What organs or modifications would be needed for a life biological creature not to require sleep?What modifications would be needed to allow humans to survive in space with limited protective gear?What modifications are needed for my sea creature to able to hold its breath for weeks?How does biochemistry relate to nutrients needed for life?What would an efficient swimming creature in magma be like?What muscular changes would a different hand structure require and what would be the benefits?Biological mechanism for complex life to operate in high temperaturesWhat would be a more efficient reservoir for biological hydraulics?What would a biological creature need in order to see into the future?
Do ibuprofen or paracetamol cause hearing loss?
How do email clients "send later" without storing a password?
Parallel resistance in electric circuits
Why does the speed of sound decrease at high altitudes although the air density decreases?
Mutable named tuple with default value and conditional rounding support
How to publish superseding results without creating enemies
Is low emotional intelligence associated with right-wing and prejudiced attitudes?
How major are these paintwork & rust problems?
Why don't Wizards use wrist straps to protect against disarming charms?
Why do sellers care about down payments?
Thematic, genred concepts in Ancient Greek?
Is "you will become a subject matter expert" code for "you'll be working on your own 100% of the time"?
Can you add polynomial terms to multiple linear regression?
Can I conceal an antihero's insanity - and should I?
How can I discourage sharing internal API keys within a company?
Why is this weapon searching for a new owner?
What jurisdiction do Scottish courts have over the Westminster parliament?
Where to disclose a zero day vulnerability
What is my breathable atmosphere composed of?
Bash, import output from command as command
Stucturing information on this trade show banner
A shy person in a queue
Is the Dodge action perceptible to other characters?
How does a simple logistic regression model achieve a 92% classification accuracy on MNIST?
What organs or modifications would be needed for a life biological creature not to require sleep?
What modifications would be needed to allow humans to survive in space with limited protective gear?What modifications are needed for my sea creature to able to hold its breath for weeks?How does biochemistry relate to nutrients needed for life?What would an efficient swimming creature in magma be like?What muscular changes would a different hand structure require and what would be the benefits?Biological mechanism for complex life to operate in high temperaturesWhat would be a more efficient reservoir for biological hydraulics?What would a biological creature need in order to see into the future?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
I mean literally not sleeping for the rest of their life, not like giraffes that only require short rests, or dolphins that can sleep with half of their brain at a time, or like otters and sharks that sleep walk.
An external solution like drinking caffeine or using other drugs is out of the question.
I don't mind, however, if one of the creature's organs can produce caffeine or another chemical that allows the creature to never sleep, but please elaborate on how it would work instead of merely hand-waving it.
(I use science fiction tag because it may not possible for science-based answer, but much appreciate if it really possible in real science)
what organs need or developed for a life biological creature to never need to sleep?
biology creature-design science-fiction xenobiology
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
I mean literally not sleeping for the rest of their life, not like giraffes that only require short rests, or dolphins that can sleep with half of their brain at a time, or like otters and sharks that sleep walk.
An external solution like drinking caffeine or using other drugs is out of the question.
I don't mind, however, if one of the creature's organs can produce caffeine or another chemical that allows the creature to never sleep, but please elaborate on how it would work instead of merely hand-waving it.
(I use science fiction tag because it may not possible for science-based answer, but much appreciate if it really possible in real science)
what organs need or developed for a life biological creature to never need to sleep?
biology creature-design science-fiction xenobiology
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Its not about organs or chemicals, but about radically overhauling a body plan that requires regular sleep or risks breaking down. You can't get there from here; you'll need to design some new things that never needed sleep in the first place.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
11 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The brains of vertebrates need sleep, or else they malfunction with very serious effects. We don't know why exactly the brains of vertebrates need sleep; all we know is that they do, and that nothing we tried can replace sleep.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
caffeine can make you never need sleep, in fact trying would be lethal.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
I mean literally not sleeping for the rest of their life, not like giraffes that only require short rests, or dolphins that can sleep with half of their brain at a time, or like otters and sharks that sleep walk.
An external solution like drinking caffeine or using other drugs is out of the question.
I don't mind, however, if one of the creature's organs can produce caffeine or another chemical that allows the creature to never sleep, but please elaborate on how it would work instead of merely hand-waving it.
(I use science fiction tag because it may not possible for science-based answer, but much appreciate if it really possible in real science)
what organs need or developed for a life biological creature to never need to sleep?
biology creature-design science-fiction xenobiology
$endgroup$
I mean literally not sleeping for the rest of their life, not like giraffes that only require short rests, or dolphins that can sleep with half of their brain at a time, or like otters and sharks that sleep walk.
An external solution like drinking caffeine or using other drugs is out of the question.
I don't mind, however, if one of the creature's organs can produce caffeine or another chemical that allows the creature to never sleep, but please elaborate on how it would work instead of merely hand-waving it.
(I use science fiction tag because it may not possible for science-based answer, but much appreciate if it really possible in real science)
what organs need or developed for a life biological creature to never need to sleep?
biology creature-design science-fiction xenobiology
biology creature-design science-fiction xenobiology
edited 1 hour ago
Li Jun
asked 11 hours ago
Li JunLi Jun
1,3097 silver badges27 bronze badges
1,3097 silver badges27 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Its not about organs or chemicals, but about radically overhauling a body plan that requires regular sleep or risks breaking down. You can't get there from here; you'll need to design some new things that never needed sleep in the first place.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
11 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The brains of vertebrates need sleep, or else they malfunction with very serious effects. We don't know why exactly the brains of vertebrates need sleep; all we know is that they do, and that nothing we tried can replace sleep.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
caffeine can make you never need sleep, in fact trying would be lethal.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
add a comment
|
1
$begingroup$
Its not about organs or chemicals, but about radically overhauling a body plan that requires regular sleep or risks breaking down. You can't get there from here; you'll need to design some new things that never needed sleep in the first place.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
11 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The brains of vertebrates need sleep, or else they malfunction with very serious effects. We don't know why exactly the brains of vertebrates need sleep; all we know is that they do, and that nothing we tried can replace sleep.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
caffeine can make you never need sleep, in fact trying would be lethal.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Its not about organs or chemicals, but about radically overhauling a body plan that requires regular sleep or risks breaking down. You can't get there from here; you'll need to design some new things that never needed sleep in the first place.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
Its not about organs or chemicals, but about radically overhauling a body plan that requires regular sleep or risks breaking down. You can't get there from here; you'll need to design some new things that never needed sleep in the first place.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
11 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
The brains of vertebrates need sleep, or else they malfunction with very serious effects. We don't know why exactly the brains of vertebrates need sleep; all we know is that they do, and that nothing we tried can replace sleep.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
The brains of vertebrates need sleep, or else they malfunction with very serious effects. We don't know why exactly the brains of vertebrates need sleep; all we know is that they do, and that nothing we tried can replace sleep.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
caffeine can make you never need sleep, in fact trying would be lethal.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
caffeine can make you never need sleep, in fact trying would be lethal.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
add a comment
|
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Just use an alien.
If it has a large brain you can't get around sleep, every organism we know of with a brain that is enlarged (complex at all) sleeps. there is just no escaping it. As long as you use earth life you have no options. But we don't know why we need it, which leaves you an out.
If your lifeform evolved on a different planet they may not need sleep, you can literally just say it has drastically different neurochemistry/biochemistry and does not need sleep and no one can argue since we don't know why earth life needs it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
yeah but thats to handwavy, i need explanation on why such different neurochemistry/biochemistry make it not need sleep.
