Sinning and G-d's will, what's wrong with this logic?Punishment in this World or in the World To ComeWhat were Naomi's sins?How come chofni and phineas sin or not sinning?If Hashem is All-Powerful, why can't he take on a physical form?Does Judaism kill the infidels?Gehinnom; the place where the confrontation with one's own sins helps to purify this person?Why is Hashem being separate from his creation a more acceptable belief than His creation being within Him?

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Sinning and G-d's will, what's wrong with this logic?


Punishment in this World or in the World To ComeWhat were Naomi's sins?How come chofni and phineas sin or not sinning?If Hashem is All-Powerful, why can't he take on a physical form?Does Judaism kill the infidels?Gehinnom; the place where the confrontation with one's own sins helps to purify this person?Why is Hashem being separate from his creation a more acceptable belief than His creation being within Him?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








1















  1. Nothing happens against Hashem's will.

  2. Ergo, when one sins, that's also Hashem's will.

  3. Yet we know that Hashem wants us not to sin, so it's against His will.

Contradiction?










share|improve this question





















  • 3





    He wants us to have free will, which allows us to sin, which he doesn't want us to do

    – robev
    8 hours ago











  • If 1 is true, then the sin itself (the act of sinning) must also be something according to His will. This is just a logical consequence of 1.

    – user9806
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    You're just asking how we have free will if Hashem decides everything

    – robev
    7 hours ago











  • We have free will. Yet G-d does not like it when we sin - yet - if Hashem removed our free will we would be like robots and they would be no test and we would start to complain that we don't have free will (like how we complain that we don't have the right to vote even though we may vote against our own interest at times).

    – Shmuel
    7 hours ago












  • You might be interested in the thought of R. Mordechai Yosef Leiner of Izbica. To quote from Wikipedia’s summary, “[I]f everything is determined by God, then even sin is done in accordance with God's will.”

    – Joel K
    4 hours ago


















1















  1. Nothing happens against Hashem's will.

  2. Ergo, when one sins, that's also Hashem's will.

  3. Yet we know that Hashem wants us not to sin, so it's against His will.

Contradiction?










share|improve this question





















  • 3





    He wants us to have free will, which allows us to sin, which he doesn't want us to do

    – robev
    8 hours ago











  • If 1 is true, then the sin itself (the act of sinning) must also be something according to His will. This is just a logical consequence of 1.

    – user9806
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    You're just asking how we have free will if Hashem decides everything

    – robev
    7 hours ago











  • We have free will. Yet G-d does not like it when we sin - yet - if Hashem removed our free will we would be like robots and they would be no test and we would start to complain that we don't have free will (like how we complain that we don't have the right to vote even though we may vote against our own interest at times).

    – Shmuel
    7 hours ago












  • You might be interested in the thought of R. Mordechai Yosef Leiner of Izbica. To quote from Wikipedia’s summary, “[I]f everything is determined by God, then even sin is done in accordance with God's will.”

    – Joel K
    4 hours ago














1












1








1








  1. Nothing happens against Hashem's will.

  2. Ergo, when one sins, that's also Hashem's will.

  3. Yet we know that Hashem wants us not to sin, so it's against His will.

Contradiction?










share|improve this question
















  1. Nothing happens against Hashem's will.

  2. Ergo, when one sins, that's also Hashem's will.

  3. Yet we know that Hashem wants us not to sin, so it's against His will.

Contradiction?







hashkafah-philosophy theology sin






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 5 hours ago









Loewian

12.7k1 gold badge19 silver badges47 bronze badges




12.7k1 gold badge19 silver badges47 bronze badges










asked 8 hours ago









user9806user9806

4512 silver badges9 bronze badges




4512 silver badges9 bronze badges










  • 3





    He wants us to have free will, which allows us to sin, which he doesn't want us to do

    – robev
    8 hours ago











  • If 1 is true, then the sin itself (the act of sinning) must also be something according to His will. This is just a logical consequence of 1.

