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Gödel's paradox: Why is “a proof that some universal statement is unprovable” not a valid proof that this statement is true?
Is a Gödel sentence logically valid?Gödel's incompleteness theorem can't be proven?Is there a reasonably strong foundation for mathematics that can prove its own consistency?What is a simple example of an unprovable statement?provability of a mathematical statementA few questions about a true but unprovable statementInformal proof of Godel's second incompleteness theoremGödel's incompleteness theorem: if the statement is unprovable then how did we prove its true?Mistake in Wikipedia article on complete theory?With this definition of completeness, Gödel's Incompleteness result seems not surprising, so why it was back then?
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Here is a paradox I have some difficulty resolving:
As far as I understand, by one of Gödel's incompleteness theorems, in a first order logic theory with Peano arithmetic, one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Consider such an unprovable universal statement of the form "For all x, P(x)". We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement, exactly because finding such a counter example would disprove the statement hence contradicting Gödel's theorem which said that this statement can not be proven nor disproven. Therefore the given statement must be true.
As one can observe, my previous paragraph is a valid sequence of arguments that explain why my considered universal statement must be true. This previous paragraph is, by the very definition of proof, a proof of the given statement. My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent :)
What is wrong with my reasoning ? Can you explain why the second paragraph would not be a valid proof? Does it have something to do with metalanguage? Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
logic foundations provability
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add a comment |
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Here is a paradox I have some difficulty resolving:
As far as I understand, by one of Gödel's incompleteness theorems, in a first order logic theory with Peano arithmetic, one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Consider such an unprovable universal statement of the form "For all x, P(x)". We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement, exactly because finding such a counter example would disprove the statement hence contradicting Gödel's theorem which said that this statement can not be proven nor disproven. Therefore the given statement must be true.
As one can observe, my previous paragraph is a valid sequence of arguments that explain why my considered universal statement must be true. This previous paragraph is, by the very definition of proof, a proof of the given statement. My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent :)
What is wrong with my reasoning ? Can you explain why the second paragraph would not be a valid proof? Does it have something to do with metalanguage? Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
logic foundations provability
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I'm not certain that your paragraph can be phrased within the language in question. You're looking at your logic theory from the outside-in, and when doing that you can prove things about it that it couldn't prove about itself. At least, I suspect that that's what's happening here. This is not a field where I'm very proficient.
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– Arthur
8 hours ago
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Yes I thought the same, but I don't see why I couldn't reiterate the same proof in such a theory that would be powerful enough to encode the metalanguage of my argument.
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– J. M.
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here is a paradox I have some difficulty resolving:
As far as I understand, by one of Gödel's incompleteness theorems, in a first order logic theory with Peano arithmetic, one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Consider such an unprovable universal statement of the form "For all x, P(x)". We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement, exactly because finding such a counter example would disprove the statement hence contradicting Gödel's theorem which said that this statement can not be proven nor disproven. Therefore the given statement must be true.
As one can observe, my previous paragraph is a valid sequence of arguments that explain why my considered universal statement must be true. This previous paragraph is, by the very definition of proof, a proof of the given statement. My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent :)
What is wrong with my reasoning ? Can you explain why the second paragraph would not be a valid proof? Does it have something to do with metalanguage? Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
logic foundations provability
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Here is a paradox I have some difficulty resolving:
As far as I understand, by one of Gödel's incompleteness theorems, in a first order logic theory with Peano arithmetic, one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Consider such an unprovable universal statement of the form "For all x, P(x)". We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement, exactly because finding such a counter example would disprove the statement hence contradicting Gödel's theorem which said that this statement can not be proven nor disproven. Therefore the given statement must be true.
As one can observe, my previous paragraph is a valid sequence of arguments that explain why my considered universal statement must be true. This previous paragraph is, by the very definition of proof, a proof of the given statement. My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent :)
What is wrong with my reasoning ? Can you explain why the second paragraph would not be a valid proof? Does it have something to do with metalanguage? Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
logic foundations provability
logic foundations provability
edited 8 hours ago
J. M.
asked 8 hours ago
J. M.J. M.
314 bronze badges
314 bronze badges
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I'm not certain that your paragraph can be phrased within the language in question. You're looking at your logic theory from the outside-in, and when doing that you can prove things about it that it couldn't prove about itself. At least, I suspect that that's what's happening here. This is not a field where I'm very proficient.
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– Arthur
8 hours ago
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Yes I thought the same, but I don't see why I couldn't reiterate the same proof in such a theory that would be powerful enough to encode the metalanguage of my argument.
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– J. M.
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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I'm not certain that your paragraph can be phrased within the language in question. You're looking at your logic theory from the outside-in, and when doing that you can prove things about it that it couldn't prove about itself. At least, I suspect that that's what's happening here. This is not a field where I'm very proficient.
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– Arthur
8 hours ago
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Yes I thought the same, but I don't see why I couldn't reiterate the same proof in such a theory that would be powerful enough to encode the metalanguage of my argument.
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– J. M.
8 hours ago
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I'm not certain that your paragraph can be phrased within the language in question. You're looking at your logic theory from the outside-in, and when doing that you can prove things about it that it couldn't prove about itself. At least, I suspect that that's what's happening here. This is not a field where I'm very proficient.
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– Arthur
8 hours ago
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I'm not certain that your paragraph can be phrased within the language in question. You're looking at your logic theory from the outside-in, and when doing that you can prove things about it that it couldn't prove about itself. At least, I suspect that that's what's happening here. This is not a field where I'm very proficient.
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– Arthur
8 hours ago
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Yes I thought the same, but I don't see why I couldn't reiterate the same proof in such a theory that would be powerful enough to encode the metalanguage of my argument.
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– J. M.
8 hours ago
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Yes I thought the same, but I don't see why I couldn't reiterate the same proof in such a theory that would be powerful enough to encode the metalanguage of my argument.
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– J. M.
8 hours ago
add a comment |
6 Answers
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The thing you're missing is that "true" and "false" are always relative to a model, but in arithmetic they are relative to the standard model, unless stated otherwise.
Now, if there is a counterexample to a $Pi_1$ statement, then it is a witness to its negation, a $Sigma_1$ statement. But here's the thing, $sf PA$ is $Sigma_1$-complete: every $Sigma_1$ statement which is true in $Bbb N$ is in fact provable from $sf PA$.
Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$).
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"Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$)." How is that what you just said not a proof by itself of $forall xvarphi(x)$ ? Thats my whole question here. Its a valid sequence of human language arguments that end up concluding the truth of the sentence.
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– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
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It's not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$. It is a proof that $Bbb Nmodelsforall xvarphi(x)$. Since if there was $n$ such that $Bbb Nmodelslnotvarphi[n]$, then $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is a true $Sigma_1$ sentence which is therefore provable from $sf PA$, so $forall xvarphi(x)$ is disprovable. But we know that it is not disprovable.