$endgroup$
– Li Jun
10 hours ago
7
$begingroup$
@LiJun sorry there just isn't an answer, we really don't know why brains need sleep, there are a lot of ideas, but nothing solid. We don't even know everything the brain does while asleep. We know they need it but not why. Any answer you give will be by definition handwavy.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiJun : Handwavy (to one degree or another) is probably the best you can get on this one unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
9 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Polycephaly is a medical condition, in which an animal has multiple heads. This is a special type of conjoined twin. 2 is the most common form, but there is at least 1 case of 3 heads documented (a turtle).
In many cases, each head is capable of sleeping independently of the other, allowing your Biological Creature to function without turpor.
In some cases, each head controls a different part of the body (e.g. Abby and Bittany Hensel, born 1990, each control one hand and one leg. Interestingly, if one of them develops stomach ache, the other twin experiences the sensation instead).
In other cases, both heads are able to control all-or-most of the body - however, when they disagree on an action, this can cause the body to "lock up" and paralyse.
What you require is a situation where both heads can control the whole body, and sleep independently.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
You don't need new organs you just need a few tweaks to the way the brain operates & Dolphins have already solved this one for you, obviously they sink if they stop swimming & if they sink they drown so they can't sleep, well they do, but they sleep one hemisphere of their brain at a time.
There's some evidence that dolphins can display slightly different personalities depending on which half (or none) of their brain is sleeping, which is interesting but perhaps not relevant :)
Ah! but on a re-read I see you don't want that option.
Well there's also a commercially available drug in the US that stops you needing any sleep, there was a documentary I saw on it a few years ago.
I can't remember what either that drug or the documentary was called but you might find this article helpful.
Sleep is largely a function of biochemical process in the brain so simply manipulating the genes to adjust the Adenosine receptors to prevent uptake of this neurotransmitter or reduce or else prevent production of it might do the trick.
A downside is that sleep is an integral part of transferring short term memory to long term memory & as far as we know no organism that uses long term memory can do without it indefinitely.
I don't know 'why' the brain needs sleep to transfer short term memory to long term but as sleep is a such a vulnerable state to be in there must be strong evolutionary pressure against any alternative to the dolphins for it not to already have appeared.
Long & the short is the dolphin answer seems the best option to get the 'appearance' of what you ask for despite the fact you remove that option in your question.
But there's no reason to stick to the two hemisphere plan of the the Dolphins (presumably shared by whales).
You could split the brain into four or more with overlapping sleep patterns such that each part (eventually) shares sleep time with each other part, you can use that to plausibly say long term memory is duplicated to all parts of the brain during this time to avoid any long term variation in memory & personality during different parts of their sleep pattern.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
the issue is dolphins do go into torpor and for much longer than a mammal of the same sizes sleeps.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : Well yes, in human terms one or other half of their brain is asleep for up to 16 hours a day & both sides are awake at the same time for only 8 hours but a mammal can operate with only one hemisphere (the other having been surgically excised) just as well as if it had both halves, after a period of adjustment following the loss.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Pelinore "Just as well" is patently wrong. "can get by" is closer to the truth, and that's only true with humans who have a huge highly plastic brain plus large external support systems. dolphins with one side sleeping are almost completely unreactive, with only the bare minimum of functions happening. You are also wrong about how long a dolphin sleeps for, each half of the brain sleeps for about 4 hours, for around 8 hours of total torpor..
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : thanks for the 4 hours, as I said 'in human terms' because I didn't know what the dolphins was :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : I think it's safe to assume the OP's protagonists are going to 'have a huge highly plastic brain' :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
$begingroup$
Brain with three hemispheres
The state in dolphins and some birds that could keep some functions while sleeping is achieved by working with only one of the hemispheres of their brains while in "sleep state" the other part is resting.
If you add an extra hemisphere that would support the "awake" part with their normal functions you could cycle between them to achieve a "non-sleep state" during most part of the life of the creature that you are designing.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
This would be a Trientsphere by definition, rather than a hemisphere. But are you suggesting that two trientspheres would be active at any one given time, with each trientsphere taking a third of the day to sleep, or that the new component would always be active, supporting the active bit? Because then the question of "when does the new lobe sleep?" arises.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
While multi-brain and multi-hemisphere answers have been posed, they all result in some loose of function while one part of the cognitive system is down. This seems against what the OP is looking for since he does not want dolphin style torpor.
However, computer scientists have already devised a number of systems called RAID controllers to be used by servers to replicate data across multiple hard drives in case of a disk failure and to allow for scheduled maintenance without downtime. When you consider sleep as analogous to server maintenance, it becomes obvious that a brain could use a similar system to overcome the need for sleep with a somewhat larger brain (or rather 2 identical brains). By replicating functionality, when one brain is ready to sleep, it wakes up the other brain duplicate it's memories of the day to it, and then goes to sleep. In this fashion, you would not notice a performance drop-off or change in personality because both brains are doing the same things with the same hardware and the same information, just at different times of day.
As jdunlop points out in the comments below, there are two possible concerns here: One being that sleep is poorly understood, and the other being that consciousness is poorly understood.
As far as those concerns go, the nature of sleep is irrelevant. We do not need to understand much about how sleep works to understand that it is an "offline process" where the brain is doing something other than what it does while you are awake. Whether it is a time to sort memories, replenish neurotransmitters, repair damage, etc. is inconsequential. As long as it is an isolated enough system to do what the brain is designed to do while sleeping, it can do that while the second brain takes over.
As for how consciousness goes, this is a more existential question than anything. To the outside observer, two brains attached to the same body with all the same capabilities, memories, skills, endocrine system, etc. would be indistinguishably the same person. If you ask either brain the same question, they will generally come to the same answer as long as they are syncing up their memories every switch over, and neither of them is significantly damaged.
From the inside, you would technically only "be you" half of the time, but you would always receive all of the memories and experiences as the other you. When "you" are in control, you really would not be able to tell the difference of when were awake, and when you remember being awake. You might experience something like deja vu twice a day for those moments when both minds are trading off, but the human mind is full of filters designed to merge multiple inputs into a single stream of consciousness; so, a species designed to function this way would likely have a mechanism for making the switch over feel seamless the same way we only see one image when we look at something with two eyes.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I think this is specious answer; as detailed in other answers, we don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain, so there's no guarantee that having a second brain would address the issue. In addition, we don't know how consciousness works, so the facile approach of "just runconsciousness.exe
on a second brain" is also lacking any sort of support of the sort the OP asked for.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@jdunlop "We don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain" sounds more like a frame challenge than a critique of this particular answer since it applies to all previous answers as well. You may consider posting a frame challenge answer outlining evidence that the process of sleep is not well enough understood to answer the question as asked.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
[Fiction]
Sleep is a natural stress reliever. In humans, and even in animals, you can expect a lack of sleep to lead to a situation of Hypertension. So, any sentient animal species that doesn't sleep at all has to be really stressed, which means its lifespan will be short lived.
Next, not sleeping is akin to an extreme case of insomnia which is biologically evolved in your case.
Since insomnia is a common occurence in humans, you can look into conditions that can trigger it/ break the regular sleep cycle, and factors that can keep it broken.
