? The graph you cite only shows GDP per person, which doesn't tell you if GDP gains are increasing wealth/income in a fairly proportional way or are mainly benefiting the wealthiest segment of the country. As argued in this article, if global poverty line defined as $7.40 a day (major health hazards below that), in the 32 year span we have good data (1981-2013) the % of ppl below this has only dropped from 71% to 58%.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
(cont.) Also, the article points out that most of that 13% drop in poverty has come from the "east asian tigers", especially China, which used a mix of socialism and capitalism rather than something closer to "pure" free market capitalism, and that if you factor out China, the global poverty from 1981-2013 has barely dropped at all.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Hypnosifl: Yes, if we exclude the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty then we find that we have excluded the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty. You can make similar graphs for the production of electric vehicles excluding Tesla, number of people who went to space in the last decade excluding those who travelled on a Russian Soyuz rocket, number of smart phones excluding iPhone and Android, number of digital cameras excluding those with Sony sensors, percentage of data stored on solid-state devices excluding Intel and Samsung, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP - Are you talking about the success of capitalism in reducing poverty, or China's system? If the latter, do you see that as confirming or complicating puppetsock's argument that capitalism is the best way for everyone to get richer? China is described as a socialist market economy with extensive state ownership of many enterprises, so if it does significantly better at lifting people out of poverty than traditional capitalism where most business is privately owned, I'd say it complicates puppetsock's argument.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
50 mins ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The question deeply misunderstands and misstates a large variety of economic conditions.
First, the notion that in capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is grossly false. In capitalism, everybody gets richer.
The most importang graph in the world shows us this. And Gapminder's fantastic graphs show us the data in splendid animated beauty. Before capitalism, personal material wealth was stagnant for centuries, for millenia. Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor. And those who are still poor will almost exclusively be in non-capitalist countries.
The notion that there are strict limits on production of wealth is simply wrong. Wealth can be leveraged, produced in bulk. 1000 years ago, the wealth of the poorest populations in capitalist countries would have been beyond the reach of the most resplendent emperors.
It's not any "1 percent" that owns the wealth. How many houses in the USA? How many bank accounts? How many pension funds? How many iPhones? How many personal computers?
The notion that people would be better off if renting was prevented is simply risible at best. Renting is cheaper than buying, so in many situations it is a net benefit to the renter. A net financial benefit. Banning it would make him poorer. The fact it would make a property owner poorer also can only be attractive if you like hurting people.
Giving a government the power to prevent such financial benefit is giving them the power to destroy. Nobody will be better off, and many people will be much worse off. The very best you can hope for is stagnation. But the expected result, from looking at countries that try it, is mass murder. From Hayek's Road To Serfdom, to the tens of millions in the former USSR, to the tens of millions in PRC, to the killing fields of Cambodia, to the dreary list of horrors to be found in The Black Book of Communism, there is no apparent end to how horrible it will get.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It never ceases to amaze me that people can't read things the other way around - can't lend money means you can't get a loan. Can't rent out property means you can't rent an apartment, or a location for your small business, or a car, or that heavy equipment you would need to clear land to build your own building because you can't rent one... The axe swung in secret jealousy of "the rich guy" ends up embedded in your own leg.
$endgroup$
– Jedediah
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor." What's the basis for that? The graph you cite only shows GDP per person, which doesn't tell you if GDP gains are increasing wealth/income in a fairly proportional way or are mainly benefiting the wealthiest segment of the country. As argued in this article, if global poverty line defined as $7.40 a day (major health hazards below that), in the 32 year span we have good data (1981-2013) the % of ppl below this has only dropped from 71% to 58%.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
(cont.) Also, the article points out that most of that 13% drop in poverty has come from the "east asian tigers", especially China, which used a mix of socialism and capitalism rather than something closer to "pure" free market capitalism, and that if you factor out China, the global poverty from 1981-2013 has barely dropped at all.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Hypnosifl: Yes, if we exclude the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty then we find that we have excluded the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty. You can make similar graphs for the production of electric vehicles excluding Tesla, number of people who went to space in the last decade excluding those who travelled on a Russian Soyuz rocket, number of smart phones excluding iPhone and Android, number of digital cameras excluding those with Sony sensors, percentage of data stored on solid-state devices excluding Intel and Samsung, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP - Are you talking about the success of capitalism in reducing poverty, or China's system? If the latter, do you see that as confirming or complicating puppetsock's argument that capitalism is the best way for everyone to get richer? China is described as a socialist market economy with extensive state ownership of many enterprises, so if it does significantly better at lifting people out of poverty than traditional capitalism where most business is privately owned, I'd say it complicates puppetsock's argument.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
50 mins ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The question deeply misunderstands and misstates a large variety of economic conditions.