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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I think you are putting the finger on the problem. Do you think you could include that in your answer and explain it in more thorough details so that someone unfamiliar with these matters could understand? I believe understanding this paradox is essential to understand incompleteness.
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– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
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Sure, but can you be more explicit regarding to what part? I'm pretty sure all of the things I've left out have been thoroughly covered in the past by more competent writers on this topic, so at the very least, if you focus the problem I can write a bit and find a link.
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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I was referring to your second comment. I would like to understand clearly why as you said it is not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$ . Imagine you are not familiar with this field. Its not at all obvious why what I said would be wrong. Now maybe there is probably a philosophical problem going on here. Perhaps the standard ways of modeling mathematics rules and axioms, and modeling truth artificially made my argument invalid, and godels incompleteness theorem true. Perhaps if we modeled mathematics fundamental concepts in another way, my argument would hold. Who knows?
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– J. M.
7 hours ago
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show 9 more comments
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Some statements couldn't be refuted by presenting a counterexample, because that counterexample would itself be a universal claim. A counterexample to "all men are mortal" would be "nothing can kill Bob". In mathematics, it would be more like, "for any $xin S$, there is some $yin T$ such that..."
Let's discuss a concrete example. Write your favourite positive integer as a sum of powers of two, where the exponents are written in the same format etc. so no number $>2$ appears, e.g. $37$ becomes $2^2^2+1+2^2+1$. Now replace every $2$ with a $3$ and subtract one, viz. $3^3^3+1+3^3$. Now repeat moving $3$s to $4$s, viz. $4^4^4+1+3times 4^3+3times 4^2+3times 4+3$. The numbers grow very fast at first, but it can be shown in ZF, a version of set theory, that eventually you'll get to $0$. On the other hand, it can also be shown that the Peano axioms, the weakest system Gödel considered in his incompleteness theorems, can't prove this result.
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Thats why I assumed that the structure of the statement I am considering in my post is "for all x such that P(x)", there must be such unprovable statement, because given any unprovable statement, both itself and its negation are unprovable, if its closed it starts with for all/there exists, so either itself or its negation starts with a for all.
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– J. M.
8 hours ago
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@J.M. You just have the wrong kind of statement in mind if you're looking to understand example of incompleteness. Fermat's last theorem, had it been false, would have been decidable, since a counterexample could then be presented. This was why mathematicians knew, with your reasoning, that if it were undecidable they'd never even be able to prove that. But this only works because the claim takes the right form for falsity to imply decidability.
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– J.G.
8 hours ago
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I'm not sure why you are saying I am wrong. I am just making an assumption. Do you think my assumption is false? why do you think so? I believe there are unprovable statement of the form "for all x, P(x)". Unfortunately I don't really understand your point, or how it disproves what I said. Its not detailed enough for me. I'm not that familiar with foundations.
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– J. M.
8 hours ago
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This doesn't seem to at all address the question being asked. And even if it did, someone having trouble with GIT isn't going to even remotely understand Goodstein's theorem.
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– DanielV
5 hours ago
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What one can prove, in PA (and in fact in even weaker arithmetical theories than that) via a careful version of the argument you give is "If PA is consistent, then there is a statement $G$ such that $G$ holds and PA cannot prove $G$." If PA could prove its own consistency, then it would prove both $G$ and that PA cannot prove $G.$ Thus the latter is a false statement and PA is unsound. Thus if PA is sound, then it cannot prove its own consistency. This is essentially a proof of (a weak form of) the second incompleteness theorem from the first.
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I think this is not about this particular example, but rather about the underlying idea of "Independent $Pi_1$ is true".
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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@AsafKaragila But my point is that we can formalize all that in PA. $Con(PA)to Gland lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ is a theorem of PA, and the reasoning within PA that $G$ follows from $Con(PA)$ is exactly that a witness to $lnot G$ would allow a PA proof of $Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ which contradicts $lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ (which holds, and produces a contradiction under the assumption of $Con(PA)$). So OP is right that the argument works in a PA metatheory, they just forgot about the consistency part (and are confused about the metatheory part).
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– spaceisdarkgreen
6 hours ago
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one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Specifically, given a logic $L_1$, you can construct (algorithmically) a statement $P(x)$ such that there is a proof of $P(0)$ and there is a proof of $P(1)$ and there is a proof of $P(2)$, etc, but there is no proof of $forall k~P(k)$ (and all of that assumes consistency).
We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement
We have not formally proved this. There is no formal proof in $L_1$ that $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$. To show $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$, we actually need to use the assumption that $P(k)$ represents the statement "$k text is not a proof of G$" (for a specially chosen $G$). But that assumption isn't actually provable in $L_1$, it is just something we know to be true because it was designed that way.
My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent
Godel wasn't wrong, nor is the logic the theorem deals with. The logic is just incomplete. And more importantly, it is incompletable.
Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
Yes, and there is huge branch of logic that deals with this approach. It is called provability logic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-provability/ . But, even after you encode all the outer logic and use it as your new logic, then you've just created a new logic $L_2$, from which a new $P$ can be algorithmically constructed. No matter how much "meta" you keep adding, a new $P$ can be created.
I suggest reading through https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/ , it is an absolutely fantastic reference for Godel's first incompleteness theorem (but an unfortunately deficient reference for the second, that requires a bit more framework than the article presents).
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Thanks for this detailed analysis, I should have use more caution indeed and not say that we have proven that there are no counter examples. Just that the fact that there are no counter examples is true.
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– J. M.
5 hours ago
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I think people here understand the flaw in my argument so I will try to make it sound simple. To try to sum it up, I think the problem with my second paragraph, was that although it is indeed a proof of the universal statement, it is a proof assuming the statement itself, rather than just the principles of the implicit theory. It is perfectly circular in its form, it does not mean that the theory proves the statement. Just that the statement proves itself by virtue of it being true.
As one can notice "proof" is a relative notion. Unlike what I failed to realize early enough, one should always make the mental effort to ask oneself: proven with respect to what?
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It's easy to throw a pebble into a well, but it takes sophistication to remove it.
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– Asaf Karagila♦
5 hours ago
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This is very wrong. Neither GIT nor Godel's sentence is a circular claim that assumes itself to be true. If you are actually interested in the subject then you are going to have to do the hard work of learning the proof of GIT. There is no royal road to geometry.
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– DanielV
4 hours ago
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I think there is some misunderstanding. In this answer I am referring to my own claim "Consider such an unprovable universal statement [...] Therefore the given statement must be true.". What I meant by this whole paragraph actually, is that "For all x, P(x)" is a proof of "For all x, P(x)". I just initially said that it was "a proof" period. I failed to notice that it was under the assumption of "For all x, P(x)" itself
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– J. M.