For example: In below, the bodily chemicals/ hormones work in tandem to affect the regular sleep in humans:
Exposure to light stimulates a nerve pathway from the retina in the eye to an area in the brain called the hypothalamus. There, a special center called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) initiates signals to other parts of the brain that control hormones, body temperature and other functions that play a role in making us feel sleepy or wide awake.
Melatonin is a natural hormone made by your body's pineal (pih-knee-uhl) gland. This is a pea-sized gland located just above the middle of the brain. During the day the pineal is inactive. When the sun goes down and darkness occurs, the pineal is "turned on" by the SCN and begins to actively produce melatonin, which is released into the blood. Usually, this occurs around 9 pm. As a result, melatonin levels in the blood rise sharply and you begin to feel less alert.
So, all you need to do is establish interference in a similar system/ remove the hormone, and your fictional species can go sleepless.
Next, give this species a short life, and an early reproductive age, where the stress they have on themselves doesn't affect their reproductive abilities by much yet.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Sleep is mostly required for highly intelligent lifeforms or lifeforms with complex memory functions as far as I know (Bacterias don't sleep). This is different from physical rest, which is for conserving energy. As such a life form with two independent brains that take turns, would probably not need to sleep, since each brain sleeps half the time in turn, despite the creature itself being awake. Both brains need to have identical functions, the only problem being sharing/syncing of memories between the two. Otherwise you will end up with a race with dissociative personality disorder. As for chemicals to prevent sleeping, that's just overdrafting, the brain will eventually shutdown , maybe even permanently.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "579"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/"u003ecc by-sa 4.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f155979%2fwhat-organs-or-modifications-would-be-needed-for-a-life-biological-creature-not%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Just use an alien.
If it has a large brain you can't get around sleep, every organism we know of with a brain that is enlarged (complex at all) sleeps. there is just no escaping it. As long as you use earth life you have no options. But we don't know why we need it, which leaves you an out.
If your lifeform evolved on a different planet they may not need sleep, you can literally just say it has drastically different neurochemistry/biochemistry and does not need sleep and no one can argue since we don't know why earth life needs it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
yeah but thats to handwavy, i need explanation on why such different neurochemistry/biochemistry make it not need sleep.
$endgroup$
– Li Jun
10 hours ago
7
$begingroup$
@LiJun sorry there just isn't an answer, we really don't know why brains need sleep, there are a lot of ideas, but nothing solid. We don't even know everything the brain does while asleep. We know they need it but not why. Any answer you give will be by definition handwavy.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiJun : Handwavy (to one degree or another) is probably the best you can get on this one unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
9 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Just use an alien.
If it has a large brain you can't get around sleep, every organism we know of with a brain that is enlarged (complex at all) sleeps. there is just no escaping it. As long as you use earth life you have no options. But we don't know why we need it, which leaves you an out.
If your lifeform evolved on a different planet they may not need sleep, you can literally just say it has drastically different neurochemistry/biochemistry and does not need sleep and no one can argue since we don't know why earth life needs it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
yeah but thats to handwavy, i need explanation on why such different neurochemistry/biochemistry make it not need sleep.
$endgroup$
– Li Jun
10 hours ago
7
$begingroup$
@LiJun sorry there just isn't an answer, we really don't know why brains need sleep, there are a lot of ideas, but nothing solid. We don't even know everything the brain does while asleep. We know they need it but not why. Any answer you give will be by definition handwavy.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiJun : Handwavy (to one degree or another) is probably the best you can get on this one unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
9 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Just use an alien.
If it has a large brain you can't get around sleep, every organism we know of with a brain that is enlarged (complex at all) sleeps. there is just no escaping it. As long as you use earth life you have no options. But we don't know why we need it, which leaves you an out.
If your lifeform evolved on a different planet they may not need sleep, you can literally just say it has drastically different neurochemistry/biochemistry and does not need sleep and no one can argue since we don't know why earth life needs it.
$endgroup$
Just use an alien.
If it has a large brain you can't get around sleep, every organism we know of with a brain that is enlarged (complex at all) sleeps. there is just no escaping it. As long as you use earth life you have no options. But we don't know why we need it, which leaves you an out.
If your lifeform evolved on a different planet they may not need sleep, you can literally just say it has drastically different neurochemistry/biochemistry and does not need sleep and no one can argue since we don't know why earth life needs it.
answered 10 hours ago
JohnJohn
42.8k11 gold badges61 silver badges144 bronze badges
42.8k11 gold badges61 silver badges144 bronze badges
$begingroup$
yeah but thats to handwavy, i need explanation on why such different neurochemistry/biochemistry make it not need sleep.
$endgroup$
– Li Jun
10 hours ago
7
$begingroup$
@LiJun sorry there just isn't an answer, we really don't know why brains need sleep, there are a lot of ideas, but nothing solid. We don't even know everything the brain does while asleep. We know they need it but not why. Any answer you give will be by definition handwavy.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiJun : Handwavy (to one degree or another) is probably the best you can get on this one unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
9 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
yeah but thats to handwavy, i need explanation on why such different neurochemistry/biochemistry make it not need sleep.
$endgroup$
– Li Jun
10 hours ago
7
$begingroup$
@LiJun sorry there just isn't an answer, we really don't know why brains need sleep, there are a lot of ideas, but nothing solid. We don't even know everything the brain does while asleep. We know they need it but not why. Any answer you give will be by definition handwavy.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiJun : Handwavy (to one degree or another) is probably the best you can get on this one unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
yeah but thats to handwavy, i need explanation on why such different neurochemistry/biochemistry make it not need sleep.
$endgroup$
– Li Jun
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
yeah but thats to handwavy, i need explanation on why such different neurochemistry/biochemistry make it not need sleep.
$endgroup$
– Li Jun
10 hours ago
7
7
$begingroup$
@LiJun sorry there just isn't an answer, we really don't know why brains need sleep, there are a lot of ideas, but nothing solid. We don't even know everything the brain does while asleep. We know they need it but not why. Any answer you give will be by definition handwavy.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@LiJun sorry there just isn't an answer, we really don't know why brains need sleep, there are a lot of ideas, but nothing solid. We don't even know everything the brain does while asleep. We know they need it but not why. Any answer you give will be by definition handwavy.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@LiJun : Handwavy (to one degree or another) is probably the best you can get on this one unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@LiJun : Handwavy (to one degree or another) is probably the best you can get on this one unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
9 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Polycephaly is a medical condition, in which an animal has multiple heads. This is a special type of conjoined twin. 2 is the most common form, but there is at least 1 case of 3 heads documented (a turtle).
In many cases, each head is capable of sleeping independently of the other, allowing your Biological Creature to function without turpor.
In some cases, each head controls a different part of the body (e.g. Abby and Bittany Hensel, born 1990, each control one hand and one leg. Interestingly, if one of them develops stomach ache, the other twin experiences the sensation instead).
In other cases, both heads are able to control all-or-most of the body - however, when they disagree on an action, this can cause the body to "lock up" and paralyse.
What you require is a situation where both heads can control the whole body, and sleep independently.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Polycephaly is a medical condition, in which an animal has multiple heads. This is a special type of conjoined twin. 2 is the most common form, but there is at least 1 case of 3 heads documented (a turtle).
In many cases, each head is capable of sleeping independently of the other, allowing your Biological Creature to function without turpor.
In some cases, each head controls a different part of the body (e.g. Abby and Bittany Hensel, born 1990, each control one hand and one leg. Interestingly, if one of them develops stomach ache, the other twin experiences the sensation instead).
