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Why are non-collision-resistant hash functions considered insecure for signing self-generated information


Why are hash functions one way? If I know the algorithm, why can't I calculate the input from it?Can a zero knowledge proof of voting be made using a trusted auth server (without client side crypto)?What are the implications of SHA-1 collision for other hash functions like RIPEMD-160?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








3















Let we have a hash function that is second preimage resistant but not collision-resistant.



Then an adversary can create a pair of different messages M and M', M is benign and M' is malicious, for both of which the signature will be valid.



I don't understand why it is an issue in the setting where signatures are used to authenticate origin of data created by the same entity. So if one signs some software he claims "I have created this content myself, if it contains malware, blame me". And for keys: "this public key has a corresponding private key, I have access to it".



If one crafts a collision and signs self-generated data ... he still claims the above statements.



So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?










share|improve this question
































    3















    Let we have a hash function that is second preimage resistant but not collision-resistant.



    Then an adversary can create a pair of different messages M and M', M is benign and M' is malicious, for both of which the signature will be valid.



    I don't understand why it is an issue in the setting where signatures are used to authenticate origin of data created by the same entity. So if one signs some software he claims "I have created this content myself, if it contains malware, blame me". And for keys: "this public key has a corresponding private key, I have access to it".



    If one crafts a collision and signs self-generated data ... he still claims the above statements.



    So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?










    share|improve this question




























      3












      3








      3


      2






      Let we have a hash function that is second preimage resistant but not collision-resistant.



      Then an adversary can create a pair of different messages M and M', M is benign and M' is malicious, for both of which the signature will be valid.



      I don't understand why it is an issue in the setting where signatures are used to authenticate origin of data created by the same entity. So if one signs some software he claims "I have created this content myself, if it contains malware, blame me". And for keys: "this public key has a corresponding private key, I have access to it".



      If one crafts a collision and signs self-generated data ... he still claims the above statements.



      So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?










      share|improve this question
















      Let we have a hash function that is second preimage resistant but not collision-resistant.



      Then an adversary can create a pair of different messages M and M', M is benign and M' is malicious, for both of which the signature will be valid.



      I don't understand why it is an issue in the setting where signatures are used to authenticate origin of data created by the same entity. So if one signs some software he claims "I have created this content myself, if it contains malware, blame me". And for keys: "this public key has a corresponding private key, I have access to it".



      If one crafts a collision and signs self-generated data ... he still claims the above statements.



      So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?







      hash digital-signature code-signing






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 4 hours ago







      KOLANICH

















      asked 8 hours ago









      KOLANICHKOLANICH

      5124 silver badges13 bronze badges




      5124 silver badges13 bronze badges























          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

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          4















          Digital signatures are designed to do three things:



          1. Ensure the integrity of the data that has been signed

          2. Create some degree of non-repudiation by the signer

          3. The purpose you mentioned, which is to authenticate the origin of the message

          The biggest issue with hash functions that are susceptible to collisions is that you very quickly lose the first design goal. If two different messages can have the same signature, then you can't know which are genuine.



          So, what's the big deal if I can sign two different messages with the same signature? You still know they both came from me and can hold me accountable, right? Well, perhaps. There are certainly some cases where this can be abused, but we're going to ignore them because they aren't the real issue. The real issue is where you can craft two messages that will have the same signature and the submit one of the for someone else to sign.



          The canonical example here is a x.509 (SSL/TLS) certificate request. In this case, a poorly designed certificate signing process can be leveraged to induce a Certificate Authority to sign a certificate for one subject or with one set of properties (like an end-entity certificate), only to have the signature collide with the signature for a second certificate also generated by the attackers that would not have been issued for a subject the attackers don't control, or a CA cert, and that rouge cert can now benefit from the perfectly valid signature associated with first, benign certificate.






          share|improve this answer
































            3















            Xander's answer is fundamentally correct: the issue is getting someone else to sign a benign message and use the signature for the malicious one. It is worth noting that although when you make a collision you don't get to decide on the messages directly, you often do get to decide on part of the message. For example I couldn't persuade you to sign "My name is KOLANICH" and swap it for "My name is Josiah": the hashes are vanishingly unlikely to match. However I might be able to get you to sign "Please pay account number X $50 for shoes with reference code ZZZZZZZZZZ." and then replace it with "Please pay account number X $50000 with reference code YYYYYYYYYY." In this scenario I choose whichever Y and Z I need to get the collision.