4 hours ago
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It's really a dumb mistake and I'm considering deleting my question. But its funny to watch all these experts arguing on the various possible interpretations of my post.
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– J. M.
4 hours ago
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The key step in your argument is when you say that if there is a counterexample to $forall x.P(x)$, then the theory $T$ we speak about can prove that it is in fact a counterexample.
The particular form of $P(x)$ that comes out of Gödel's construction has the property that whenever we have a particular numeral $bar n$, then the formula $P(bar n)$ will always be true, and $T$ proves it to be true.
However, the does not constitute a proof of $forall x.P(x)$. To think it does invokes a hidden assumption that everything our $forall x$ ranges over can be expressed as a numeral. For sure this is true about our intended interpretation of $T$ as the "actual natural numbers", but in order for $T$ to prove something it needs not only to be true in the intended interpretation, but also in every other interpretation that satisfies the axioms of $T$.
Here the reasoning runs into trouble, because we know that $T$ must have some models where some of the elements don't correspond to numerals. (This is so independently of the incompleteness theorem; the "usual compactness argument" shows that such a model must exist for any theory that can speak about the naturals). Therefore, the known fact that $P$ is true and provable about all numerals doesn't imply that $forall x.P(x)$ is true in all models, and therefore we can't conclude that it ought to be provable. And so the entire argument falls apart.
Gödel's notion of an "$omega$-consistent" theory requires that there is no formula $varphi(x)$ such that $T$ both proves $varphi(bar n)$ about every numeral, and proves $exists x.negvarphi(x)$ which is the same as $neg forall x.varphi(x)$. One way to show that a $T$ is $omega$-consistent is to show that it has some model where all elements are numerals; interpreted in such a model the Gödel sentence will be true. The original incompleteness proof explicitly assumed that $T$ is $omega$-consistent and used that to argue that $T$ cannot prove $negforall x.P(x)$. Later, Rosser found a way to avoid this assumption and instead just assume that $T$ is consistent.
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6 Answers
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The thing you're missing is that "true" and "false" are always relative to a model, but in arithmetic they are relative to the standard model, unless stated otherwise.
Now, if there is a counterexample to a $Pi_1$ statement, then it is a witness to its negation, a $Sigma_1$ statement. But here's the thing, $sf PA$ is $Sigma_1$-complete: every $Sigma_1$ statement which is true in $Bbb N$ is in fact provable from $sf PA$.
Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$).
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"Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$)." How is that what you just said not a proof by itself of $forall xvarphi(x)$ ? Thats my whole question here. Its a valid sequence of human language arguments that end up concluding the truth of the sentence.
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– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
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It's not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$. It is a proof that $Bbb Nmodelsforall xvarphi(x)$. Since if there was $n$ such that $Bbb Nmodelslnotvarphi[n]$, then $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is a true $Sigma_1$ sentence which is therefore provable from $sf PA$, so $forall xvarphi(x)$ is disprovable. But we know that it is not disprovable.
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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I think you are putting the finger on the problem. Do you think you could include that in your answer and explain it in more thorough details so that someone unfamiliar with these matters could understand? I believe understanding this paradox is essential to understand incompleteness.
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– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
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Sure, but can you be more explicit regarding to what part? I'm pretty sure all of the things I've left out have been thoroughly covered in the past by more competent writers on this topic, so at the very least, if you focus the problem I can write a bit and find a link.
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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I was referring to your second comment. I would like to understand clearly why as you said it is not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$ . Imagine you are not familiar with this field. Its not at all obvious why what I said would be wrong. Now maybe there is probably a philosophical problem going on here. Perhaps the standard ways of modeling mathematics rules and axioms, and modeling truth artificially made my argument invalid, and godels incompleteness theorem true. Perhaps if we modeled mathematics fundamental concepts in another way, my argument would hold. Who knows?
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– J. M.
7 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
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The thing you're missing is that "true" and "false" are always relative to a model, but in arithmetic they are relative to the standard model, unless stated otherwise.
Now, if there is a counterexample to a $Pi_1$ statement, then it is a witness to its negation, a $Sigma_1$ statement. But here's the thing, $sf PA$ is $Sigma_1$-complete: every $Sigma_1$ statement which is true in $Bbb N$ is in fact provable from $sf PA$.
Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$).
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"Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$)." How is that what you just said not a proof by itself of $forall xvarphi(x)$ ? Thats my whole question here. Its a valid sequence of human language arguments that end up concluding the truth of the sentence.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
It's not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$. It is a proof that $Bbb Nmodelsforall xvarphi(x)$. Since if there was $n$ such that $Bbb Nmodelslnotvarphi[n]$, then $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is a true $Sigma_1$ sentence which is therefore provable from $sf PA$, so $forall xvarphi(x)$ is disprovable. But we know that it is not disprovable.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think you are putting the finger on the problem. Do you think you could include that in your answer and explain it in more thorough details so that someone unfamiliar with these matters could understand? I believe understanding this paradox is essential to understand incompleteness.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Sure, but can you be more explicit regarding to what part? I'm pretty sure all of the things I've left out have been thoroughly covered in the past by more competent writers on this topic, so at the very least, if you focus the problem I can write a bit and find a link.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I was referring to your second comment. I would like to understand clearly why as you said it is not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$ . Imagine you are not familiar with this field. Its not at all obvious why what I said would be wrong. Now maybe there is probably a philosophical problem going on here. Perhaps the standard ways of modeling mathematics rules and axioms, and modeling truth artificially made my argument invalid, and godels incompleteness theorem true. Perhaps if we modeled mathematics fundamental concepts in another way, my argument would hold. Who knows?
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
The thing you're missing is that "true" and "false" are always relative to a model, but in arithmetic they are relative to the standard model, unless stated otherwise.
Now, if there is a counterexample to a $Pi_1$ statement, then it is a witness to its negation, a $Sigma_1$ statement. But here's the thing, $sf PA$ is $Sigma_1$-complete: every $Sigma_1$ statement which is true in $Bbb N$ is in fact provable from $sf PA$.
Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$).
$endgroup$
The thing you're missing is that "true" and "false" are always relative to a model, but in arithmetic they are relative to the standard model, unless stated otherwise.
Now, if there is a counterexample to a $Pi_1$ statement, then it is a witness to its negation, a $Sigma_1$ statement. But here's the thing, $sf PA$ is $Sigma_1$-complete: every $Sigma_1$ statement which is true in $Bbb N$ is in fact provable from $sf PA$.
Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$).
answered 7 hours ago
Asaf Karagila♦Asaf Karagila
315k34 gold badges453 silver badges787 bronze badges
315k34 gold badges453 silver badges787 bronze badges
$begingroup$
"Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$)." How is that what you just said not a proof by itself of $forall xvarphi(x)$ ? Thats my whole question here. Its a valid sequence of human language arguments that end up concluding the truth of the sentence.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
It's not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$. It is a proof that $Bbb Nmodelsforall xvarphi(x)$. Since if there was $n$ such that $Bbb Nmodelslnotvarphi[n]$, then $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is a true $Sigma_1$ sentence which is therefore provable from $sf PA$, so $forall xvarphi(x)$ is disprovable. But we know that it is not disprovable.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think you are putting the finger on the problem. Do you think you could include that in your answer and explain it in more thorough details so that someone unfamiliar with these matters could understand? I believe understanding this paradox is essential to understand incompleteness.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Sure, but can you be more explicit regarding to what part? I'm pretty sure all of the things I've left out have been thoroughly covered in the past by more competent writers on this topic, so at the very least, if you focus the problem I can write a bit and find a link.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I was referring to your second comment. I would like to understand clearly why as you said it is not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$ . Imagine you are not familiar with this field. Its not at all obvious why what I said would be wrong. Now maybe there is probably a philosophical problem going on here. Perhaps the standard ways of modeling mathematics rules and axioms, and modeling truth artificially made my argument invalid, and godels incompleteness theorem true. Perhaps if we modeled mathematics fundamental concepts in another way, my argument would hold. Who knows?
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
"Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$)." How is that what you just said not a proof by itself of $forall xvarphi(x)$ ? Thats my whole question here. Its a valid sequence of human language arguments that end up concluding the truth of the sentence.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
It's not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$. It is a proof that $Bbb Nmodelsforall xvarphi(x)$. Since if there was $n$ such that $Bbb Nmodelslnotvarphi[n]$, then $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is a true $Sigma_1$ sentence which is therefore provable from $sf PA$, so $forall xvarphi(x)$ is disprovable. But we know that it is not disprovable.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think you are putting the finger on the problem. Do you think you could include that in your answer and explain it in more thorough details so that someone unfamiliar with these matters could understand? I believe understanding this paradox is essential to understand incompleteness.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Sure, but can you be more explicit regarding to what part? I'm pretty sure all of the things I've left out have been thoroughly covered in the past by more competent writers on this topic, so at the very least, if you focus the problem I can write a bit and find a link.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I was referring to your second comment. I would like to understand clearly why as you said it is not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$ . Imagine you are not familiar with this field. Its not at all obvious why what I said would be wrong. Now maybe there is probably a philosophical problem going on here. Perhaps the standard ways of modeling mathematics rules and axioms, and modeling truth artificially made my argument invalid, and godels incompleteness theorem true. Perhaps if we modeled mathematics fundamental concepts in another way, my argument would hold. Who knows?
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$)." How is that what you just said not a proof by itself of $forall xvarphi(x)$ ? Thats my whole question here. Its a valid sequence of human language arguments that end up concluding the truth of the sentence.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Now, if $forall xvarphi(x)$ is a $Pi_1$ statement which is neither provable nor disprovable from $sf PA$, that means that it is necessarily the case that $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is false (in $Bbb N$), otherwise, it would be provable. Therefore $forall xvarphi(x)$ is true (in $Bbb N$)." How is that what you just said not a proof by itself of $forall xvarphi(x)$ ? Thats my whole question here. Its a valid sequence of human language arguments that end up concluding the truth of the sentence.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
It's not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$. It is a proof that $Bbb Nmodelsforall xvarphi(x)$. Since if there was $n$ such that $Bbb Nmodelslnotvarphi[n]$, then $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is a true $Sigma_1$ sentence which is therefore provable from $sf PA$, so $forall xvarphi(x)$ is disprovable. But we know that it is not disprovable.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$. It is a proof that $Bbb Nmodelsforall xvarphi(x)$. Since if there was $n$ such that $Bbb Nmodelslnotvarphi[n]$, then $exists xlnotvarphi(x)$ is a true $Sigma_1$ sentence which is therefore provable from $sf PA$, so $forall xvarphi(x)$ is disprovable. But we know that it is not disprovable.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think you are putting the finger on the problem. Do you think you could include that in your answer and explain it in more thorough details so that someone unfamiliar with these matters could understand? I believe understanding this paradox is essential to understand incompleteness.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think you are putting the finger on the problem. Do you think you could include that in your answer and explain it in more thorough details so that someone unfamiliar with these matters could understand? I believe understanding this paradox is essential to understand incompleteness.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Sure, but can you be more explicit regarding to what part? I'm pretty sure all of the things I've left out have been thoroughly covered in the past by more competent writers on this topic, so at the very least, if you focus the problem I can write a bit and find a link.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Sure, but can you be more explicit regarding to what part? I'm pretty sure all of the things I've left out have been thoroughly covered in the past by more competent writers on this topic, so at the very least, if you focus the problem I can write a bit and find a link.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I was referring to your second comment. I would like to understand clearly why as you said it is not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$ . Imagine you are not familiar with this field. Its not at all obvious why what I said would be wrong. Now maybe there is probably a philosophical problem going on here. Perhaps the standard ways of modeling mathematics rules and axioms, and modeling truth artificially made my argument invalid, and godels incompleteness theorem true. Perhaps if we modeled mathematics fundamental concepts in another way, my argument would hold. Who knows?
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I was referring to your second comment. I would like to understand clearly why as you said it is not a proof of $forall xvarphi(x)$ . Imagine you are not familiar with this field. Its not at all obvious why what I said would be wrong. Now maybe there is probably a philosophical problem going on here. Perhaps the standard ways of modeling mathematics rules and axioms, and modeling truth artificially made my argument invalid, and godels incompleteness theorem true. Perhaps if we modeled mathematics fundamental concepts in another way, my argument would hold. Who knows?
$endgroup$
– J. M.
7 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
Some statements couldn't be refuted by presenting a counterexample, because that counterexample would itself be a universal claim. A counterexample to "all men are mortal" would be "nothing can kill Bob". In mathematics, it would be more like, "for any $xin S$, there is some $yin T$ such that..."