In other cases, both heads are able to control all-or-most of the body - however, when they disagree on an action, this can cause the body to "lock up" and paralyse.
What you require is a situation where both heads can control the whole body, and sleep independently.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Polycephaly is a medical condition, in which an animal has multiple heads. This is a special type of conjoined twin. 2 is the most common form, but there is at least 1 case of 3 heads documented (a turtle).
In many cases, each head is capable of sleeping independently of the other, allowing your Biological Creature to function without turpor.
In some cases, each head controls a different part of the body (e.g. Abby and Bittany Hensel, born 1990, each control one hand and one leg. Interestingly, if one of them develops stomach ache, the other twin experiences the sensation instead).
In other cases, both heads are able to control all-or-most of the body - however, when they disagree on an action, this can cause the body to "lock up" and paralyse.
What you require is a situation where both heads can control the whole body, and sleep independently.
$endgroup$
Polycephaly is a medical condition, in which an animal has multiple heads. This is a special type of conjoined twin. 2 is the most common form, but there is at least 1 case of 3 heads documented (a turtle).
In many cases, each head is capable of sleeping independently of the other, allowing your Biological Creature to function without turpor.
In some cases, each head controls a different part of the body (e.g. Abby and Bittany Hensel, born 1990, each control one hand and one leg. Interestingly, if one of them develops stomach ache, the other twin experiences the sensation instead).
In other cases, both heads are able to control all-or-most of the body - however, when they disagree on an action, this can cause the body to "lock up" and paralyse.
What you require is a situation where both heads can control the whole body, and sleep independently.
answered 9 hours ago
ChronocidalChronocidal
10.2k2 gold badges13 silver badges48 bronze badges
10.2k2 gold badges13 silver badges48 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
You don't need new organs you just need a few tweaks to the way the brain operates & Dolphins have already solved this one for you, obviously they sink if they stop swimming & if they sink they drown so they can't sleep, well they do, but they sleep one hemisphere of their brain at a time.
There's some evidence that dolphins can display slightly different personalities depending on which half (or none) of their brain is sleeping, which is interesting but perhaps not relevant :)
Ah! but on a re-read I see you don't want that option.
Well there's also a commercially available drug in the US that stops you needing any sleep, there was a documentary I saw on it a few years ago.
I can't remember what either that drug or the documentary was called but you might find this article helpful.
Sleep is largely a function of biochemical process in the brain so simply manipulating the genes to adjust the Adenosine receptors to prevent uptake of this neurotransmitter or reduce or else prevent production of it might do the trick.
A downside is that sleep is an integral part of transferring short term memory to long term memory & as far as we know no organism that uses long term memory can do without it indefinitely.
I don't know 'why' the brain needs sleep to transfer short term memory to long term but as sleep is a such a vulnerable state to be in there must be strong evolutionary pressure against any alternative to the dolphins for it not to already have appeared.
Long & the short is the dolphin answer seems the best option to get the 'appearance' of what you ask for despite the fact you remove that option in your question.
But there's no reason to stick to the two hemisphere plan of the the Dolphins (presumably shared by whales).
You could split the brain into four or more with overlapping sleep patterns such that each part (eventually) shares sleep time with each other part, you can use that to plausibly say long term memory is duplicated to all parts of the brain during this time to avoid any long term variation in memory & personality during different parts of their sleep pattern.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
the issue is dolphins do go into torpor and for much longer than a mammal of the same sizes sleeps.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : Well yes, in human terms one or other half of their brain is asleep for up to 16 hours a day & both sides are awake at the same time for only 8 hours but a mammal can operate with only one hemisphere (the other having been surgically excised) just as well as if it had both halves, after a period of adjustment following the loss.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Pelinore "Just as well" is patently wrong. "can get by" is closer to the truth, and that's only true with humans who have a huge highly plastic brain plus large external support systems. dolphins with one side sleeping are almost completely unreactive, with only the bare minimum of functions happening. You are also wrong about how long a dolphin sleeps for, each half of the brain sleeps for about 4 hours, for around 8 hours of total torpor..
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : thanks for the 4 hours, as I said 'in human terms' because I didn't know what the dolphins was :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : I think it's safe to assume the OP's protagonists are going to 'have a huge highly plastic brain' :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
$begingroup$
You don't need new organs you just need a few tweaks to the way the brain operates & Dolphins have already solved this one for you, obviously they sink if they stop swimming & if they sink they drown so they can't sleep, well they do, but they sleep one hemisphere of their brain at a time.
There's some evidence that dolphins can display slightly different personalities depending on which half (or none) of their brain is sleeping, which is interesting but perhaps not relevant :)
Ah! but on a re-read I see you don't want that option.
Well there's also a commercially available drug in the US that stops you needing any sleep, there was a documentary I saw on it a few years ago.
I can't remember what either that drug or the documentary was called but you might find this article helpful.
Sleep is largely a function of biochemical process in the brain so simply manipulating the genes to adjust the Adenosine receptors to prevent uptake of this neurotransmitter or reduce or else prevent production of it might do the trick.
A downside is that sleep is an integral part of transferring short term memory to long term memory & as far as we know no organism that uses long term memory can do without it indefinitely.
I don't know 'why' the brain needs sleep to transfer short term memory to long term but as sleep is a such a vulnerable state to be in there must be strong evolutionary pressure against any alternative to the dolphins for it not to already have appeared.
Long & the short is the dolphin answer seems the best option to get the 'appearance' of what you ask for despite the fact you remove that option in your question.
But there's no reason to stick to the two hemisphere plan of the the Dolphins (presumably shared by whales).
You could split the brain into four or more with overlapping sleep patterns such that each part (eventually) shares sleep time with each other part, you can use that to plausibly say long term memory is duplicated to all parts of the brain during this time to avoid any long term variation in memory & personality during different parts of their sleep pattern.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
the issue is dolphins do go into torpor and for much longer than a mammal of the same sizes sleeps.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : Well yes, in human terms one or other half of their brain is asleep for up to 16 hours a day & both sides are awake at the same time for only 8 hours but a mammal can operate with only one hemisphere (the other having been surgically excised) just as well as if it had both halves, after a period of adjustment following the loss.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Pelinore "Just as well" is patently wrong. "can get by" is closer to the truth, and that's only true with humans who have a huge highly plastic brain plus large external support systems. dolphins with one side sleeping are almost completely unreactive, with only the bare minimum of functions happening. You are also wrong about how long a dolphin sleeps for, each half of the brain sleeps for about 4 hours, for around 8 hours of total torpor..
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : thanks for the 4 hours, as I said 'in human terms' because I didn't know what the dolphins was :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : I think it's safe to assume the OP's protagonists are going to 'have a huge highly plastic brain' :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
$begingroup$
You don't need new organs you just need a few tweaks to the way the brain operates & Dolphins have already solved this one for you, obviously they sink if they stop swimming & if they sink they drown so they can't sleep, well they do, but they sleep one hemisphere of their brain at a time.
There's some evidence that dolphins can display slightly different personalities depending on which half (or none) of their brain is sleeping, which is interesting but perhaps not relevant :)
Ah! but on a re-read I see you don't want that option.
Well there's also a commercially available drug in the US that stops you needing any sleep, there was a documentary I saw on it a few years ago.
I can't remember what either that drug or the documentary was called but you might find this article helpful.
Sleep is largely a function of biochemical process in the brain so simply manipulating the genes to adjust the Adenosine receptors to prevent uptake of this neurotransmitter or reduce or else prevent production of it might do the trick.