First, the notion that in capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is grossly false. In capitalism, everybody gets richer.
The most importang graph in the world shows us this. And Gapminder's fantastic graphs show us the data in splendid animated beauty. Before capitalism, personal material wealth was stagnant for centuries, for millenia. Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor. And those who are still poor will almost exclusively be in non-capitalist countries.
The notion that there are strict limits on production of wealth is simply wrong. Wealth can be leveraged, produced in bulk. 1000 years ago, the wealth of the poorest populations in capitalist countries would have been beyond the reach of the most resplendent emperors.
It's not any "1 percent" that owns the wealth. How many houses in the USA? How many bank accounts? How many pension funds? How many iPhones? How many personal computers?
The notion that people would be better off if renting was prevented is simply risible at best. Renting is cheaper than buying, so in many situations it is a net benefit to the renter. A net financial benefit. Banning it would make him poorer. The fact it would make a property owner poorer also can only be attractive if you like hurting people.
Giving a government the power to prevent such financial benefit is giving them the power to destroy. Nobody will be better off, and many people will be much worse off. The very best you can hope for is stagnation. But the expected result, from looking at countries that try it, is mass murder. From Hayek's Road To Serfdom, to the tens of millions in the former USSR, to the tens of millions in PRC, to the killing fields of Cambodia, to the dreary list of horrors to be found in The Black Book of Communism, there is no apparent end to how horrible it will get.
$endgroup$
The question deeply misunderstands and misstates a large variety of economic conditions.
First, the notion that in capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is grossly false. In capitalism, everybody gets richer.
The most importang graph in the world shows us this. And Gapminder's fantastic graphs show us the data in splendid animated beauty. Before capitalism, personal material wealth was stagnant for centuries, for millenia. Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor. And those who are still poor will almost exclusively be in non-capitalist countries.
The notion that there are strict limits on production of wealth is simply wrong. Wealth can be leveraged, produced in bulk. 1000 years ago, the wealth of the poorest populations in capitalist countries would have been beyond the reach of the most resplendent emperors.
It's not any "1 percent" that owns the wealth. How many houses in the USA? How many bank accounts? How many pension funds? How many iPhones? How many personal computers?
The notion that people would be better off if renting was prevented is simply risible at best. Renting is cheaper than buying, so in many situations it is a net benefit to the renter. A net financial benefit. Banning it would make him poorer. The fact it would make a property owner poorer also can only be attractive if you like hurting people.
Giving a government the power to prevent such financial benefit is giving them the power to destroy. Nobody will be better off, and many people will be much worse off. The very best you can hope for is stagnation. But the expected result, from looking at countries that try it, is mass murder. From Hayek's Road To Serfdom, to the tens of millions in the former USSR, to the tens of millions in PRC, to the killing fields of Cambodia, to the dreary list of horrors to be found in The Black Book of Communism, there is no apparent end to how horrible it will get.
answered 4 hours ago
puppetsockpuppetsock
4,1204 silver badges20 bronze badges
4,1204 silver badges20 bronze badges
$begingroup$
It never ceases to amaze me that people can't read things the other way around - can't lend money means you can't get a loan. Can't rent out property means you can't rent an apartment, or a location for your small business, or a car, or that heavy equipment you would need to clear land to build your own building because you can't rent one... The axe swung in secret jealousy of "the rich guy" ends up embedded in your own leg.
$endgroup$
– Jedediah
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor." What's the basis for that? The graph you cite only shows GDP per person, which doesn't tell you if GDP gains are increasing wealth/income in a fairly proportional way or are mainly benefiting the wealthiest segment of the country. As argued in this article, if global poverty line defined as $7.40 a day (major health hazards below that), in the 32 year span we have good data (1981-2013) the % of ppl below this has only dropped from 71% to 58%.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
(cont.) Also, the article points out that most of that 13% drop in poverty has come from the "east asian tigers", especially China, which used a mix of socialism and capitalism rather than something closer to "pure" free market capitalism, and that if you factor out China, the global poverty from 1981-2013 has barely dropped at all.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Hypnosifl: Yes, if we exclude the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty then we find that we have excluded the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty. You can make similar graphs for the production of electric vehicles excluding Tesla, number of people who went to space in the last decade excluding those who travelled on a Russian Soyuz rocket, number of smart phones excluding iPhone and Android, number of digital cameras excluding those with Sony sensors, percentage of data stored on solid-state devices excluding Intel and Samsung, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP - Are you talking about the success of capitalism in reducing poverty, or China's system? If the latter, do you see that as confirming or complicating puppetsock's argument that capitalism is the best way for everyone to get richer? China is described as a socialist market economy with extensive state ownership of many enterprises, so if it does significantly better at lifting people out of poverty than traditional capitalism where most business is privately owned, I'd say it complicates puppetsock's argument.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
50 mins ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
It never ceases to amaze me that people can't read things the other way around - can't lend money means you can't get a loan. Can't rent out property means you can't rent an apartment, or a location for your small business, or a car, or that heavy equipment you would need to clear land to build your own building because you can't rent one... The axe swung in secret jealousy of "the rich guy" ends up embedded in your own leg.