Let's discuss a concrete example. Write your favourite positive integer as a sum of powers of two, where the exponents are written in the same format etc. so no number $>2$ appears, e.g. $37$ becomes $2^2^2+1+2^2+1$. Now replace every $2$ with a $3$ and subtract one, viz. $3^3^3+1+3^3$. Now repeat moving $3$s to $4$s, viz. $4^4^4+1+3times 4^3+3times 4^2+3times 4+3$. The numbers grow very fast at first, but it can be shown in ZF, a version of set theory, that eventually you'll get to $0$. On the other hand, it can also be shown that the Peano axioms, the weakest system Gödel considered in his incompleteness theorems, can't prove this result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thats why I assumed that the structure of the statement I am considering in my post is "for all x such that P(x)", there must be such unprovable statement, because given any unprovable statement, both itself and its negation are unprovable, if its closed it starts with for all/there exists, so either itself or its negation starts with a for all.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@J.M. You just have the wrong kind of statement in mind if you're looking to understand example of incompleteness. Fermat's last theorem, had it been false, would have been decidable, since a counterexample could then be presented. This was why mathematicians knew, with your reasoning, that if it were undecidable they'd never even be able to prove that. But this only works because the claim takes the right form for falsity to imply decidability.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm not sure why you are saying I am wrong. I am just making an assumption. Do you think my assumption is false? why do you think so? I believe there are unprovable statement of the form "for all x, P(x)". Unfortunately I don't really understand your point, or how it disproves what I said. Its not detailed enough for me. I'm not that familiar with foundations.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't seem to at all address the question being asked. And even if it did, someone having trouble with GIT isn't going to even remotely understand Goodstein's theorem.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Some statements couldn't be refuted by presenting a counterexample, because that counterexample would itself be a universal claim. A counterexample to "all men are mortal" would be "nothing can kill Bob". In mathematics, it would be more like, "for any $xin S$, there is some $yin T$ such that..."
Let's discuss a concrete example. Write your favourite positive integer as a sum of powers of two, where the exponents are written in the same format etc. so no number $>2$ appears, e.g. $37$ becomes $2^2^2+1+2^2+1$. Now replace every $2$ with a $3$ and subtract one, viz. $3^3^3+1+3^3$. Now repeat moving $3$s to $4$s, viz. $4^4^4+1+3times 4^3+3times 4^2+3times 4+3$. The numbers grow very fast at first, but it can be shown in ZF, a version of set theory, that eventually you'll get to $0$. On the other hand, it can also be shown that the Peano axioms, the weakest system Gödel considered in his incompleteness theorems, can't prove this result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thats why I assumed that the structure of the statement I am considering in my post is "for all x such that P(x)", there must be such unprovable statement, because given any unprovable statement, both itself and its negation are unprovable, if its closed it starts with for all/there exists, so either itself or its negation starts with a for all.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@J.M. You just have the wrong kind of statement in mind if you're looking to understand example of incompleteness. Fermat's last theorem, had it been false, would have been decidable, since a counterexample could then be presented. This was why mathematicians knew, with your reasoning, that if it were undecidable they'd never even be able to prove that. But this only works because the claim takes the right form for falsity to imply decidability.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm not sure why you are saying I am wrong. I am just making an assumption. Do you think my assumption is false? why do you think so? I believe there are unprovable statement of the form "for all x, P(x)". Unfortunately I don't really understand your point, or how it disproves what I said. Its not detailed enough for me. I'm not that familiar with foundations.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't seem to at all address the question being asked. And even if it did, someone having trouble with GIT isn't going to even remotely understand Goodstein's theorem.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Some statements couldn't be refuted by presenting a counterexample, because that counterexample would itself be a universal claim. A counterexample to "all men are mortal" would be "nothing can kill Bob". In mathematics, it would be more like, "for any $xin S$, there is some $yin T$ such that..."
Let's discuss a concrete example. Write your favourite positive integer as a sum of powers of two, where the exponents are written in the same format etc. so no number $>2$ appears, e.g. $37$ becomes $2^2^2+1+2^2+1$. Now replace every $2$ with a $3$ and subtract one, viz. $3^3^3+1+3^3$. Now repeat moving $3$s to $4$s, viz. $4^4^4+1+3times 4^3+3times 4^2+3times 4+3$. The numbers grow very fast at first, but it can be shown in ZF, a version of set theory, that eventually you'll get to $0$. On the other hand, it can also be shown that the Peano axioms, the weakest system Gödel considered in his incompleteness theorems, can't prove this result.
$endgroup$
Some statements couldn't be refuted by presenting a counterexample, because that counterexample would itself be a universal claim. A counterexample to "all men are mortal" would be "nothing can kill Bob". In mathematics, it would be more like, "for any $xin S$, there is some $yin T$ such that..."
Let's discuss a concrete example. Write your favourite positive integer as a sum of powers of two, where the exponents are written in the same format etc. so no number $>2$ appears, e.g. $37$ becomes $2^2^2+1+2^2+1$. Now replace every $2$ with a $3$ and subtract one, viz. $3^3^3+1+3^3$. Now repeat moving $3$s to $4$s, viz. $4^4^4+1+3times 4^3+3times 4^2+3times 4+3$. The numbers grow very fast at first, but it can be shown in ZF, a version of set theory, that eventually you'll get to $0$. On the other hand, it can also be shown that the Peano axioms, the weakest system Gödel considered in his incompleteness theorems, can't prove this result.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
J.G.J.G.
43.4k2 gold badges39 silver badges60 bronze badges
43.4k2 gold badges39 silver badges60 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Thats why I assumed that the structure of the statement I am considering in my post is "for all x such that P(x)", there must be such unprovable statement, because given any unprovable statement, both itself and its negation are unprovable, if its closed it starts with for all/there exists, so either itself or its negation starts with a for all.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@J.M. You just have the wrong kind of statement in mind if you're looking to understand example of incompleteness. Fermat's last theorem, had it been false, would have been decidable, since a counterexample could then be presented. This was why mathematicians knew, with your reasoning, that if it were undecidable they'd never even be able to prove that. But this only works because the claim takes the right form for falsity to imply decidability.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm not sure why you are saying I am wrong. I am just making an assumption. Do you think my assumption is false? why do you think so? I believe there are unprovable statement of the form "for all x, P(x)". Unfortunately I don't really understand your point, or how it disproves what I said. Its not detailed enough for me. I'm not that familiar with foundations.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't seem to at all address the question being asked. And even if it did, someone having trouble with GIT isn't going to even remotely understand Goodstein's theorem.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thats why I assumed that the structure of the statement I am considering in my post is "for all x such that P(x)", there must be such unprovable statement, because given any unprovable statement, both itself and its negation are unprovable, if its closed it starts with for all/there exists, so either itself or its negation starts with a for all.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@J.M. You just have the wrong kind of statement in mind if you're looking to understand example of incompleteness. Fermat's last theorem, had it been false, would have been decidable, since a counterexample could then be presented. This was why mathematicians knew, with your reasoning, that if it were undecidable they'd never even be able to prove that. But this only works because the claim takes the right form for falsity to imply decidability.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm not sure why you are saying I am wrong. I am just making an assumption. Do you think my assumption is false? why do you think so? I believe there are unprovable statement of the form "for all x, P(x)". Unfortunately I don't really understand your point, or how it disproves what I said. Its not detailed enough for me. I'm not that familiar with foundations.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't seem to at all address the question being asked. And even if it did, someone having trouble with GIT isn't going to even remotely understand Goodstein's theorem.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thats why I assumed that the structure of the statement I am considering in my post is "for all x such that P(x)", there must be such unprovable statement, because given any unprovable statement, both itself and its negation are unprovable, if its closed it starts with for all/there exists, so either itself or its negation starts with a for all.