A downside is that sleep is an integral part of transferring short term memory to long term memory & as far as we know no organism that uses long term memory can do without it indefinitely.
I don't know 'why' the brain needs sleep to transfer short term memory to long term but as sleep is a such a vulnerable state to be in there must be strong evolutionary pressure against any alternative to the dolphins for it not to already have appeared.
Long & the short is the dolphin answer seems the best option to get the 'appearance' of what you ask for despite the fact you remove that option in your question.
But there's no reason to stick to the two hemisphere plan of the the Dolphins (presumably shared by whales).
You could split the brain into four or more with overlapping sleep patterns such that each part (eventually) shares sleep time with each other part, you can use that to plausibly say long term memory is duplicated to all parts of the brain during this time to avoid any long term variation in memory & personality during different parts of their sleep pattern.
$endgroup$
You don't need new organs you just need a few tweaks to the way the brain operates & Dolphins have already solved this one for you, obviously they sink if they stop swimming & if they sink they drown so they can't sleep, well they do, but they sleep one hemisphere of their brain at a time.
There's some evidence that dolphins can display slightly different personalities depending on which half (or none) of their brain is sleeping, which is interesting but perhaps not relevant :)
Ah! but on a re-read I see you don't want that option.
Well there's also a commercially available drug in the US that stops you needing any sleep, there was a documentary I saw on it a few years ago.
I can't remember what either that drug or the documentary was called but you might find this article helpful.
Sleep is largely a function of biochemical process in the brain so simply manipulating the genes to adjust the Adenosine receptors to prevent uptake of this neurotransmitter or reduce or else prevent production of it might do the trick.
A downside is that sleep is an integral part of transferring short term memory to long term memory & as far as we know no organism that uses long term memory can do without it indefinitely.
I don't know 'why' the brain needs sleep to transfer short term memory to long term but as sleep is a such a vulnerable state to be in there must be strong evolutionary pressure against any alternative to the dolphins for it not to already have appeared.
Long & the short is the dolphin answer seems the best option to get the 'appearance' of what you ask for despite the fact you remove that option in your question.
But there's no reason to stick to the two hemisphere plan of the the Dolphins (presumably shared by whales).
You could split the brain into four or more with overlapping sleep patterns such that each part (eventually) shares sleep time with each other part, you can use that to plausibly say long term memory is duplicated to all parts of the brain during this time to avoid any long term variation in memory & personality during different parts of their sleep pattern.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 11 hours ago
PelinorePelinore
2,7319 silver badges25 bronze badges
2,7319 silver badges25 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
the issue is dolphins do go into torpor and for much longer than a mammal of the same sizes sleeps.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : Well yes, in human terms one or other half of their brain is asleep for up to 16 hours a day & both sides are awake at the same time for only 8 hours but a mammal can operate with only one hemisphere (the other having been surgically excised) just as well as if it had both halves, after a period of adjustment following the loss.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Pelinore "Just as well" is patently wrong. "can get by" is closer to the truth, and that's only true with humans who have a huge highly plastic brain plus large external support systems. dolphins with one side sleeping are almost completely unreactive, with only the bare minimum of functions happening. You are also wrong about how long a dolphin sleeps for, each half of the brain sleeps for about 4 hours, for around 8 hours of total torpor..
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : thanks for the 4 hours, as I said 'in human terms' because I didn't know what the dolphins was :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : I think it's safe to assume the OP's protagonists are going to 'have a huge highly plastic brain' :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
1
$begingroup$
the issue is dolphins do go into torpor and for much longer than a mammal of the same sizes sleeps.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : Well yes, in human terms one or other half of their brain is asleep for up to 16 hours a day & both sides are awake at the same time for only 8 hours but a mammal can operate with only one hemisphere (the other having been surgically excised) just as well as if it had both halves, after a period of adjustment following the loss.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@Pelinore "Just as well" is patently wrong. "can get by" is closer to the truth, and that's only true with humans who have a huge highly plastic brain plus large external support systems. dolphins with one side sleeping are almost completely unreactive, with only the bare minimum of functions happening. You are also wrong about how long a dolphin sleeps for, each half of the brain sleeps for about 4 hours, for around 8 hours of total torpor..
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : thanks for the 4 hours, as I said 'in human terms' because I didn't know what the dolphins was :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@John : I think it's safe to assume the OP's protagonists are going to 'have a huge highly plastic brain' :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
the issue is dolphins do go into torpor and for much longer than a mammal of the same sizes sleeps.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
the issue is dolphins do go into torpor and for much longer than a mammal of the same sizes sleeps.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@John : Well yes, in human terms one or other half of their brain is asleep for up to 16 hours a day & both sides are awake at the same time for only 8 hours but a mammal can operate with only one hemisphere (the other having been surgically excised) just as well as if it had both halves, after a period of adjustment following the loss.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John : Well yes, in human terms one or other half of their brain is asleep for up to 16 hours a day & both sides are awake at the same time for only 8 hours but a mammal can operate with only one hemisphere (the other having been surgically excised) just as well as if it had both halves, after a period of adjustment following the loss.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
@Pelinore "Just as well" is patently wrong. "can get by" is closer to the truth, and that's only true with humans who have a huge highly plastic brain plus large external support systems. dolphins with one side sleeping are almost completely unreactive, with only the bare minimum of functions happening. You are also wrong about how long a dolphin sleeps for, each half of the brain sleeps for about 4 hours, for around 8 hours of total torpor..
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Pelinore "Just as well" is patently wrong. "can get by" is closer to the truth, and that's only true with humans who have a huge highly plastic brain plus large external support systems. dolphins with one side sleeping are almost completely unreactive, with only the bare minimum of functions happening. You are also wrong about how long a dolphin sleeps for, each half of the brain sleeps for about 4 hours, for around 8 hours of total torpor..
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@John : thanks for the 4 hours, as I said 'in human terms' because I didn't know what the dolphins was :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John : thanks for the 4 hours, as I said 'in human terms' because I didn't know what the dolphins was :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@John : I think it's safe to assume the OP's protagonists are going to 'have a huge highly plastic brain' :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John : I think it's safe to assume the OP's protagonists are going to 'have a huge highly plastic brain' :)
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
10 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
$begingroup$
Brain with three hemispheres
The state in dolphins and some birds that could keep some functions while sleeping is achieved by working with only one of the hemispheres of their brains while in "sleep state" the other part is resting.
If you add an extra hemisphere that would support the "awake" part with their normal functions you could cycle between them to achieve a "non-sleep state" during most part of the life of the creature that you are designing.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
This would be a Trientsphere by definition, rather than a hemisphere. But are you suggesting that two trientspheres would be active at any one given time, with each trientsphere taking a third of the day to sleep, or that the new component would always be active, supporting the active bit? Because then the question of "when does the new lobe sleep?" arises.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Brain with three hemispheres
The state in dolphins and some birds that could keep some functions while sleeping is achieved by working with only one of the hemispheres of their brains while in "sleep state" the other part is resting.
If you add an extra hemisphere that would support the "awake" part with their normal functions you could cycle between them to achieve a "non-sleep state" during most part of the life of the creature that you are designing.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
This would be a Trientsphere by definition, rather than a hemisphere. But are you suggesting that two trientspheres would be active at any one given time, with each trientsphere taking a third of the day to sleep, or that the new component would always be active, supporting the active bit? Because then the question of "when does the new lobe sleep?" arises.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Brain with three hemispheres
The state in dolphins and some birds that could keep some functions while sleeping is achieved by working with only one of the hemispheres of their brains while in "sleep state" the other part is resting.