    – user9806
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    You're just asking how we have free will if Hashem decides everything

    – robev
    7 hours ago











  • We have free will. Yet G-d does not like it when we sin - yet - if Hashem removed our free will we would be like robots and they would be no test and we would start to complain that we don't have free will (like how we complain that we don't have the right to vote even though we may vote against our own interest at times).

    – Shmuel
    7 hours ago












  • You might be interested in the thought of R. Mordechai Yosef Leiner of Izbica. To quote from Wikipedia’s summary, “[I]f everything is determined by God, then even sin is done in accordance with God's will.”

    – Joel K
    4 hours ago













  • 3





    He wants us to have free will, which allows us to sin, which he doesn't want us to do

    – robev
    8 hours ago











  • If 1 is true, then the sin itself (the act of sinning) must also be something according to His will. This is just a logical consequence of 1.

    – user9806
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    You're just asking how we have free will if Hashem decides everything

    – robev
    7 hours ago











  • We have free will. Yet G-d does not like it when we sin - yet - if Hashem removed our free will we would be like robots and they would be no test and we would start to complain that we don't have free will (like how we complain that we don't have the right to vote even though we may vote against our own interest at times).

    – Shmuel
    7 hours ago












  • You might be interested in the thought of R. Mordechai Yosef Leiner of Izbica. To quote from Wikipedia’s summary, “[I]f everything is determined by God, then even sin is done in accordance with God's will.”

    – Joel K
    4 hours ago








3




3





He wants us to have free will, which allows us to sin, which he doesn't want us to do

– robev
8 hours ago





He wants us to have free will, which allows us to sin, which he doesn't want us to do

– robev
8 hours ago













If 1 is true, then the sin itself (the act of sinning) must also be something according to His will. This is just a logical consequence of 1.

– user9806
7 hours ago





If 1 is true, then the sin itself (the act of sinning) must also be something according to His will. This is just a logical consequence of 1.

– user9806
7 hours ago




2




2





You're just asking how we have free will if Hashem decides everything

– robev
7 hours ago





You're just asking how we have free will if Hashem decides everything

– robev
7 hours ago













We have free will. Yet G-d does not like it when we sin - yet - if Hashem removed our free will we would be like robots and they would be no test and we would start to complain that we don't have free will (like how we complain that we don't have the right to vote even though we may vote against our own interest at times).

– Shmuel
7 hours ago






We have free will. Yet G-d does not like it when we sin - yet - if Hashem removed our free will we would be like robots and they would be no test and we would start to complain that we don't have free will (like how we complain that we don't have the right to vote even though we may vote against our own interest at times).

– Shmuel
7 hours ago














You might be interested in the thought of R. Mordechai Yosef Leiner of Izbica. To quote from Wikipedia’s summary, “[I]f everything is determined by God, then even sin is done in accordance with God's will.”

– Joel K
4 hours ago






You might be interested in the thought of R. Mordechai Yosef Leiner of Izbica. To quote from Wikipedia’s summary, “[I]f everything is determined by God, then even sin is done in accordance with God's will.”

– Joel K
4 hours ago











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2
















From Rabbi Uri Sherqi:



  1. In the words of Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook, “Hashem needs their to be evil in the world. But, there’s no mizwah to volunteer.”

  2. If someone were to commit a sin absolutely Leshem Shamayim, it may be considered a mizwah. The problem is that there is a hazaqah on mankind that sins Leshem Shamayim are incredibly rare. And, if you commit the sin not Leshem Shamayim, you’ll pay the price for it.