$endgroup$
– Jedediah
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor." What's the basis for that? The graph you cite only shows GDP per person, which doesn't tell you if GDP gains are increasing wealth/income in a fairly proportional way or are mainly benefiting the wealthiest segment of the country. As argued in this article, if global poverty line defined as $7.40 a day (major health hazards below that), in the 32 year span we have good data (1981-2013) the % of ppl below this has only dropped from 71% to 58%.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
(cont.) Also, the article points out that most of that 13% drop in poverty has come from the "east asian tigers", especially China, which used a mix of socialism and capitalism rather than something closer to "pure" free market capitalism, and that if you factor out China, the global poverty from 1981-2013 has barely dropped at all.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Hypnosifl: Yes, if we exclude the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty then we find that we have excluded the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty. You can make similar graphs for the production of electric vehicles excluding Tesla, number of people who went to space in the last decade excluding those who travelled on a Russian Soyuz rocket, number of smart phones excluding iPhone and Android, number of digital cameras excluding those with Sony sensors, percentage of data stored on solid-state devices excluding Intel and Samsung, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP - Are you talking about the success of capitalism in reducing poverty, or China's system? If the latter, do you see that as confirming or complicating puppetsock's argument that capitalism is the best way for everyone to get richer? China is described as a socialist market economy with extensive state ownership of many enterprises, so if it does significantly better at lifting people out of poverty than traditional capitalism where most business is privately owned, I'd say it complicates puppetsock's argument.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
It never ceases to amaze me that people can't read things the other way around - can't lend money means you can't get a loan. Can't rent out property means you can't rent an apartment, or a location for your small business, or a car, or that heavy equipment you would need to clear land to build your own building because you can't rent one... The axe swung in secret jealousy of "the rich guy" ends up embedded in your own leg.
$endgroup$
– Jedediah
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It never ceases to amaze me that people can't read things the other way around - can't lend money means you can't get a loan. Can't rent out property means you can't rent an apartment, or a location for your small business, or a car, or that heavy equipment you would need to clear land to build your own building because you can't rent one... The axe swung in secret jealousy of "the rich guy" ends up embedded in your own leg.
$endgroup$
– Jedediah
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor." What's the basis for that? The graph you cite only shows GDP per person, which doesn't tell you if GDP gains are increasing wealth/income in a fairly proportional way or are mainly benefiting the wealthiest segment of the country. As argued in this article, if global poverty line defined as $7.40 a day (major health hazards below that), in the 32 year span we have good data (1981-2013) the % of ppl below this has only dropped from 71% to 58%.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now it is possible that within two decades there will be almost nobody poor." What's the basis for that? The graph you cite only shows GDP per person, which doesn't tell you if GDP gains are increasing wealth/income in a fairly proportional way or are mainly benefiting the wealthiest segment of the country. As argued in this article, if global poverty line defined as $7.40 a day (major health hazards below that), in the 32 year span we have good data (1981-2013) the % of ppl below this has only dropped from 71% to 58%.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
(cont.) Also, the article points out that most of that 13% drop in poverty has come from the "east asian tigers", especially China, which used a mix of socialism and capitalism rather than something closer to "pure" free market capitalism, and that if you factor out China, the global poverty from 1981-2013 has barely dropped at all.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
(cont.) Also, the article points out that most of that 13% drop in poverty has come from the "east asian tigers", especially China, which used a mix of socialism and capitalism rather than something closer to "pure" free market capitalism, and that if you factor out China, the global poverty from 1981-2013 has barely dropped at all.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Hypnosifl: Yes, if we exclude the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty then we find that we have excluded the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty. You can make similar graphs for the production of electric vehicles excluding Tesla, number of people who went to space in the last decade excluding those who travelled on a Russian Soyuz rocket, number of smart phones excluding iPhone and Android, number of digital cameras excluding those with Sony sensors, percentage of data stored on solid-state devices excluding Intel and Samsung, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Hypnosifl: Yes, if we exclude the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty then we find that we have excluded the greatest success story in lifting people out of poverty. You can make similar graphs for the production of electric vehicles excluding Tesla, number of people who went to space in the last decade excluding those who travelled on a Russian Soyuz rocket, number of smart phones excluding iPhone and Android, number of digital cameras excluding those with Sony sensors, percentage of data stored on solid-state devices excluding Intel and Samsung, etc. etc.