            An additional reason that they are considered insecure is a canary in a coal mine situation. It is easier to find a collision than to find a second preimage; strictly so because if you had a second preimage attack you automatically have a collision, but not vice versa. However, even though having a technique for finding a collision doesn't directly give you second preimages, it does suggest that there is some regularity to the hash function that is likely to surface vulnerabilities which would with further research allow finding preimages.






            share|improve this answer


































              0















              Well, in theory you would be right. In some very specific cases those hashes would not be completely broken.



              However, you would need to be extra cautious, and supposedly some "self-generated" data could actually be insecure. Would you consider the check's written by the accountant to be self-generated by the accountant? Apparently yes, but it actually contains externally controlled data that could be used to produce a signature of a different content.




              So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?




              You don't really verify self-signed certificates, so you could ignore the hash function used.



              On the other hand, I wouldn't consider it secure for code signing. You are probably using external libraries, so a third party could have prepared a library that, when compiled, allowed it to replace a block of code with a malicious one that collides with it.



              Please note that although in some specific cases a "broken hash" may work, given that we have perfectly fine non-broken hash functions, that don't need such careful detail, it is much better to use them when possible.



              And finally, do remember attacks only get worse with time. The security margin of that function is much severed than of collision resistant ones. An attack that one day seemed unfeasible, or a hash function that was "only" not collision-resistant, not-too-long after may be further broken with a new discovery, forcing you to need to change it real quick.






              share|improve this answer



























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                3 Answers
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                3 Answers
                3






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                active

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                active

                oldest

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                4















                Digital signatures are designed to do three things:



                1. Ensure the integrity of the data that has been signed

                2. Create some degree of non-repudiation by the signer

                3. The purpose you mentioned, which is to authenticate the origin of the message

                The biggest issue with hash functions that are susceptible to collisions is that you very quickly lose the first design goal. If two different messages can have the same signature, then you can't know which are genuine.



                So, what's the big deal if I can sign two different messages with the same signature? You still know they both came from me and can hold me accountable, right? Well, perhaps. There are certainly some cases where this can be abused, but we're going to ignore them because they aren't the real issue. The real issue is where you can craft two messages that will have the same signature and the submit one of the for someone else to sign.



                The canonical example here is a x.509 (SSL/TLS) certificate request. In this case, a poorly designed certificate signing process can be leveraged to induce a Certificate Authority to sign a certificate for one subject or with one set of properties (like an end-entity certificate), only to have the signature collide with the signature for a second certificate also generated by the attackers that would not have been issued for a subject the attackers don't control, or a CA cert, and that rouge cert can now benefit from the perfectly valid signature associated with first, benign certificate.






                share|improve this answer





























                  4















                  Digital signatures are designed to do three things:



                  1. Ensure the integrity of the data that has been signed

                  2. Create some degree of non-repudiation by the signer

                  3. The purpose you mentioned, which is to authenticate the origin of the message

                  The biggest issue with hash functions that are susceptible to collisions is that you very quickly lose the first design goal. If two different messages can have the same signature, then you can't know which are genuine.



                  So, what's the big deal if I can sign two different messages with the same signature? You still know they both came from me and can hold me accountable, right? Well, perhaps. There are certainly some cases where this can be abused, but we're going to ignore them because they aren't the real issue. The real issue is where you can craft two messages that will have the same signature and the submit one of the for someone else to sign.