In short, we are required to abide by what Hashem told us is mutar and assur.






share|improve this answer
































    2
















    Rambam Hilchot Teshuvah 5:4




    ואל תתמה ותאמר היאך יהיה האדם עושה כל מה שיחפוץ ויהיו מעשיו מסורים לו וכי יעשה בעולם דבר שלא ברשות קונו ולא חפצו והכתוב אומר כל אשר חפץ ה' עשה בשמים ובארץ דע שהכל כחפצו יעשה ואף על פי שמעשינו מסורין לנו כיצד כשם שהיוצר חפץ להיות האש והרוח עולים למעלה והמים והארץ יורדים למטה והגלגל סובב בעיגול וכן שאר בריות העולם להיות כמנהגן שחפץ בו ככה חפץ להיות האדם רשותו בידו וכל מעשיו מסורין לו ולא יהיה לו לא כופה ולא מושך אלא הוא מעצמו ובדעתו שנתן לו האל עושה כל שהאדם יכול לעשות



    A person should not wonder: How is it possible for one to do whatever he wants and be responsible for his own deeds? - Is it possible for anything to happen in this world without the permission and desire of its Creator as [Psalms 135:6] states: "Whatever God wishes, He has done in the heavens and in the earth?"



    One must know that everything is done in accord with His will and, nevertheless, we are responsible for our deeds.



    How is this [apparent contradiction] resolved? Just as the Creator desired that [the elements of] fire and wind rise upward and [those of] water and earth descend downward, that the heavenly spheres revolve in a circular orbit, and all the other creations of the world follow the nature which He desired for them, so too, He desired that man have free choice and be responsible for his deeds, without being pulled or forced. Rather, he, on his own initiative, with the knowledge which God has granted him, will do anything that man is able to do.



    (Touger translation, my emphasis)




    Essentially, then, God's will is that humans have the free choice to act against His will.






    share|improve this answer

























    • As with the other posts this doesn't answer the question. The whole point is how can he will something to go against his will. If he wills it it is by definition not against his will

      – Double AA
      2 hours ago






    • 1





      @DoubleAA I want you to upvote my answer. But I also want you to have the free choice to downvote my answer (or not vote at all). When designing the system I have to decide which of my wants is more important in case they come into conflict with each other.

      – Alex
      1 hour ago











    • Indeed when you have an apparent conflict you get to choose what you want in that case. You don't get to pick both.

      – Double AA
      1 hour ago












    • @DoubleAA But I don't think that means that I don't want both. It just means that I can't have both.

      – Alex
      1 hour ago











    • Interesting opinion. (The point is this is all a stupid word game, and the question and these answers are all based on semantically ambiguous claims about what "want" some "thing" means. Just posting a different ambiguous phrase with a different intended meaning doesn't help the OP understand the logical problem. You have to explain to him.)

      – Double AA
      1 hour ago



















    1
















    Assumptions 1, and therefore 2, are at least partly false. That nothing happens against the divine will is only true when one looks at the contextual greater picture. But without context i.e. at the "micro" level, choices are made against His will all the time, whenever people sin. He allows this for the same reason that He allows suffering - as part of a larger purpose, primarily free will.



    Saying that sin is according to His will is the same as saying that a parent who wants a child to learn to be independent, also wants the failures and suffering that inevitably result.






    share|improve this answer



























    • If He allows people to sin for whatever reason then isn't it His will?

      – Double AA
      5 hours ago












    • 2 is not an assumption, it's just a logical consequence of 1. Also, as a statement, 1 is either true (in its entirety) or not. If 1 is true : nothing happens against His will, which is the same as saying that everything happens according to His will, from which follows (by universal instantiation) that sin too is according to His will. And if 1 is false, then that's saying "there exist some things/events that happen against His will". Which I suppose may be theologically problematic.

      – user9806
      4 hours ago







    • 1





      What is theologically problematic about G-d desiring that there be free will?

      – Loewian
      51 mins ago




















    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2
















    From Rabbi Uri Sherqi:



    1. In the words of Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook, “Hashem needs their to be evil in the world. But, there’s no mizwah to volunteer.”

    2. If someone were to commit a sin absolutely Leshem Shamayim, it may be considered a mizwah. The problem is that there is a hazaqah on mankind that sins Leshem Shamayim are incredibly rare. And, if you commit the sin not Leshem Shamayim, you’ll pay the price for it.

    In short, we are required to abide by what Hashem told us is mutar and assur.






    share|improve this answer





























      2
















      From Rabbi Uri Sherqi:



      1. In the words of Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook, “Hashem needs their to be evil in the world. But, there’s no mizwah to volunteer.”