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thats why I assumed that the structure of the statement I am considering in my post is "for all x such that P(x)", there must be such unprovable statement, because given any unprovable statement, both itself and its negation are unprovable, if its closed it starts with for all/there exists, so either itself or its negation starts with a for all.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@J.M. You just have the wrong kind of statement in mind if you're looking to understand example of incompleteness. Fermat's last theorem, had it been false, would have been decidable, since a counterexample could then be presented. This was why mathematicians knew, with your reasoning, that if it were undecidable they'd never even be able to prove that. But this only works because the claim takes the right form for falsity to imply decidability.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@J.M. You just have the wrong kind of statement in mind if you're looking to understand example of incompleteness. Fermat's last theorem, had it been false, would have been decidable, since a counterexample could then be presented. This was why mathematicians knew, with your reasoning, that if it were undecidable they'd never even be able to prove that. But this only works because the claim takes the right form for falsity to imply decidability.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm not sure why you are saying I am wrong. I am just making an assumption. Do you think my assumption is false? why do you think so? I believe there are unprovable statement of the form "for all x, P(x)". Unfortunately I don't really understand your point, or how it disproves what I said. Its not detailed enough for me. I'm not that familiar with foundations.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm not sure why you are saying I am wrong. I am just making an assumption. Do you think my assumption is false? why do you think so? I believe there are unprovable statement of the form "for all x, P(x)". Unfortunately I don't really understand your point, or how it disproves what I said. Its not detailed enough for me. I'm not that familiar with foundations.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't seem to at all address the question being asked. And even if it did, someone having trouble with GIT isn't going to even remotely understand Goodstein's theorem.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't seem to at all address the question being asked. And even if it did, someone having trouble with GIT isn't going to even remotely understand Goodstein's theorem.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What one can prove, in PA (and in fact in even weaker arithmetical theories than that) via a careful version of the argument you give is "If PA is consistent, then there is a statement $G$ such that $G$ holds and PA cannot prove $G$." If PA could prove its own consistency, then it would prove both $G$ and that PA cannot prove $G.$ Thus the latter is a false statement and PA is unsound. Thus if PA is sound, then it cannot prove its own consistency. This is essentially a proof of (a weak form of) the second incompleteness theorem from the first.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I think this is not about this particular example, but rather about the underlying idea of "Independent $Pi_1$ is true".
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AsafKaragila But my point is that we can formalize all that in PA. $Con(PA)to Gland lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ is a theorem of PA, and the reasoning within PA that $G$ follows from $Con(PA)$ is exactly that a witness to $lnot G$ would allow a PA proof of $Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ which contradicts $lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ (which holds, and produces a contradiction under the assumption of $Con(PA)$). So OP is right that the argument works in a PA metatheory, they just forgot about the consistency part (and are confused about the metatheory part).
$endgroup$
– spaceisdarkgreen
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What one can prove, in PA (and in fact in even weaker arithmetical theories than that) via a careful version of the argument you give is "If PA is consistent, then there is a statement $G$ such that $G$ holds and PA cannot prove $G$." If PA could prove its own consistency, then it would prove both $G$ and that PA cannot prove $G.$ Thus the latter is a false statement and PA is unsound. Thus if PA is sound, then it cannot prove its own consistency. This is essentially a proof of (a weak form of) the second incompleteness theorem from the first.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I think this is not about this particular example, but rather about the underlying idea of "Independent $Pi_1$ is true".
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AsafKaragila But my point is that we can formalize all that in PA. $Con(PA)to Gland lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ is a theorem of PA, and the reasoning within PA that $G$ follows from $Con(PA)$ is exactly that a witness to $lnot G$ would allow a PA proof of $Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ which contradicts $lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ (which holds, and produces a contradiction under the assumption of $Con(PA)$). So OP is right that the argument works in a PA metatheory, they just forgot about the consistency part (and are confused about the metatheory part).
$endgroup$
– spaceisdarkgreen
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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What one can prove, in PA (and in fact in even weaker arithmetical theories than that) via a careful version of the argument you give is "If PA is consistent, then there is a statement $G$ such that $G$ holds and PA cannot prove $G$." If PA could prove its own consistency, then it would prove both $G$ and that PA cannot prove $G.$ Thus the latter is a false statement and PA is unsound. Thus if PA is sound, then it cannot prove its own consistency. This is essentially a proof of (a weak form of) the second incompleteness theorem from the first.
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What one can prove, in PA (and in fact in even weaker arithmetical theories than that) via a careful version of the argument you give is "If PA is consistent, then there is a statement $G$ such that $G$ holds and PA cannot prove $G$." If PA could prove its own consistency, then it would prove both $G$ and that PA cannot prove $G.$ Thus the latter is a false statement and PA is unsound. Thus if PA is sound, then it cannot prove its own consistency. This is essentially a proof of (a weak form of) the second incompleteness theorem from the first.
answered 7 hours ago
spaceisdarkgreenspaceisdarkgreen
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I think this is not about this particular example, but rather about the underlying idea of "Independent $Pi_1$ is true".
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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@AsafKaragila But my point is that we can formalize all that in PA. $Con(PA)to Gland lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ is a theorem of PA, and the reasoning within PA that $G$ follows from $Con(PA)$ is exactly that a witness to $lnot G$ would allow a PA proof of $Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ which contradicts $lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ (which holds, and produces a contradiction under the assumption of $Con(PA)$). So OP is right that the argument works in a PA metatheory, they just forgot about the consistency part (and are confused about the metatheory part).
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– spaceisdarkgreen
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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I think this is not about this particular example, but rather about the underlying idea of "Independent $Pi_1$ is true".
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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@AsafKaragila But my point is that we can formalize all that in PA. $Con(PA)to Gland lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ is a theorem of PA, and the reasoning within PA that $G$ follows from $Con(PA)$ is exactly that a witness to $lnot G$ would allow a PA proof of $Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ which contradicts $lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ (which holds, and produces a contradiction under the assumption of $Con(PA)$). So OP is right that the argument works in a PA metatheory, they just forgot about the consistency part (and are confused about the metatheory part).
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– spaceisdarkgreen
6 hours ago
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I think this is not about this particular example, but rather about the underlying idea of "Independent $Pi_1$ is true".
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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I think this is not about this particular example, but rather about the underlying idea of "Independent $Pi_1$ is true".
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– Asaf Karagila♦
7 hours ago
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@AsafKaragila But my point is that we can formalize all that in PA. $Con(PA)to Gland lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ is a theorem of PA, and the reasoning within PA that $G$ follows from $Con(PA)$ is exactly that a witness to $lnot G$ would allow a PA proof of $Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ which contradicts $lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ (which holds, and produces a contradiction under the assumption of $Con(PA)$). So OP is right that the argument works in a PA metatheory, they just forgot about the consistency part (and are confused about the metatheory part).