                  The canonical example here is a x.509 (SSL/TLS) certificate request. In this case, a poorly designed certificate signing process can be leveraged to induce a Certificate Authority to sign a certificate for one subject or with one set of properties (like an end-entity certificate), only to have the signature collide with the signature for a second certificate also generated by the attackers that would not have been issued for a subject the attackers don't control, or a CA cert, and that rouge cert can now benefit from the perfectly valid signature associated with first, benign certificate.






                  share|improve this answer



























                    4














                    4










                    4









                    Digital signatures are designed to do three things:



                    1. Ensure the integrity of the data that has been signed

                    2. Create some degree of non-repudiation by the signer

                    3. The purpose you mentioned, which is to authenticate the origin of the message

                    The biggest issue with hash functions that are susceptible to collisions is that you very quickly lose the first design goal. If two different messages can have the same signature, then you can't know which are genuine.



                    So, what's the big deal if I can sign two different messages with the same signature? You still know they both came from me and can hold me accountable, right? Well, perhaps. There are certainly some cases where this can be abused, but we're going to ignore them because they aren't the real issue. The real issue is where you can craft two messages that will have the same signature and the submit one of the for someone else to sign.



                    The canonical example here is a x.509 (SSL/TLS) certificate request. In this case, a poorly designed certificate signing process can be leveraged to induce a Certificate Authority to sign a certificate for one subject or with one set of properties (like an end-entity certificate), only to have the signature collide with the signature for a second certificate also generated by the attackers that would not have been issued for a subject the attackers don't control, or a CA cert, and that rouge cert can now benefit from the perfectly valid signature associated with first, benign certificate.






                    share|improve this answer













                    Digital signatures are designed to do three things:



                    1. Ensure the integrity of the data that has been signed

                    2. Create some degree of non-repudiation by the signer

                    3. The purpose you mentioned, which is to authenticate the origin of the message

                    The biggest issue with hash functions that are susceptible to collisions is that you very quickly lose the first design goal. If two different messages can have the same signature, then you can't know which are genuine.



                    So, what's the big deal if I can sign two different messages with the same signature? You still know they both came from me and can hold me accountable, right? Well, perhaps. There are certainly some cases where this can be abused, but we're going to ignore them because they aren't the real issue. The real issue is where you can craft two messages that will have the same signature and the submit one of the for someone else to sign.



                    The canonical example here is a x.509 (SSL/TLS) certificate request. In this case, a poorly designed certificate signing process can be leveraged to induce a Certificate Authority to sign a certificate for one subject or with one set of properties (like an end-entity certificate), only to have the signature collide with the signature for a second certificate also generated by the attackers that would not have been issued for a subject the attackers don't control, or a CA cert, and that rouge cert can now benefit from the perfectly valid signature associated with first, benign certificate.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 8 hours ago









                    XanderXander

                    33.8k12 gold badges102 silver badges128 bronze badges




                    33.8k12 gold badges102 silver badges128 bronze badges


























                        3















                        Xander's answer is fundamentally correct: the issue is getting someone else to sign a benign message and use the signature for the malicious one. It is worth noting that although when you make a collision you don't get to decide on the messages directly, you often do get to decide on part of the message. For example I couldn't persuade you to sign "My name is KOLANICH" and swap it for "My name is Josiah": the hashes are vanishingly unlikely to match. However I might be able to get you to sign "Please pay account number X $50 for shoes with reference code ZZZZZZZZZZ." and then replace it with "Please pay account number X $50000 with reference code YYYYYYYYYY." In this scenario I choose whichever Y and Z I need to get the collision.



                        An additional reason that they are considered insecure is a canary in a coal mine situation. It is easier to find a collision than to find a second preimage; strictly so because if you had a second preimage attack you automatically have a collision, but not vice versa. However, even though having a technique for finding a collision doesn't directly give you second preimages, it does suggest that there is some regularity to the hash function that is likely to surface vulnerabilities which would with further research allow finding preimages.