      2. If someone were to commit a sin absolutely Leshem Shamayim, it may be considered a mizwah. The problem is that there is a hazaqah on mankind that sins Leshem Shamayim are incredibly rare. And, if you commit the sin not Leshem Shamayim, you’ll pay the price for it.

      In short, we are required to abide by what Hashem told us is mutar and assur.






      share|improve this answer



























        2














        2










        2









        From Rabbi Uri Sherqi:



        1. In the words of Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook, “Hashem needs their to be evil in the world. But, there’s no mizwah to volunteer.”

        2. If someone were to commit a sin absolutely Leshem Shamayim, it may be considered a mizwah. The problem is that there is a hazaqah on mankind that sins Leshem Shamayim are incredibly rare. And, if you commit the sin not Leshem Shamayim, you’ll pay the price for it.

        In short, we are required to abide by what Hashem told us is mutar and assur.






        share|improve this answer













        From Rabbi Uri Sherqi:



        1. In the words of Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah Kook, “Hashem needs their to be evil in the world. But, there’s no mizwah to volunteer.”

        2. If someone were to commit a sin absolutely Leshem Shamayim, it may be considered a mizwah. The problem is that there is a hazaqah on mankind that sins Leshem Shamayim are incredibly rare. And, if you commit the sin not Leshem Shamayim, you’ll pay the price for it.

        In short, we are required to abide by what Hashem told us is mutar and assur.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 4 hours ago









        LeeLee

        5,6601 gold badge19 silver badges41 bronze badges




        5,6601 gold badge19 silver badges41 bronze badges


























            2
















            Rambam Hilchot Teshuvah 5:4




            ואל תתמה ותאמר היאך יהיה האדם עושה כל מה שיחפוץ ויהיו מעשיו מסורים לו וכי יעשה בעולם דבר שלא ברשות קונו ולא חפצו והכתוב אומר כל אשר חפץ ה' עשה בשמים ובארץ דע שהכל כחפצו יעשה ואף על פי שמעשינו מסורין לנו כיצד כשם שהיוצר חפץ להיות האש והרוח עולים למעלה והמים והארץ יורדים למטה והגלגל סובב בעיגול וכן שאר בריות העולם להיות כמנהגן שחפץ בו ככה חפץ להיות האדם רשותו בידו וכל מעשיו מסורין לו ולא יהיה לו לא כופה ולא מושך אלא הוא מעצמו ובדעתו שנתן לו האל עושה כל שהאדם יכול לעשות



            A person should not wonder: How is it possible for one to do whatever he wants and be responsible for his own deeds? - Is it possible for anything to happen in this world without the permission and desire of its Creator as [Psalms 135:6] states: "Whatever God wishes, He has done in the heavens and in the earth?"



            One must know that everything is done in accord with His will and, nevertheless, we are responsible for our deeds.



            How is this [apparent contradiction] resolved? Just as the Creator desired that [the elements of] fire and wind rise upward and [those of] water and earth descend downward, that the heavenly spheres revolve in a circular orbit, and all the other creations of the world follow the nature which He desired for them, so too, He desired that man have free choice and be responsible for his deeds, without being pulled or forced. Rather, he, on his own initiative, with the knowledge which God has granted him, will do anything that man is able to do.



            (Touger translation, my emphasis)




            Essentially, then, God's will is that humans have the free choice to act against His will.






            share|improve this answer

























            • As with the other posts this doesn't answer the question. The whole point is how can he will something to go against his will. If he wills it it is by definition not against his will

              – Double AA
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              @DoubleAA I want you to upvote my answer. But I also want you to have the free choice to downvote my answer (or not vote at all). When designing the system I have to decide which of my wants is more important in case they come into conflict with each other.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Indeed when you have an apparent conflict you get to choose what you want in that case. You don't get to pick both.