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP - Are you talking about the success of capitalism in reducing poverty, or China's system? If the latter, do you see that as confirming or complicating puppetsock's argument that capitalism is the best way for everyone to get richer? China is described as a socialist market economy with extensive state ownership of many enterprises, so if it does significantly better at lifting people out of poverty than traditional capitalism where most business is privately owned, I'd say it complicates puppetsock's argument.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP - Are you talking about the success of capitalism in reducing poverty, or China's system? If the latter, do you see that as confirming or complicating puppetsock's argument that capitalism is the best way for everyone to get richer? China is described as a socialist market economy with extensive state ownership of many enterprises, so if it does significantly better at lifting people out of poverty than traditional capitalism where most business is privately owned, I'd say it complicates puppetsock's argument.
$endgroup$
– Hypnosifl
50 mins ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
You're trying to "fix" things from the top down. That's just like communism, fascism, etc... it doesn't work. We have the ghosts of a hundred million people telling us it doesn't work.
People are people and will do people things no matter the threat screamed at them or treat dangled in front of them. Going against human nature only succeeds in bringing unnecessary suffering into the world.
If you want to change the economic outcome in your world you'll have to take into account human nature. So, you'll want to find for your world a living breathing example of the outcome you want.
My example is the apocryphal story of a sushi restaurant in New Zealand.
One day, after lots of preparation and hard work, a couple opened a sushi
restaurant in Aukland. Word got around that they were great. After a
few months they did so much business they could meet all their
financial goals for the week by Wednesday. So, they'd take the rest of
the week off. Still, their success grew. Eventually they did enough
business in a few years they could retire. And they did. They closed
down the restaurant, bought a nice bungalow on the beach and happily
drank beers and watched rugby until the end of their days.
This is what you want. Make people want just enough to make themselves and their immediate loved ones happy and comfortable.
How?
Culture sculpting. Movies, stories, songs, etc...
Make egregious luxuries and gratuitous wealth just in bad taste and bad tasting. "Why would I want a new car? My 10 year old honda works just fine."
Make inheritance seem ugly and insulting. "Why would I give my children a lot of money? If they can't earn it themselves they'll waste it." (Jackie Chan has basically said this) This is the real lynch pin to reducing income inequality. If you don't have static and sterile cesspools of wealth not creating value, but only creating more money then it's free to move around and do actual work.
Sure you'll get people addicted to creating businesses and wealth because you haven't gotten rid of the inherent benefits. Still, you'll severely undercut rent-seeking (which is what you're trying to get rid of) because IMHO rent seeking is a greed fueling behavior.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Having an ample supply of "people addicted to creating businesses" is a good thing for anybody who needs a job and doesn't have the necessary skills to create a business of their own.
$endgroup$
– krb
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've never heard about rent-seeking before this. I read the Wikipedia article now and... I kinda find it hard to draw a line between "normal rent" and "rent-seeking". If I own a plot of land that I'm not using myself, and I'm letting people leave their cars there for a fee (aka a paid parking lot), is this really any different from the "chain across the river" example that was mentioned in the Wikipedia article?
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
You're trying to "fix" things from the top down. That's just like communism, fascism, etc... it doesn't work. We have the ghosts of a hundred million people telling us it doesn't work.
People are people and will do people things no matter the threat screamed at them or treat dangled in front of them. Going against human nature only succeeds in bringing unnecessary suffering into the world.
If you want to change the economic outcome in your world you'll have to take into account human nature. So, you'll want to find for your world a living breathing example of the outcome you want.
My example is the apocryphal story of a sushi restaurant in New Zealand.
One day, after lots of preparation and hard work, a couple opened a sushi
restaurant in Aukland. Word got around that they were great. After a
few months they did so much business they could meet all their
financial goals for the week by Wednesday. So, they'd take the rest of
the week off. Still, their success grew. Eventually they did enough
business in a few years they could retire. And they did. They closed
down the restaurant, bought a nice bungalow on the beach and happily
drank beers and watched rugby until the end of their days.