                        share|improve this answer































                          3















                          Xander's answer is fundamentally correct: the issue is getting someone else to sign a benign message and use the signature for the malicious one. It is worth noting that although when you make a collision you don't get to decide on the messages directly, you often do get to decide on part of the message. For example I couldn't persuade you to sign "My name is KOLANICH" and swap it for "My name is Josiah": the hashes are vanishingly unlikely to match. However I might be able to get you to sign "Please pay account number X $50 for shoes with reference code ZZZZZZZZZZ." and then replace it with "Please pay account number X $50000 with reference code YYYYYYYYYY." In this scenario I choose whichever Y and Z I need to get the collision.



                          An additional reason that they are considered insecure is a canary in a coal mine situation. It is easier to find a collision than to find a second preimage; strictly so because if you had a second preimage attack you automatically have a collision, but not vice versa. However, even though having a technique for finding a collision doesn't directly give you second preimages, it does suggest that there is some regularity to the hash function that is likely to surface vulnerabilities which would with further research allow finding preimages.






                          share|improve this answer





























                            3














                            3










                            3









                            Xander's answer is fundamentally correct: the issue is getting someone else to sign a benign message and use the signature for the malicious one. It is worth noting that although when you make a collision you don't get to decide on the messages directly, you often do get to decide on part of the message. For example I couldn't persuade you to sign "My name is KOLANICH" and swap it for "My name is Josiah": the hashes are vanishingly unlikely to match. However I might be able to get you to sign "Please pay account number X $50 for shoes with reference code ZZZZZZZZZZ." and then replace it with "Please pay account number X $50000 with reference code YYYYYYYYYY." In this scenario I choose whichever Y and Z I need to get the collision.



                            An additional reason that they are considered insecure is a canary in a coal mine situation. It is easier to find a collision than to find a second preimage; strictly so because if you had a second preimage attack you automatically have a collision, but not vice versa. However, even though having a technique for finding a collision doesn't directly give you second preimages, it does suggest that there is some regularity to the hash function that is likely to surface vulnerabilities which would with further research allow finding preimages.






                            share|improve this answer















                            Xander's answer is fundamentally correct: the issue is getting someone else to sign a benign message and use the signature for the malicious one. It is worth noting that although when you make a collision you don't get to decide on the messages directly, you often do get to decide on part of the message. For example I couldn't persuade you to sign "My name is KOLANICH" and swap it for "My name is Josiah": the hashes are vanishingly unlikely to match. However I might be able to get you to sign "Please pay account number X $50 for shoes with reference code ZZZZZZZZZZ." and then replace it with "Please pay account number X $50000 with reference code YYYYYYYYYY." In this scenario I choose whichever Y and Z I need to get the collision.



                            An additional reason that they are considered insecure is a canary in a coal mine situation. It is easier to find a collision than to find a second preimage; strictly so because if you had a second preimage attack you automatically have a collision, but not vice versa. However, even though having a technique for finding a collision doesn't directly give you second preimages, it does suggest that there is some regularity to the hash function that is likely to surface vulnerabilities which would with further research allow finding preimages.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 6 hours ago

























                            answered 7 hours ago









                            JosiahJosiah

                            9505 silver badges11 bronze badges




                            9505 silver badges11 bronze badges
























                                0















                                Well, in theory you would be right. In some very specific cases those hashes would not be completely broken.



                                However, you would need to be extra cautious, and supposedly some "self-generated" data could actually be insecure. Would you consider the check's written by the accountant to be self-generated by the accountant? Apparently yes, but it actually contains externally controlled data that could be used to produce a signature of a different content.




                                So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?




                                You don't really verify self-signed certificates, so you could ignore the hash function used.



                                On the other hand, I wouldn't consider it secure for code signing. You are probably using external libraries, so a third party could have prepared a library that, when compiled, allowed it to replace a block of code with a malicious one that collides with it.