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago












            • @DoubleAA But I don't think that means that I don't want both. It just means that I can't have both.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Interesting opinion. (The point is this is all a stupid word game, and the question and these answers are all based on semantically ambiguous claims about what "want" some "thing" means. Just posting a different ambiguous phrase with a different intended meaning doesn't help the OP understand the logical problem. You have to explain to him.)

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago
















            2
















            Rambam Hilchot Teshuvah 5:4




            ואל תתמה ותאמר היאך יהיה האדם עושה כל מה שיחפוץ ויהיו מעשיו מסורים לו וכי יעשה בעולם דבר שלא ברשות קונו ולא חפצו והכתוב אומר כל אשר חפץ ה' עשה בשמים ובארץ דע שהכל כחפצו יעשה ואף על פי שמעשינו מסורין לנו כיצד כשם שהיוצר חפץ להיות האש והרוח עולים למעלה והמים והארץ יורדים למטה והגלגל סובב בעיגול וכן שאר בריות העולם להיות כמנהגן שחפץ בו ככה חפץ להיות האדם רשותו בידו וכל מעשיו מסורין לו ולא יהיה לו לא כופה ולא מושך אלא הוא מעצמו ובדעתו שנתן לו האל עושה כל שהאדם יכול לעשות



            A person should not wonder: How is it possible for one to do whatever he wants and be responsible for his own deeds? - Is it possible for anything to happen in this world without the permission and desire of its Creator as [Psalms 135:6] states: "Whatever God wishes, He has done in the heavens and in the earth?"



            One must know that everything is done in accord with His will and, nevertheless, we are responsible for our deeds.



            How is this [apparent contradiction] resolved? Just as the Creator desired that [the elements of] fire and wind rise upward and [those of] water and earth descend downward, that the heavenly spheres revolve in a circular orbit, and all the other creations of the world follow the nature which He desired for them, so too, He desired that man have free choice and be responsible for his deeds, without being pulled or forced. Rather, he, on his own initiative, with the knowledge which God has granted him, will do anything that man is able to do.



            (Touger translation, my emphasis)




            Essentially, then, God's will is that humans have the free choice to act against His will.






            share|improve this answer

























            • As with the other posts this doesn't answer the question. The whole point is how can he will something to go against his will. If he wills it it is by definition not against his will

              – Double AA
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              @DoubleAA I want you to upvote my answer. But I also want you to have the free choice to downvote my answer (or not vote at all). When designing the system I have to decide which of my wants is more important in case they come into conflict with each other.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Indeed when you have an apparent conflict you get to choose what you want in that case. You don't get to pick both.

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago












            • @DoubleAA But I don't think that means that I don't want both. It just means that I can't have both.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Interesting opinion. (The point is this is all a stupid word game, and the question and these answers are all based on semantically ambiguous claims about what "want" some "thing" means. Just posting a different ambiguous phrase with a different intended meaning doesn't help the OP understand the logical problem. You have to explain to him.)

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago














            2














            2










            2









            Rambam Hilchot Teshuvah 5:4




            ואל תתמה ותאמר היאך יהיה האדם עושה כל מה שיחפוץ ויהיו מעשיו מסורים לו וכי יעשה בעולם דבר שלא ברשות קונו ולא חפצו והכתוב אומר כל אשר חפץ ה' עשה בשמים ובארץ דע שהכל כחפצו יעשה ואף על פי שמעשינו מסורין לנו כיצד כשם שהיוצר חפץ להיות האש והרוח עולים למעלה והמים והארץ יורדים למטה והגלגל סובב בעיגול וכן שאר בריות העולם להיות כמנהגן שחפץ בו ככה חפץ להיות האדם רשותו בידו וכל מעשיו מסורין לו ולא יהיה לו לא כופה ולא מושך אלא הוא מעצמו ובדעתו שנתן לו האל עושה כל שהאדם יכול לעשות



            A person should not wonder: How is it possible for one to do whatever he wants and be responsible for his own deeds? - Is it possible for anything to happen in this world without the permission and desire of its Creator as [Psalms 135:6] states: "Whatever God wishes, He has done in the heavens and in the earth?"