This is what you want. Make people want just enough to make themselves and their immediate loved ones happy and comfortable.
How?
Culture sculpting. Movies, stories, songs, etc...
Make egregious luxuries and gratuitous wealth just in bad taste and bad tasting. "Why would I want a new car? My 10 year old honda works just fine."
Make inheritance seem ugly and insulting. "Why would I give my children a lot of money? If they can't earn it themselves they'll waste it." (Jackie Chan has basically said this) This is the real lynch pin to reducing income inequality. If you don't have static and sterile cesspools of wealth not creating value, but only creating more money then it's free to move around and do actual work.
Sure you'll get people addicted to creating businesses and wealth because you haven't gotten rid of the inherent benefits. Still, you'll severely undercut rent-seeking (which is what you're trying to get rid of) because IMHO rent seeking is a greed fueling behavior.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Having an ample supply of "people addicted to creating businesses" is a good thing for anybody who needs a job and doesn't have the necessary skills to create a business of their own.
$endgroup$
– krb
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've never heard about rent-seeking before this. I read the Wikipedia article now and... I kinda find it hard to draw a line between "normal rent" and "rent-seeking". If I own a plot of land that I'm not using myself, and I'm letting people leave their cars there for a fee (aka a paid parking lot), is this really any different from the "chain across the river" example that was mentioned in the Wikipedia article?
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
You're trying to "fix" things from the top down. That's just like communism, fascism, etc... it doesn't work. We have the ghosts of a hundred million people telling us it doesn't work.
People are people and will do people things no matter the threat screamed at them or treat dangled in front of them. Going against human nature only succeeds in bringing unnecessary suffering into the world.
If you want to change the economic outcome in your world you'll have to take into account human nature. So, you'll want to find for your world a living breathing example of the outcome you want.
My example is the apocryphal story of a sushi restaurant in New Zealand.
One day, after lots of preparation and hard work, a couple opened a sushi
restaurant in Aukland. Word got around that they were great. After a
few months they did so much business they could meet all their
financial goals for the week by Wednesday. So, they'd take the rest of
the week off. Still, their success grew. Eventually they did enough
business in a few years they could retire. And they did. They closed
down the restaurant, bought a nice bungalow on the beach and happily
drank beers and watched rugby until the end of their days.
This is what you want. Make people want just enough to make themselves and their immediate loved ones happy and comfortable.
How?
Culture sculpting. Movies, stories, songs, etc...
Make egregious luxuries and gratuitous wealth just in bad taste and bad tasting. "Why would I want a new car? My 10 year old honda works just fine."
Make inheritance seem ugly and insulting. "Why would I give my children a lot of money? If they can't earn it themselves they'll waste it." (Jackie Chan has basically said this) This is the real lynch pin to reducing income inequality. If you don't have static and sterile cesspools of wealth not creating value, but only creating more money then it's free to move around and do actual work.
Sure you'll get people addicted to creating businesses and wealth because you haven't gotten rid of the inherent benefits. Still, you'll severely undercut rent-seeking (which is what you're trying to get rid of) because IMHO rent seeking is a greed fueling behavior.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp
$endgroup$
You're trying to "fix" things from the top down. That's just like communism, fascism, etc... it doesn't work. We have the ghosts of a hundred million people telling us it doesn't work.
People are people and will do people things no matter the threat screamed at them or treat dangled in front of them. Going against human nature only succeeds in bringing unnecessary suffering into the world.
If you want to change the economic outcome in your world you'll have to take into account human nature. So, you'll want to find for your world a living breathing example of the outcome you want.
My example is the apocryphal story of a sushi restaurant in New Zealand.
One day, after lots of preparation and hard work, a couple opened a sushi
restaurant in Aukland. Word got around that they were great. After a
few months they did so much business they could meet all their
financial goals for the week by Wednesday. So, they'd take the rest of
the week off. Still, their success grew. Eventually they did enough
business in a few years they could retire. And they did. They closed
down the restaurant, bought a nice bungalow on the beach and happily
drank beers and watched rugby until the end of their days.
This is what you want. Make people want just enough to make themselves and their immediate loved ones happy and comfortable.
How?
Culture sculpting. Movies, stories, songs, etc...
Make egregious luxuries and gratuitous wealth just in bad taste and bad tasting. "Why would I want a new car? My 10 year old honda works just fine."