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– spaceisdarkgreen
6 hours ago
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@AsafKaragila But my point is that we can formalize all that in PA. $Con(PA)to Gland lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ is a theorem of PA, and the reasoning within PA that $G$ follows from $Con(PA)$ is exactly that a witness to $lnot G$ would allow a PA proof of $Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ which contradicts $lnot Prov(ulcorner Gurcorner)$ (which holds, and produces a contradiction under the assumption of $Con(PA)$). So OP is right that the argument works in a PA metatheory, they just forgot about the consistency part (and are confused about the metatheory part).
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– spaceisdarkgreen
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Specifically, given a logic $L_1$, you can construct (algorithmically) a statement $P(x)$ such that there is a proof of $P(0)$ and there is a proof of $P(1)$ and there is a proof of $P(2)$, etc, but there is no proof of $forall k~P(k)$ (and all of that assumes consistency).
We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement
We have not formally proved this. There is no formal proof in $L_1$ that $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$. To show $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$, we actually need to use the assumption that $P(k)$ represents the statement "$k text is not a proof of G$" (for a specially chosen $G$). But that assumption isn't actually provable in $L_1$, it is just something we know to be true because it was designed that way.
My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent
Godel wasn't wrong, nor is the logic the theorem deals with. The logic is just incomplete. And more importantly, it is incompletable.
Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
Yes, and there is huge branch of logic that deals with this approach. It is called provability logic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-provability/ . But, even after you encode all the outer logic and use it as your new logic, then you've just created a new logic $L_2$, from which a new $P$ can be algorithmically constructed. No matter how much "meta" you keep adding, a new $P$ can be created.
I suggest reading through https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/ , it is an absolutely fantastic reference for Godel's first incompleteness theorem (but an unfortunately deficient reference for the second, that requires a bit more framework than the article presents).
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Thanks for this detailed analysis, I should have use more caution indeed and not say that we have proven that there are no counter examples. Just that the fact that there are no counter examples is true.
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– J. M.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Specifically, given a logic $L_1$, you can construct (algorithmically) a statement $P(x)$ such that there is a proof of $P(0)$ and there is a proof of $P(1)$ and there is a proof of $P(2)$, etc, but there is no proof of $forall k~P(k)$ (and all of that assumes consistency).
We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement
We have not formally proved this. There is no formal proof in $L_1$ that $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$. To show $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$, we actually need to use the assumption that $P(k)$ represents the statement "$k text is not a proof of G$" (for a specially chosen $G$). But that assumption isn't actually provable in $L_1$, it is just something we know to be true because it was designed that way.
My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent
Godel wasn't wrong, nor is the logic the theorem deals with. The logic is just incomplete. And more importantly, it is incompletable.
Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
Yes, and there is huge branch of logic that deals with this approach. It is called provability logic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-provability/ . But, even after you encode all the outer logic and use it as your new logic, then you've just created a new logic $L_2$, from which a new $P$ can be algorithmically constructed. No matter how much "meta" you keep adding, a new $P$ can be created.
I suggest reading through https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/ , it is an absolutely fantastic reference for Godel's first incompleteness theorem (but an unfortunately deficient reference for the second, that requires a bit more framework than the article presents).
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Thanks for this detailed analysis, I should have use more caution indeed and not say that we have proven that there are no counter examples. Just that the fact that there are no counter examples is true.
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– J. M.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Specifically, given a logic $L_1$, you can construct (algorithmically) a statement $P(x)$ such that there is a proof of $P(0)$ and there is a proof of $P(1)$ and there is a proof of $P(2)$, etc, but there is no proof of $forall k~P(k)$ (and all of that assumes consistency).
We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement
We have not formally proved this. There is no formal proof in $L_1$ that $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$. To show $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$, we actually need to use the assumption that $P(k)$ represents the statement "$k text is not a proof of G$" (for a specially chosen $G$). But that assumption isn't actually provable in $L_1$, it is just something we know to be true because it was designed that way.
My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent
Godel wasn't wrong, nor is the logic the theorem deals with. The logic is just incomplete. And more importantly, it is incompletable.
Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
Yes, and there is huge branch of logic that deals with this approach. It is called provability logic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-provability/ . But, even after you encode all the outer logic and use it as your new logic, then you've just created a new logic $L_2$, from which a new $P$ can be algorithmically constructed. No matter how much "meta" you keep adding, a new $P$ can be created.
I suggest reading through https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/ , it is an absolutely fantastic reference for Godel's first incompleteness theorem (but an unfortunately deficient reference for the second, that requires a bit more framework than the article presents).
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one can find some non-trivial universal closed sentences (starting with a "for all" quantifier, all variables being bound) that can be proven to be unprovable.
Specifically, given a logic $L_1$, you can construct (algorithmically) a statement $P(x)$ such that there is a proof of $P(0)$ and there is a proof of $P(1)$ and there is a proof of $P(2)$, etc, but there is no proof of $forall k~P(k)$ (and all of that assumes consistency).
We proved that there can be no counter example of this statement
We have not formally proved this. There is no formal proof in $L_1$ that $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$. To show $lnot exists k ~ lnot P(k)$, we actually need to use the assumption that $P(k)$ represents the statement "$k text is not a proof of G$" (for a specially chosen $G$). But that assumption isn't actually provable in $L_1$, it is just something we know to be true because it was designed that way.
My conclusion is that either Gödel was wrong, or mathematics are inconsistent
Godel wasn't wrong, nor is the logic the theorem deals with. The logic is just incomplete. And more importantly, it is incompletable.
Even if metalanguage is mixed with regular language, cannot all the metalanguage used here be encoded in a first order logic with Peano arithmetic, and seen as not part of a stronger theory ?
Yes, and there is huge branch of logic that deals with this approach. It is called provability logic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-provability/ . But, even after you encode all the outer logic and use it as your new logic, then you've just created a new logic $L_2$, from which a new $P$ can be algorithmically constructed. No matter how much "meta" you keep adding, a new $P$ can be created.
I suggest reading through https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/ , it is an absolutely fantastic reference for Godel's first incompleteness theorem (but an unfortunately deficient reference for the second, that requires a bit more framework than the article presents).
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
DanielVDanielV
18.5k4 gold badges28 silver badges56 bronze badges
18.5k4 gold badges28 silver badges56 bronze badges
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Thanks for this detailed analysis, I should have use more caution indeed and not say that we have proven that there are no counter examples. Just that the fact that there are no counter examples is true.
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– J. M.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks for this detailed analysis, I should have use more caution indeed and not say that we have proven that there are no counter examples. Just that the fact that there are no counter examples is true.
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– J. M.
5 hours ago
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Thanks for this detailed analysis, I should have use more caution indeed and not say that we have proven that there are no counter examples. Just that the fact that there are no counter examples is true.