            One must know that everything is done in accord with His will and, nevertheless, we are responsible for our deeds.



            How is this [apparent contradiction] resolved? Just as the Creator desired that [the elements of] fire and wind rise upward and [those of] water and earth descend downward, that the heavenly spheres revolve in a circular orbit, and all the other creations of the world follow the nature which He desired for them, so too, He desired that man have free choice and be responsible for his deeds, without being pulled or forced. Rather, he, on his own initiative, with the knowledge which God has granted him, will do anything that man is able to do.



            (Touger translation, my emphasis)




            Essentially, then, God's will is that humans have the free choice to act against His will.






            share|improve this answer













            Rambam Hilchot Teshuvah 5:4




            ואל תתמה ותאמר היאך יהיה האדם עושה כל מה שיחפוץ ויהיו מעשיו מסורים לו וכי יעשה בעולם דבר שלא ברשות קונו ולא חפצו והכתוב אומר כל אשר חפץ ה' עשה בשמים ובארץ דע שהכל כחפצו יעשה ואף על פי שמעשינו מסורין לנו כיצד כשם שהיוצר חפץ להיות האש והרוח עולים למעלה והמים והארץ יורדים למטה והגלגל סובב בעיגול וכן שאר בריות העולם להיות כמנהגן שחפץ בו ככה חפץ להיות האדם רשותו בידו וכל מעשיו מסורין לו ולא יהיה לו לא כופה ולא מושך אלא הוא מעצמו ובדעתו שנתן לו האל עושה כל שהאדם יכול לעשות



            A person should not wonder: How is it possible for one to do whatever he wants and be responsible for his own deeds? - Is it possible for anything to happen in this world without the permission and desire of its Creator as [Psalms 135:6] states: "Whatever God wishes, He has done in the heavens and in the earth?"



            One must know that everything is done in accord with His will and, nevertheless, we are responsible for our deeds.



            How is this [apparent contradiction] resolved? Just as the Creator desired that [the elements of] fire and wind rise upward and [those of] water and earth descend downward, that the heavenly spheres revolve in a circular orbit, and all the other creations of the world follow the nature which He desired for them, so too, He desired that man have free choice and be responsible for his deeds, without being pulled or forced. Rather, he, on his own initiative, with the knowledge which God has granted him, will do anything that man is able to do.



            (Touger translation, my emphasis)




            Essentially, then, God's will is that humans have the free choice to act against His will.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 2 hours ago









            AlexAlex

            29.8k3 gold badges75 silver badges158 bronze badges




            29.8k3 gold badges75 silver badges158 bronze badges















            • As with the other posts this doesn't answer the question. The whole point is how can he will something to go against his will. If he wills it it is by definition not against his will

              – Double AA
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              @DoubleAA I want you to upvote my answer. But I also want you to have the free choice to downvote my answer (or not vote at all). When designing the system I have to decide which of my wants is more important in case they come into conflict with each other.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Indeed when you have an apparent conflict you get to choose what you want in that case. You don't get to pick both.

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago












            • @DoubleAA But I don't think that means that I don't want both. It just means that I can't have both.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Interesting opinion. (The point is this is all a stupid word game, and the question and these answers are all based on semantically ambiguous claims about what "want" some "thing" means. Just posting a different ambiguous phrase with a different intended meaning doesn't help the OP understand the logical problem. You have to explain to him.)

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago


















            • As with the other posts this doesn't answer the question. The whole point is how can he will something to go against his will. If he wills it it is by definition not against his will

              – Double AA
              2 hours ago






            • 1





              @DoubleAA I want you to upvote my answer. But I also want you to have the free choice to downvote my answer (or not vote at all). When designing the system I have to decide which of my wants is more important in case they come into conflict with each other.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Indeed when you have an apparent conflict you get to choose what you want in that case. You don't get to pick both.

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago












            • @DoubleAA But I don't think that means that I don't want both. It just means that I can't have both.