Make inheritance seem ugly and insulting. "Why would I give my children a lot of money? If they can't earn it themselves they'll waste it." (Jackie Chan has basically said this) This is the real lynch pin to reducing income inequality. If you don't have static and sterile cesspools of wealth not creating value, but only creating more money then it's free to move around and do actual work.
Sure you'll get people addicted to creating businesses and wealth because you haven't gotten rid of the inherent benefits. Still, you'll severely undercut rent-seeking (which is what you're trying to get rid of) because IMHO rent seeking is a greed fueling behavior.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp
answered 5 hours ago
kleer001kleer001
6469 bronze badges
6469 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Having an ample supply of "people addicted to creating businesses" is a good thing for anybody who needs a job and doesn't have the necessary skills to create a business of their own.
$endgroup$
– krb
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've never heard about rent-seeking before this. I read the Wikipedia article now and... I kinda find it hard to draw a line between "normal rent" and "rent-seeking". If I own a plot of land that I'm not using myself, and I'm letting people leave their cars there for a fee (aka a paid parking lot), is this really any different from the "chain across the river" example that was mentioned in the Wikipedia article?
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Having an ample supply of "people addicted to creating businesses" is a good thing for anybody who needs a job and doesn't have the necessary skills to create a business of their own.
$endgroup$
– krb
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've never heard about rent-seeking before this. I read the Wikipedia article now and... I kinda find it hard to draw a line between "normal rent" and "rent-seeking". If I own a plot of land that I'm not using myself, and I'm letting people leave their cars there for a fee (aka a paid parking lot), is this really any different from the "chain across the river" example that was mentioned in the Wikipedia article?
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Having an ample supply of "people addicted to creating businesses" is a good thing for anybody who needs a job and doesn't have the necessary skills to create a business of their own.
$endgroup$
– krb
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Having an ample supply of "people addicted to creating businesses" is a good thing for anybody who needs a job and doesn't have the necessary skills to create a business of their own.
$endgroup$
– krb
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've never heard about rent-seeking before this. I read the Wikipedia article now and... I kinda find it hard to draw a line between "normal rent" and "rent-seeking". If I own a plot of land that I'm not using myself, and I'm letting people leave their cars there for a fee (aka a paid parking lot), is this really any different from the "chain across the river" example that was mentioned in the Wikipedia article?
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've never heard about rent-seeking before this. I read the Wikipedia article now and... I kinda find it hard to draw a line between "normal rent" and "rent-seeking". If I own a plot of land that I'm not using myself, and I'm letting people leave their cars there for a fee (aka a paid parking lot), is this really any different from the "chain across the river" example that was mentioned in the Wikipedia article?
$endgroup$
– Vilx-
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Let's try working through this. By the way, this was codified in Deuteronomy by Moses and supposedly practiced by pre-monarchy Israel in antiquity, but the specifics on how this worked out aren't well recorded.
For small businesses, loans could still be made, but would have to be done without interest. Seed money can come from personal savings and benefactors.
Mid sized businesses can also exist. The most primitive definitions of non-slave labor are like contracting: payment per some unit of measure - day of work, goods delivered, goods manufactured. To keep it rent free, the trailings would be available for the poor and strangers to pick over. This created a legal problem as suggested in the book of Ruth - criminals would hide among the fields to ambush and abuse people trying to collect the leftovers.
As to industry - who owns the winepress I set up? It was not, in fact, uncommon in antiquity for someone to build and abandon (or gift to the community) a small piece of public infrastructure. You can probably see, however, that this will have problems scaling up from the simple well or olive press. It's not a violation of the no rent rule, possibly, for a family to personally operate their own press and insist people allow them to perform the labor for a fee.
How would trade work? If you entrust your goods to a trader to take across the continent for trade, when are those goods considered abandoned or rent? I would guess, as with infrastructure, it slips into the public good as soon as you give up working it... Therefore, families would have to cart their own goods to market.
Large industry would be possible. It could take at least two forms: large trustworthy families (think the Medicis) actively managing (and keeping control of) a widespread operation. Or, one or more investors could entrust operation of a large facility or network to a group of managers, who technically now own the piece of tooling or goods (thinking ocean-going trade ships or light factories), and can reassign (on their retirement) the goods and property to someone else. This might be done by a large wealthy family because they want to accomplish some goal : open a trade route, create a sub-assembly supplier. Auto companies have actually engaged in this in near history.