                                Please note that although in some specific cases a "broken hash" may work, given that we have perfectly fine non-broken hash functions, that don't need such careful detail, it is much better to use them when possible.



                                And finally, do remember attacks only get worse with time. The security margin of that function is much severed than of collision resistant ones. An attack that one day seemed unfeasible, or a hash function that was "only" not collision-resistant, not-too-long after may be further broken with a new discovery, forcing you to need to change it real quick.






                                share|improve this answer





























                                  0















                                  Well, in theory you would be right. In some very specific cases those hashes would not be completely broken.



                                  However, you would need to be extra cautious, and supposedly some "self-generated" data could actually be insecure. Would you consider the check's written by the accountant to be self-generated by the accountant? Apparently yes, but it actually contains externally controlled data that could be used to produce a signature of a different content.




                                  So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?




                                  You don't really verify self-signed certificates, so you could ignore the hash function used.



                                  On the other hand, I wouldn't consider it secure for code signing. You are probably using external libraries, so a third party could have prepared a library that, when compiled, allowed it to replace a block of code with a malicious one that collides with it.



                                  Please note that although in some specific cases a "broken hash" may work, given that we have perfectly fine non-broken hash functions, that don't need such careful detail, it is much better to use them when possible.



                                  And finally, do remember attacks only get worse with time. The security margin of that function is much severed than of collision resistant ones. An attack that one day seemed unfeasible, or a hash function that was "only" not collision-resistant, not-too-long after may be further broken with a new discovery, forcing you to need to change it real quick.






                                  share|improve this answer



























                                    0














                                    0










                                    0









                                    Well, in theory you would be right. In some very specific cases those hashes would not be completely broken.



                                    However, you would need to be extra cautious, and supposedly some "self-generated" data could actually be insecure. Would you consider the check's written by the accountant to be self-generated by the accountant? Apparently yes, but it actually contains externally controlled data that could be used to produce a signature of a different content.




                                    So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?




                                    You don't really verify self-signed certificates, so you could ignore the hash function used.



                                    On the other hand, I wouldn't consider it secure for code signing. You are probably using external libraries, so a third party could have prepared a library that, when compiled, allowed it to replace a block of code with a malicious one that collides with it.



                                    Please note that although in some specific cases a "broken hash" may work, given that we have perfectly fine non-broken hash functions, that don't need such careful detail, it is much better to use them when possible.



                                    And finally, do remember attacks only get worse with time. The security margin of that function is much severed than of collision resistant ones. An attack that one day seemed unfeasible, or a hash function that was "only" not collision-resistant, not-too-long after may be further broken with a new discovery, forcing you to need to change it real quick.






                                    share|improve this answer













                                    Well, in theory you would be right. In some very specific cases those hashes would not be completely broken.



                                    However, you would need to be extra cautious, and supposedly some "self-generated" data could actually be insecure. Would you consider the check's written by the accountant to be self-generated by the accountant? Apparently yes, but it actually contains externally controlled data that could be used to produce a signature of a different content.




                                    So should such hash functions be considered secure for things like self-signed certificates and code signing?




                                    You don't really verify self-signed certificates, so you could ignore the hash function used.



                                    On the other hand, I wouldn't consider it secure for code signing. You are probably using external libraries, so a third party could have prepared a library that, when compiled, allowed it to replace a block of code with a malicious one that collides with it.



                                    Please note that although in some specific cases a "broken hash" may work, given that we have perfectly fine non-broken hash functions, that don't need such careful detail, it is much better to use them when possible.



                                    And finally, do remember attacks only get worse with time. The security margin of that function is much severed than of collision resistant ones. An attack that one day seemed unfeasible, or a hash function that was "only" not collision-resistant, not-too-long after may be further broken with a new discovery, forcing you to need to change it real quick.







                                    share|improve this answer












                                    share|improve this answer



                                    share|improve this answer










                                    answered 2 hours ago









                                    ÁngelÁngel

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