              – Alex
              1 hour ago











            • Interesting opinion. (The point is this is all a stupid word game, and the question and these answers are all based on semantically ambiguous claims about what "want" some "thing" means. Just posting a different ambiguous phrase with a different intended meaning doesn't help the OP understand the logical problem. You have to explain to him.)

              – Double AA
              1 hour ago

















            As with the other posts this doesn't answer the question. The whole point is how can he will something to go against his will. If he wills it it is by definition not against his will

            – Double AA
            2 hours ago





            As with the other posts this doesn't answer the question. The whole point is how can he will something to go against his will. If he wills it it is by definition not against his will

            – Double AA
            2 hours ago




            1




            1





            @DoubleAA I want you to upvote my answer. But I also want you to have the free choice to downvote my answer (or not vote at all). When designing the system I have to decide which of my wants is more important in case they come into conflict with each other.

            – Alex
            1 hour ago





            @DoubleAA I want you to upvote my answer. But I also want you to have the free choice to downvote my answer (or not vote at all). When designing the system I have to decide which of my wants is more important in case they come into conflict with each other.

            – Alex
            1 hour ago













            Indeed when you have an apparent conflict you get to choose what you want in that case. You don't get to pick both.

            – Double AA
            1 hour ago






            Indeed when you have an apparent conflict you get to choose what you want in that case. You don't get to pick both.

            – Double AA
            1 hour ago














            @DoubleAA But I don't think that means that I don't want both. It just means that I can't have both.

            – Alex
            1 hour ago





            @DoubleAA But I don't think that means that I don't want both. It just means that I can't have both.

            – Alex
            1 hour ago













            Interesting opinion. (The point is this is all a stupid word game, and the question and these answers are all based on semantically ambiguous claims about what "want" some "thing" means. Just posting a different ambiguous phrase with a different intended meaning doesn't help the OP understand the logical problem. You have to explain to him.)

            – Double AA
            1 hour ago






            Interesting opinion. (The point is this is all a stupid word game, and the question and these answers are all based on semantically ambiguous claims about what "want" some "thing" means. Just posting a different ambiguous phrase with a different intended meaning doesn't help the OP understand the logical problem. You have to explain to him.)

            – Double AA
            1 hour ago












            1
















            Assumptions 1, and therefore 2, are at least partly false. That nothing happens against the divine will is only true when one looks at the contextual greater picture. But without context i.e. at the "micro" level, choices are made against His will all the time, whenever people sin. He allows this for the same reason that He allows suffering - as part of a larger purpose, primarily free will.



            Saying that sin is according to His will is the same as saying that a parent who wants a child to learn to be independent, also wants the failures and suffering that inevitably result.






            share|improve this answer



























            • If He allows people to sin for whatever reason then isn't it His will?

              – Double AA
              5 hours ago












            • 2 is not an assumption, it's just a logical consequence of 1. Also, as a statement, 1 is either true (in its entirety) or not. If 1 is true : nothing happens against His will, which is the same as saying that everything happens according to His will, from which follows (by universal instantiation) that sin too is according to His will. And if 1 is false, then that's saying "there exist some things/events that happen against His will". Which I suppose may be theologically problematic.

              – user9806
              4 hours ago







            • 1





              What is theologically problematic about G-d desiring that there be free will?

              – Loewian
              51 mins ago















            1
















            Assumptions 1, and therefore 2, are at least partly false. That nothing happens against the divine will is only true when one looks at the contextual greater picture. But without context i.e. at the "micro" level, choices are made against His will all the time, whenever people sin. He allows this for the same reason that He allows suffering - as part of a larger purpose, primarily free will.



            Saying that sin is according to His will is the same as saying that a parent who wants a child to learn to be independent, also wants the failures and suffering that inevitably result.






            share|improve this answer



























            • If He allows people to sin for whatever reason then isn't it His will?