If you add an extra hemisphere that would support the "awake" part with their normal functions you could cycle between them to achieve a "non-sleep state" during most part of the life of the creature that you are designing.
$endgroup$
Brain with three hemispheres
The state in dolphins and some birds that could keep some functions while sleeping is achieved by working with only one of the hemispheres of their brains while in "sleep state" the other part is resting.
If you add an extra hemisphere that would support the "awake" part with their normal functions you could cycle between them to achieve a "non-sleep state" during most part of the life of the creature that you are designing.
answered 5 hours ago
TridamTridam
1,4763 silver badges9 bronze badges
1,4763 silver badges9 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
This would be a Trientsphere by definition, rather than a hemisphere. But are you suggesting that two trientspheres would be active at any one given time, with each trientsphere taking a third of the day to sleep, or that the new component would always be active, supporting the active bit? Because then the question of "when does the new lobe sleep?" arises.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
2
$begingroup$
This would be a Trientsphere by definition, rather than a hemisphere. But are you suggesting that two trientspheres would be active at any one given time, with each trientsphere taking a third of the day to sleep, or that the new component would always be active, supporting the active bit? Because then the question of "when does the new lobe sleep?" arises.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
This would be a Trientsphere by definition, rather than a hemisphere. But are you suggesting that two trientspheres would be active at any one given time, with each trientsphere taking a third of the day to sleep, or that the new component would always be active, supporting the active bit? Because then the question of "when does the new lobe sleep?" arises.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This would be a Trientsphere by definition, rather than a hemisphere. But are you suggesting that two trientspheres would be active at any one given time, with each trientsphere taking a third of the day to sleep, or that the new component would always be active, supporting the active bit? Because then the question of "when does the new lobe sleep?" arises.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
While multi-brain and multi-hemisphere answers have been posed, they all result in some loose of function while one part of the cognitive system is down. This seems against what the OP is looking for since he does not want dolphin style torpor.
However, computer scientists have already devised a number of systems called RAID controllers to be used by servers to replicate data across multiple hard drives in case of a disk failure and to allow for scheduled maintenance without downtime. When you consider sleep as analogous to server maintenance, it becomes obvious that a brain could use a similar system to overcome the need for sleep with a somewhat larger brain (or rather 2 identical brains). By replicating functionality, when one brain is ready to sleep, it wakes up the other brain duplicate it's memories of the day to it, and then goes to sleep. In this fashion, you would not notice a performance drop-off or change in personality because both brains are doing the same things with the same hardware and the same information, just at different times of day.
As jdunlop points out in the comments below, there are two possible concerns here: One being that sleep is poorly understood, and the other being that consciousness is poorly understood.
As far as those concerns go, the nature of sleep is irrelevant. We do not need to understand much about how sleep works to understand that it is an "offline process" where the brain is doing something other than what it does while you are awake. Whether it is a time to sort memories, replenish neurotransmitters, repair damage, etc. is inconsequential. As long as it is an isolated enough system to do what the brain is designed to do while sleeping, it can do that while the second brain takes over.
As for how consciousness goes, this is a more existential question than anything. To the outside observer, two brains attached to the same body with all the same capabilities, memories, skills, endocrine system, etc. would be indistinguishably the same person. If you ask either brain the same question, they will generally come to the same answer as long as they are syncing up their memories every switch over, and neither of them is significantly damaged.
From the inside, you would technically only "be you" half of the time, but you would always receive all of the memories and experiences as the other you. When "you" are in control, you really would not be able to tell the difference of when were awake, and when you remember being awake. You might experience something like deja vu twice a day for those moments when both minds are trading off, but the human mind is full of filters designed to merge multiple inputs into a single stream of consciousness; so, a species designed to function this way would likely have a mechanism for making the switch over feel seamless the same way we only see one image when we look at something with two eyes.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I think this is specious answer; as detailed in other answers, we don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain, so there's no guarantee that having a second brain would address the issue. In addition, we don't know how consciousness works, so the facile approach of "just runconsciousness.exe
on a second brain" is also lacking any sort of support of the sort the OP asked for.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@jdunlop "We don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain" sounds more like a frame challenge than a critique of this particular answer since it applies to all previous answers as well. You may consider posting a frame challenge answer outlining evidence that the process of sleep is not well enough understood to answer the question as asked.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
While multi-brain and multi-hemisphere answers have been posed, they all result in some loose of function while one part of the cognitive system is down. This seems against what the OP is looking for since he does not want dolphin style torpor.
However, computer scientists have already devised a number of systems called RAID controllers to be used by servers to replicate data across multiple hard drives in case of a disk failure and to allow for scheduled maintenance without downtime. When you consider sleep as analogous to server maintenance, it becomes obvious that a brain could use a similar system to overcome the need for sleep with a somewhat larger brain (or rather 2 identical brains). By replicating functionality, when one brain is ready to sleep, it wakes up the other brain duplicate it's memories of the day to it, and then goes to sleep. In this fashion, you would not notice a performance drop-off or change in personality because both brains are doing the same things with the same hardware and the same information, just at different times of day.
As jdunlop points out in the comments below, there are two possible concerns here: One being that sleep is poorly understood, and the other being that consciousness is poorly understood.
As far as those concerns go, the nature of sleep is irrelevant. We do not need to understand much about how sleep works to understand that it is an "offline process" where the brain is doing something other than what it does while you are awake. Whether it is a time to sort memories, replenish neurotransmitters, repair damage, etc. is inconsequential. As long as it is an isolated enough system to do what the brain is designed to do while sleeping, it can do that while the second brain takes over.
As for how consciousness goes, this is a more existential question than anything. To the outside observer, two brains attached to the same body with all the same capabilities, memories, skills, endocrine system, etc. would be indistinguishably the same person. If you ask either brain the same question, they will generally come to the same answer as long as they are syncing up their memories every switch over, and neither of them is significantly damaged.
From the inside, you would technically only "be you" half of the time, but you would always receive all of the memories and experiences as the other you. When "you" are in control, you really would not be able to tell the difference of when were awake, and when you remember being awake. You might experience something like deja vu twice a day for those moments when both minds are trading off, but the human mind is full of filters designed to merge multiple inputs into a single stream of consciousness; so, a species designed to function this way would likely have a mechanism for making the switch over feel seamless the same way we only see one image when we look at something with two eyes.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I think this is specious answer; as detailed in other answers, we don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain, so there's no guarantee that having a second brain would address the issue. In addition, we don't know how consciousness works, so the facile approach of "just runconsciousness.exe
on a second brain" is also lacking any sort of support of the sort the OP asked for.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@jdunlop "We don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain" sounds more like a frame challenge than a critique of this particular answer since it applies to all previous answers as well. You may consider posting a frame challenge answer outlining evidence that the process of sleep is not well enough understood to answer the question as asked.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
While multi-brain and multi-hemisphere answers have been posed, they all result in some loose of function while one part of the cognitive system is down. This seems against what the OP is looking for since he does not want dolphin style torpor.