Intellectual property would need to be considered, or not exist. Without government protection of the ownership ideas you have an environment of tightly guarded trade secrets that masters regularly take with them to the grave. Perhaps government could secure an inventors ownership of an idea for some period or life (as is currently done), but require the inventors to be an active participant in the development to market and operation of the idea in order to keep the idea from slipping into the public domain.
Hotels might not exist. The primitive options for travelers were an expectation that every towns' citizens either opened up their homes for visitors (see the last chapters of Judges), or public housing was provided. Such guest houses even provided meals without charge, but you might decide they could charge for food and entertainment.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Let's try working through this. By the way, this was codified in Deuteronomy by Moses and supposedly practiced by pre-monarchy Israel in antiquity, but the specifics on how this worked out aren't well recorded.
For small businesses, loans could still be made, but would have to be done without interest. Seed money can come from personal savings and benefactors.
Mid sized businesses can also exist. The most primitive definitions of non-slave labor are like contracting: payment per some unit of measure - day of work, goods delivered, goods manufactured. To keep it rent free, the trailings would be available for the poor and strangers to pick over. This created a legal problem as suggested in the book of Ruth - criminals would hide among the fields to ambush and abuse people trying to collect the leftovers.
As to industry - who owns the winepress I set up? It was not, in fact, uncommon in antiquity for someone to build and abandon (or gift to the community) a small piece of public infrastructure. You can probably see, however, that this will have problems scaling up from the simple well or olive press. It's not a violation of the no rent rule, possibly, for a family to personally operate their own press and insist people allow them to perform the labor for a fee.
How would trade work? If you entrust your goods to a trader to take across the continent for trade, when are those goods considered abandoned or rent? I would guess, as with infrastructure, it slips into the public good as soon as you give up working it... Therefore, families would have to cart their own goods to market.
Large industry would be possible. It could take at least two forms: large trustworthy families (think the Medicis) actively managing (and keeping control of) a widespread operation. Or, one or more investors could entrust operation of a large facility or network to a group of managers, who technically now own the piece of tooling or goods (thinking ocean-going trade ships or light factories), and can reassign (on their retirement) the goods and property to someone else. This might be done by a large wealthy family because they want to accomplish some goal : open a trade route, create a sub-assembly supplier. Auto companies have actually engaged in this in near history.
Intellectual property would need to be considered, or not exist. Without government protection of the ownership ideas you have an environment of tightly guarded trade secrets that masters regularly take with them to the grave. Perhaps government could secure an inventors ownership of an idea for some period or life (as is currently done), but require the inventors to be an active participant in the development to market and operation of the idea in order to keep the idea from slipping into the public domain.
Hotels might not exist. The primitive options for travelers were an expectation that every towns' citizens either opened up their homes for visitors (see the last chapters of Judges), or public housing was provided. Such guest houses even provided meals without charge, but you might decide they could charge for food and entertainment.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Let's try working through this. By the way, this was codified in Deuteronomy by Moses and supposedly practiced by pre-monarchy Israel in antiquity, but the specifics on how this worked out aren't well recorded.
For small businesses, loans could still be made, but would have to be done without interest. Seed money can come from personal savings and benefactors.
Mid sized businesses can also exist. The most primitive definitions of non-slave labor are like contracting: payment per some unit of measure - day of work, goods delivered, goods manufactured. To keep it rent free, the trailings would be available for the poor and strangers to pick over. This created a legal problem as suggested in the book of Ruth - criminals would hide among the fields to ambush and abuse people trying to collect the leftovers.
As to industry - who owns the winepress I set up? It was not, in fact, uncommon in antiquity for someone to build and abandon (or gift to the community) a small piece of public infrastructure. You can probably see, however, that this will have problems scaling up from the simple well or olive press. It's not a violation of the no rent rule, possibly, for a family to personally operate their own press and insist people allow them to perform the labor for a fee.
How would trade work? If you entrust your goods to a trader to take across the continent for trade, when are those goods considered abandoned or rent? I would guess, as with infrastructure, it slips into the public good as soon as you give up working it... Therefore, families would have to cart their own goods to market.
Large industry would be possible. It could take at least two forms: large trustworthy families (think the Medicis) actively managing (and keeping control of) a widespread operation. Or, one or more investors could entrust operation of a large facility or network to a group of managers, who technically now own the piece of tooling or goods (thinking ocean-going trade ships or light factories), and can reassign (on their retirement) the goods and property to someone else. This might be done by a large wealthy family because they want to accomplish some goal : open a trade route, create a sub-assembly supplier. Auto companies have actually engaged in this in near history.