              – Double AA
              5 hours ago












            • 2 is not an assumption, it's just a logical consequence of 1. Also, as a statement, 1 is either true (in its entirety) or not. If 1 is true : nothing happens against His will, which is the same as saying that everything happens according to His will, from which follows (by universal instantiation) that sin too is according to His will. And if 1 is false, then that's saying "there exist some things/events that happen against His will". Which I suppose may be theologically problematic.

              – user9806
              4 hours ago







            • 1





              What is theologically problematic about G-d desiring that there be free will?

              – Loewian
              51 mins ago













            1














            1










            1









            Assumptions 1, and therefore 2, are at least partly false. That nothing happens against the divine will is only true when one looks at the contextual greater picture. But without context i.e. at the "micro" level, choices are made against His will all the time, whenever people sin. He allows this for the same reason that He allows suffering - as part of a larger purpose, primarily free will.



            Saying that sin is according to His will is the same as saying that a parent who wants a child to learn to be independent, also wants the failures and suffering that inevitably result.






            share|improve this answer















            Assumptions 1, and therefore 2, are at least partly false. That nothing happens against the divine will is only true when one looks at the contextual greater picture. But without context i.e. at the "micro" level, choices are made against His will all the time, whenever people sin. He allows this for the same reason that He allows suffering - as part of a larger purpose, primarily free will.



            Saying that sin is according to His will is the same as saying that a parent who wants a child to learn to be independent, also wants the failures and suffering that inevitably result.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 54 mins ago

























            answered 5 hours ago









            LoewianLoewian

            12.7k1 gold badge19 silver badges47 bronze badges




            12.7k1 gold badge19 silver badges47 bronze badges















            • If He allows people to sin for whatever reason then isn't it His will?

              – Double AA
              5 hours ago












            • 2 is not an assumption, it's just a logical consequence of 1. Also, as a statement, 1 is either true (in its entirety) or not. If 1 is true : nothing happens against His will, which is the same as saying that everything happens according to His will, from which follows (by universal instantiation) that sin too is according to His will. And if 1 is false, then that's saying "there exist some things/events that happen against His will". Which I suppose may be theologically problematic.

              – user9806
              4 hours ago







            • 1





              What is theologically problematic about G-d desiring that there be free will?

              – Loewian
              51 mins ago

















            • If He allows people to sin for whatever reason then isn't it His will?

              – Double AA
              5 hours ago












            • 2 is not an assumption, it's just a logical consequence of 1. Also, as a statement, 1 is either true (in its entirety) or not. If 1 is true : nothing happens against His will, which is the same as saying that everything happens according to His will, from which follows (by universal instantiation) that sin too is according to His will. And if 1 is false, then that's saying "there exist some things/events that happen against His will". Which I suppose may be theologically problematic.

              – user9806
              4 hours ago







            • 1





              What is theologically problematic about G-d desiring that there be free will?

              – Loewian
              51 mins ago
















            If He allows people to sin for whatever reason then isn't it His will?

            – Double AA
            5 hours ago






            If He allows people to sin for whatever reason then isn't it His will?

            – Double AA
            5 hours ago














            2 is not an assumption, it's just a logical consequence of 1. Also, as a statement, 1 is either true (in its entirety) or not. If 1 is true : nothing happens against His will, which is the same as saying that everything happens according to His will, from which follows (by universal instantiation) that sin too is according to His will. And if 1 is false, then that's saying "there exist some things/events that happen against His will". Which I suppose may be theologically problematic.

            – user9806
            4 hours ago






            2 is not an assumption, it's just a logical consequence of 1. Also, as a statement, 1 is either true (in its entirety) or not. If 1 is true : nothing happens against His will, which is the same as saying that everything happens according to His will, from which follows (by universal instantiation) that sin too is according to His will. And if 1 is false, then that's saying "there exist some things/events that happen against His will". Which I suppose may be theologically problematic.

            – user9806
            4 hours ago





            1




            1





            What is theologically problematic about G-d desiring that there be free will?

            – Loewian
            51 mins ago





            What is theologically problematic about G-d desiring that there be free will?

            – Loewian
            51 mins ago



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