However, computer scientists have already devised a number of systems called RAID controllers to be used by servers to replicate data across multiple hard drives in case of a disk failure and to allow for scheduled maintenance without downtime. When you consider sleep as analogous to server maintenance, it becomes obvious that a brain could use a similar system to overcome the need for sleep with a somewhat larger brain (or rather 2 identical brains). By replicating functionality, when one brain is ready to sleep, it wakes up the other brain duplicate it's memories of the day to it, and then goes to sleep. In this fashion, you would not notice a performance drop-off or change in personality because both brains are doing the same things with the same hardware and the same information, just at different times of day.
As jdunlop points out in the comments below, there are two possible concerns here: One being that sleep is poorly understood, and the other being that consciousness is poorly understood.
As far as those concerns go, the nature of sleep is irrelevant. We do not need to understand much about how sleep works to understand that it is an "offline process" where the brain is doing something other than what it does while you are awake. Whether it is a time to sort memories, replenish neurotransmitters, repair damage, etc. is inconsequential. As long as it is an isolated enough system to do what the brain is designed to do while sleeping, it can do that while the second brain takes over.
As for how consciousness goes, this is a more existential question than anything. To the outside observer, two brains attached to the same body with all the same capabilities, memories, skills, endocrine system, etc. would be indistinguishably the same person. If you ask either brain the same question, they will generally come to the same answer as long as they are syncing up their memories every switch over, and neither of them is significantly damaged.
From the inside, you would technically only "be you" half of the time, but you would always receive all of the memories and experiences as the other you. When "you" are in control, you really would not be able to tell the difference of when were awake, and when you remember being awake. You might experience something like deja vu twice a day for those moments when both minds are trading off, but the human mind is full of filters designed to merge multiple inputs into a single stream of consciousness; so, a species designed to function this way would likely have a mechanism for making the switch over feel seamless the same way we only see one image when we look at something with two eyes.
$endgroup$
While multi-brain and multi-hemisphere answers have been posed, they all result in some loose of function while one part of the cognitive system is down. This seems against what the OP is looking for since he does not want dolphin style torpor.
However, computer scientists have already devised a number of systems called RAID controllers to be used by servers to replicate data across multiple hard drives in case of a disk failure and to allow for scheduled maintenance without downtime. When you consider sleep as analogous to server maintenance, it becomes obvious that a brain could use a similar system to overcome the need for sleep with a somewhat larger brain (or rather 2 identical brains). By replicating functionality, when one brain is ready to sleep, it wakes up the other brain duplicate it's memories of the day to it, and then goes to sleep. In this fashion, you would not notice a performance drop-off or change in personality because both brains are doing the same things with the same hardware and the same information, just at different times of day.
As jdunlop points out in the comments below, there are two possible concerns here: One being that sleep is poorly understood, and the other being that consciousness is poorly understood.
As far as those concerns go, the nature of sleep is irrelevant. We do not need to understand much about how sleep works to understand that it is an "offline process" where the brain is doing something other than what it does while you are awake. Whether it is a time to sort memories, replenish neurotransmitters, repair damage, etc. is inconsequential. As long as it is an isolated enough system to do what the brain is designed to do while sleeping, it can do that while the second brain takes over.
As for how consciousness goes, this is a more existential question than anything. To the outside observer, two brains attached to the same body with all the same capabilities, memories, skills, endocrine system, etc. would be indistinguishably the same person. If you ask either brain the same question, they will generally come to the same answer as long as they are syncing up their memories every switch over, and neither of them is significantly damaged.
From the inside, you would technically only "be you" half of the time, but you would always receive all of the memories and experiences as the other you. When "you" are in control, you really would not be able to tell the difference of when were awake, and when you remember being awake. You might experience something like deja vu twice a day for those moments when both minds are trading off, but the human mind is full of filters designed to merge multiple inputs into a single stream of consciousness; so, a species designed to function this way would likely have a mechanism for making the switch over feel seamless the same way we only see one image when we look at something with two eyes.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 3 hours ago
NosajimikiNosajimiki
9,2971 gold badge14 silver badges46 bronze badges
9,2971 gold badge14 silver badges46 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
I think this is specious answer; as detailed in other answers, we don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain, so there's no guarantee that having a second brain would address the issue. In addition, we don't know how consciousness works, so the facile approach of "just runconsciousness.exe
on a second brain" is also lacking any sort of support of the sort the OP asked for.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@jdunlop "We don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain" sounds more like a frame challenge than a critique of this particular answer since it applies to all previous answers as well. You may consider posting a frame challenge answer outlining evidence that the process of sleep is not well enough understood to answer the question as asked.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
1
$begingroup$
I think this is specious answer; as detailed in other answers, we don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain, so there's no guarantee that having a second brain would address the issue. In addition, we don't know how consciousness works, so the facile approach of "just runconsciousness.exe
on a second brain" is also lacking any sort of support of the sort the OP asked for.
$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@jdunlop "We don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain" sounds more like a frame challenge than a critique of this particular answer since it applies to all previous answers as well. You may consider posting a frame challenge answer outlining evidence that the process of sleep is not well enough understood to answer the question as asked.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
I think this is specious answer; as detailed in other answers, we don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain, so there's no guarantee that having a second brain would address the issue. In addition, we don't know how consciousness works, so the facile approach of "just run
consciousness.exe
on a second brain" is also lacking any sort of support of the sort the OP asked for.$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think this is specious answer; as detailed in other answers, we don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain, so there's no guarantee that having a second brain would address the issue. In addition, we don't know how consciousness works, so the facile approach of "just run
consciousness.exe
on a second brain" is also lacking any sort of support of the sort the OP asked for.$endgroup$
– jdunlop
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@jdunlop "We don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain" sounds more like a frame challenge than a critique of this particular answer since it applies to all previous answers as well. You may consider posting a frame challenge answer outlining evidence that the process of sleep is not well enough understood to answer the question as asked.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@jdunlop "We don't understand the mechanism by which sleep renews the brain" sounds more like a frame challenge than a critique of this particular answer since it applies to all previous answers as well. You may consider posting a frame challenge answer outlining evidence that the process of sleep is not well enough understood to answer the question as asked.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
[Fiction]
Sleep is a natural stress reliever. In humans, and even in animals, you can expect a lack of sleep to lead to a situation of Hypertension. So, any sentient animal species that doesn't sleep at all has to be really stressed, which means its lifespan will be short lived.
Next, not sleeping is akin to an extreme case of insomnia which is biologically evolved in your case.
Since insomnia is a common occurence in humans, you can look into conditions that can trigger it/ break the regular sleep cycle, and factors that can keep it broken.
For example: In below, the bodily chemicals/ hormones work in tandem to affect the regular sleep in humans:
Exposure to light stimulates a nerve pathway from the retina in the eye to an area in the brain called the hypothalamus. There, a special center called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) initiates signals to other parts of the brain that control hormones, body temperature and other functions that play a role in making us feel sleepy or wide awake.
Melatonin is a natural hormone made by your body's pineal (pih-knee-uhl) gland. This is a pea-sized gland located just above the middle of the brain. During the day the pineal is inactive. When the sun goes down and darkness occurs, the pineal is "turned on" by the SCN and begins to actively produce melatonin, which is released into the blood. Usually, this occurs around 9 pm. As a result, melatonin levels in the blood rise sharply and you begin to feel less alert.
So, all you need to do is establish interference in a similar system/ remove the hormone, and your fictional species can go sleepless.