Intellectual property would need to be considered, or not exist. Without government protection of the ownership ideas you have an environment of tightly guarded trade secrets that masters regularly take with them to the grave. Perhaps government could secure an inventors ownership of an idea for some period or life (as is currently done), but require the inventors to be an active participant in the development to market and operation of the idea in order to keep the idea from slipping into the public domain.
Hotels might not exist. The primitive options for travelers were an expectation that every towns' citizens either opened up their homes for visitors (see the last chapters of Judges), or public housing was provided. Such guest houses even provided meals without charge, but you might decide they could charge for food and entertainment.
$endgroup$
Let's try working through this. By the way, this was codified in Deuteronomy by Moses and supposedly practiced by pre-monarchy Israel in antiquity, but the specifics on how this worked out aren't well recorded.
For small businesses, loans could still be made, but would have to be done without interest. Seed money can come from personal savings and benefactors.
Mid sized businesses can also exist. The most primitive definitions of non-slave labor are like contracting: payment per some unit of measure - day of work, goods delivered, goods manufactured. To keep it rent free, the trailings would be available for the poor and strangers to pick over. This created a legal problem as suggested in the book of Ruth - criminals would hide among the fields to ambush and abuse people trying to collect the leftovers.
As to industry - who owns the winepress I set up? It was not, in fact, uncommon in antiquity for someone to build and abandon (or gift to the community) a small piece of public infrastructure. You can probably see, however, that this will have problems scaling up from the simple well or olive press. It's not a violation of the no rent rule, possibly, for a family to personally operate their own press and insist people allow them to perform the labor for a fee.
How would trade work? If you entrust your goods to a trader to take across the continent for trade, when are those goods considered abandoned or rent? I would guess, as with infrastructure, it slips into the public good as soon as you give up working it... Therefore, families would have to cart their own goods to market.
Large industry would be possible. It could take at least two forms: large trustworthy families (think the Medicis) actively managing (and keeping control of) a widespread operation. Or, one or more investors could entrust operation of a large facility or network to a group of managers, who technically now own the piece of tooling or goods (thinking ocean-going trade ships or light factories), and can reassign (on their retirement) the goods and property to someone else. This might be done by a large wealthy family because they want to accomplish some goal : open a trade route, create a sub-assembly supplier. Auto companies have actually engaged in this in near history.
Intellectual property would need to be considered, or not exist. Without government protection of the ownership ideas you have an environment of tightly guarded trade secrets that masters regularly take with them to the grave. Perhaps government could secure an inventors ownership of an idea for some period or life (as is currently done), but require the inventors to be an active participant in the development to market and operation of the idea in order to keep the idea from slipping into the public domain.
Hotels might not exist. The primitive options for travelers were an expectation that every towns' citizens either opened up their homes for visitors (see the last chapters of Judges), or public housing was provided. Such guest houses even provided meals without charge, but you might decide they could charge for food and entertainment.
edited 44 mins ago
answered 59 mins ago
James McLellanJames McLellan
7,0691 gold badge8 silver badges37 bronze badges
7,0691 gold badge8 silver badges37 bronze badges
add a comment
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add a comment
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$begingroup$
Well, just try to imagine a world in which rental apartments (or any type of housing) do not exist.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
7 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
I think you'd get more in-depth responses if you asked this over on economics.stackexchange.com. But my guess is it would have little effect on the status quo. The market model may have somewhat of a different structure to it, but (assuming we're sticking to capitalism) supply and demand would still reign supreme i.e. there would still be a massive disproportion between rich and poor.
$endgroup$
– b1nary.atr0phy
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Could you expand somewhat on what you mean by words like better and successful? The arguments that favor less-restricted capitalism aren't about working vs. total failure, but relative efficiencies. What is described here seems like a deflated version of the current capitalist system, or a hybridized system of capitalist market organization and price controls. (For reference: systems like that have existed, including in the U.S., within the last half-century or so).
$endgroup$
– Upper_Case
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If you're allowed to charge rent equal to the sum of your purchase price, how does this system prevent you from just selling the property when you run out, and getting a new one? e.g. I spend $1 million on an apartment building, I charge my tenants a total of a million in rent over however many years, I sell it and buy a new one... now I have a million in collectable rent on the new building.
$endgroup$
– Cadence
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
There are multiple misconceptions about economics that form the basis of your question, which make it hard to give a good answer. The two most glaring ones are that you think "value" is objective (it isn't), and that the beneficiaries of income inequality are static (e.g. "the rich" might get richer over time, but "the rich" is a group whose membership changes frequently). I may expand this into an answer later.
$endgroup$
– Joe
5 hours ago