Next, give this species a short life, and an early reproductive age, where the stress they have on themselves doesn't affect their reproductive abilities by much yet.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
[Fiction]
Sleep is a natural stress reliever. In humans, and even in animals, you can expect a lack of sleep to lead to a situation of Hypertension. So, any sentient animal species that doesn't sleep at all has to be really stressed, which means its lifespan will be short lived.
Next, not sleeping is akin to an extreme case of insomnia which is biologically evolved in your case.
Since insomnia is a common occurence in humans, you can look into conditions that can trigger it/ break the regular sleep cycle, and factors that can keep it broken.
For example: In below, the bodily chemicals/ hormones work in tandem to affect the regular sleep in humans:
Exposure to light stimulates a nerve pathway from the retina in the eye to an area in the brain called the hypothalamus. There, a special center called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) initiates signals to other parts of the brain that control hormones, body temperature and other functions that play a role in making us feel sleepy or wide awake.
Melatonin is a natural hormone made by your body's pineal (pih-knee-uhl) gland. This is a pea-sized gland located just above the middle of the brain. During the day the pineal is inactive. When the sun goes down and darkness occurs, the pineal is "turned on" by the SCN and begins to actively produce melatonin, which is released into the blood. Usually, this occurs around 9 pm. As a result, melatonin levels in the blood rise sharply and you begin to feel less alert.
So, all you need to do is establish interference in a similar system/ remove the hormone, and your fictional species can go sleepless.
Next, give this species a short life, and an early reproductive age, where the stress they have on themselves doesn't affect their reproductive abilities by much yet.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
[Fiction]
Sleep is a natural stress reliever. In humans, and even in animals, you can expect a lack of sleep to lead to a situation of Hypertension. So, any sentient animal species that doesn't sleep at all has to be really stressed, which means its lifespan will be short lived.
Next, not sleeping is akin to an extreme case of insomnia which is biologically evolved in your case.
Since insomnia is a common occurence in humans, you can look into conditions that can trigger it/ break the regular sleep cycle, and factors that can keep it broken.
For example: In below, the bodily chemicals/ hormones work in tandem to affect the regular sleep in humans:
Exposure to light stimulates a nerve pathway from the retina in the eye to an area in the brain called the hypothalamus. There, a special center called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) initiates signals to other parts of the brain that control hormones, body temperature and other functions that play a role in making us feel sleepy or wide awake.
Melatonin is a natural hormone made by your body's pineal (pih-knee-uhl) gland. This is a pea-sized gland located just above the middle of the brain. During the day the pineal is inactive. When the sun goes down and darkness occurs, the pineal is "turned on" by the SCN and begins to actively produce melatonin, which is released into the blood. Usually, this occurs around 9 pm. As a result, melatonin levels in the blood rise sharply and you begin to feel less alert.
So, all you need to do is establish interference in a similar system/ remove the hormone, and your fictional species can go sleepless.
Next, give this species a short life, and an early reproductive age, where the stress they have on themselves doesn't affect their reproductive abilities by much yet.
$endgroup$
[Fiction]
Sleep is a natural stress reliever. In humans, and even in animals, you can expect a lack of sleep to lead to a situation of Hypertension. So, any sentient animal species that doesn't sleep at all has to be really stressed, which means its lifespan will be short lived.
Next, not sleeping is akin to an extreme case of insomnia which is biologically evolved in your case.
Since insomnia is a common occurence in humans, you can look into conditions that can trigger it/ break the regular sleep cycle, and factors that can keep it broken.
For example: In below, the bodily chemicals/ hormones work in tandem to affect the regular sleep in humans:
Exposure to light stimulates a nerve pathway from the retina in the eye to an area in the brain called the hypothalamus. There, a special center called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) initiates signals to other parts of the brain that control hormones, body temperature and other functions that play a role in making us feel sleepy or wide awake.
Melatonin is a natural hormone made by your body's pineal (pih-knee-uhl) gland. This is a pea-sized gland located just above the middle of the brain. During the day the pineal is inactive. When the sun goes down and darkness occurs, the pineal is "turned on" by the SCN and begins to actively produce melatonin, which is released into the blood. Usually, this occurs around 9 pm. As a result, melatonin levels in the blood rise sharply and you begin to feel less alert.
So, all you need to do is establish interference in a similar system/ remove the hormone, and your fictional species can go sleepless.
Next, give this species a short life, and an early reproductive age, where the stress they have on themselves doesn't affect their reproductive abilities by much yet.
answered 11 hours ago
mu 無mu 無
6073 silver badges5 bronze badges
6073 silver badges5 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Sleep is mostly required for highly intelligent lifeforms or lifeforms with complex memory functions as far as I know (Bacterias don't sleep). This is different from physical rest, which is for conserving energy. As such a life form with two independent brains that take turns, would probably not need to sleep, since each brain sleeps half the time in turn, despite the creature itself being awake. Both brains need to have identical functions, the only problem being sharing/syncing of memories between the two. Otherwise you will end up with a race with dissociative personality disorder. As for chemicals to prevent sleeping, that's just overdrafting, the brain will eventually shutdown , maybe even permanently.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Sleep is mostly required for highly intelligent lifeforms or lifeforms with complex memory functions as far as I know (Bacterias don't sleep). This is different from physical rest, which is for conserving energy. As such a life form with two independent brains that take turns, would probably not need to sleep, since each brain sleeps half the time in turn, despite the creature itself being awake. Both brains need to have identical functions, the only problem being sharing/syncing of memories between the two. Otherwise you will end up with a race with dissociative personality disorder. As for chemicals to prevent sleeping, that's just overdrafting, the brain will eventually shutdown , maybe even permanently.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Sleep is mostly required for highly intelligent lifeforms or lifeforms with complex memory functions as far as I know (Bacterias don't sleep). This is different from physical rest, which is for conserving energy. As such a life form with two independent brains that take turns, would probably not need to sleep, since each brain sleeps half the time in turn, despite the creature itself being awake. Both brains need to have identical functions, the only problem being sharing/syncing of memories between the two. Otherwise you will end up with a race with dissociative personality disorder. As for chemicals to prevent sleeping, that's just overdrafting, the brain will eventually shutdown , maybe even permanently.
$endgroup$
Sleep is mostly required for highly intelligent lifeforms or lifeforms with complex memory functions as far as I know (Bacterias don't sleep). This is different from physical rest, which is for conserving energy. As such a life form with two independent brains that take turns, would probably not need to sleep, since each brain sleeps half the time in turn, despite the creature itself being awake. Both brains need to have identical functions, the only problem being sharing/syncing of memories between the two. Otherwise you will end up with a race with dissociative personality disorder. As for chemicals to prevent sleeping, that's just overdrafting, the brain will eventually shutdown , maybe even permanently.
edited 11 hours ago
answered 11 hours ago
Deepon GhoseRoyDeepon GhoseRoy
953 bronze badges
953 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f155979%2fwhat-organs-or-modifications-would-be-needed-for-a-life-biological-creature-not%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
Its not about organs or chemicals, but about radically overhauling a body plan that requires regular sleep or risks breaking down. You can't get there from here; you'll need to design some new things that never needed sleep in the first place.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
11 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The brains of vertebrates need sleep, or else they malfunction with very serious effects. We don't know why exactly the brains of vertebrates need sleep; all we know is that they do, and that nothing we tried can replace sleep.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
caffeine can make you never need sleep, in fact trying would be lethal.
$endgroup$
– John
10 hours ago