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– J. M.
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks for this detailed analysis, I should have use more caution indeed and not say that we have proven that there are no counter examples. Just that the fact that there are no counter examples is true.
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– J. M.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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I think people here understand the flaw in my argument so I will try to make it sound simple. To try to sum it up, I think the problem with my second paragraph, was that although it is indeed a proof of the universal statement, it is a proof assuming the statement itself, rather than just the principles of the implicit theory. It is perfectly circular in its form, it does not mean that the theory proves the statement. Just that the statement proves itself by virtue of it being true.
As one can notice "proof" is a relative notion. Unlike what I failed to realize early enough, one should always make the mental effort to ask oneself: proven with respect to what?
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It's easy to throw a pebble into a well, but it takes sophistication to remove it.
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– Asaf Karagila♦
5 hours ago
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This is very wrong. Neither GIT nor Godel's sentence is a circular claim that assumes itself to be true. If you are actually interested in the subject then you are going to have to do the hard work of learning the proof of GIT. There is no royal road to geometry.
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– DanielV
4 hours ago
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I think there is some misunderstanding. In this answer I am referring to my own claim "Consider such an unprovable universal statement [...] Therefore the given statement must be true.". What I meant by this whole paragraph actually, is that "For all x, P(x)" is a proof of "For all x, P(x)". I just initially said that it was "a proof" period. I failed to notice that it was under the assumption of "For all x, P(x)" itself
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– J. M.
4 hours ago
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It's really a dumb mistake and I'm considering deleting my question. But its funny to watch all these experts arguing on the various possible interpretations of my post.
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– J. M.
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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I think people here understand the flaw in my argument so I will try to make it sound simple. To try to sum it up, I think the problem with my second paragraph, was that although it is indeed a proof of the universal statement, it is a proof assuming the statement itself, rather than just the principles of the implicit theory. It is perfectly circular in its form, it does not mean that the theory proves the statement. Just that the statement proves itself by virtue of it being true.
As one can notice "proof" is a relative notion. Unlike what I failed to realize early enough, one should always make the mental effort to ask oneself: proven with respect to what?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It's easy to throw a pebble into a well, but it takes sophistication to remove it.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is very wrong. Neither GIT nor Godel's sentence is a circular claim that assumes itself to be true. If you are actually interested in the subject then you are going to have to do the hard work of learning the proof of GIT. There is no royal road to geometry.
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– DanielV
4 hours ago
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I think there is some misunderstanding. In this answer I am referring to my own claim "Consider such an unprovable universal statement [...] Therefore the given statement must be true.". What I meant by this whole paragraph actually, is that "For all x, P(x)" is a proof of "For all x, P(x)". I just initially said that it was "a proof" period. I failed to notice that it was under the assumption of "For all x, P(x)" itself
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– J. M.
4 hours ago
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It's really a dumb mistake and I'm considering deleting my question. But its funny to watch all these experts arguing on the various possible interpretations of my post.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think people here understand the flaw in my argument so I will try to make it sound simple. To try to sum it up, I think the problem with my second paragraph, was that although it is indeed a proof of the universal statement, it is a proof assuming the statement itself, rather than just the principles of the implicit theory. It is perfectly circular in its form, it does not mean that the theory proves the statement. Just that the statement proves itself by virtue of it being true.
As one can notice "proof" is a relative notion. Unlike what I failed to realize early enough, one should always make the mental effort to ask oneself: proven with respect to what?
$endgroup$
I think people here understand the flaw in my argument so I will try to make it sound simple. To try to sum it up, I think the problem with my second paragraph, was that although it is indeed a proof of the universal statement, it is a proof assuming the statement itself, rather than just the principles of the implicit theory. It is perfectly circular in its form, it does not mean that the theory proves the statement. Just that the statement proves itself by virtue of it being true.
As one can notice "proof" is a relative notion. Unlike what I failed to realize early enough, one should always make the mental effort to ask oneself: proven with respect to what?
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
J. M.J. M.
314 bronze badges
314 bronze badges
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It's easy to throw a pebble into a well, but it takes sophistication to remove it.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
5 hours ago
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This is very wrong. Neither GIT nor Godel's sentence is a circular claim that assumes itself to be true. If you are actually interested in the subject then you are going to have to do the hard work of learning the proof of GIT. There is no royal road to geometry.
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– DanielV
4 hours ago
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I think there is some misunderstanding. In this answer I am referring to my own claim "Consider such an unprovable universal statement [...] Therefore the given statement must be true.". What I meant by this whole paragraph actually, is that "For all x, P(x)" is a proof of "For all x, P(x)". I just initially said that it was "a proof" period. I failed to notice that it was under the assumption of "For all x, P(x)" itself
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– J. M.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's really a dumb mistake and I'm considering deleting my question. But its funny to watch all these experts arguing on the various possible interpretations of my post.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's easy to throw a pebble into a well, but it takes sophistication to remove it.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is very wrong. Neither GIT nor Godel's sentence is a circular claim that assumes itself to be true. If you are actually interested in the subject then you are going to have to do the hard work of learning the proof of GIT. There is no royal road to geometry.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think there is some misunderstanding. In this answer I am referring to my own claim "Consider such an unprovable universal statement [...] Therefore the given statement must be true.". What I meant by this whole paragraph actually, is that "For all x, P(x)" is a proof of "For all x, P(x)". I just initially said that it was "a proof" period. I failed to notice that it was under the assumption of "For all x, P(x)" itself
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's really a dumb mistake and I'm considering deleting my question. But its funny to watch all these experts arguing on the various possible interpretations of my post.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's easy to throw a pebble into a well, but it takes sophistication to remove it.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's easy to throw a pebble into a well, but it takes sophistication to remove it.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is very wrong. Neither GIT nor Godel's sentence is a circular claim that assumes itself to be true. If you are actually interested in the subject then you are going to have to do the hard work of learning the proof of GIT. There is no royal road to geometry.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is very wrong. Neither GIT nor Godel's sentence is a circular claim that assumes itself to be true. If you are actually interested in the subject then you are going to have to do the hard work of learning the proof of GIT. There is no royal road to geometry.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think there is some misunderstanding. In this answer I am referring to my own claim "Consider such an unprovable universal statement [...] Therefore the given statement must be true.". What I meant by this whole paragraph actually, is that "For all x, P(x)" is a proof of "For all x, P(x)". I just initially said that it was "a proof" period. I failed to notice that it was under the assumption of "For all x, P(x)" itself
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think there is some misunderstanding. In this answer I am referring to my own claim "Consider such an unprovable universal statement [...] Therefore the given statement must be true.". What I meant by this whole paragraph actually, is that "For all x, P(x)" is a proof of "For all x, P(x)". I just initially said that it was "a proof" period. I failed to notice that it was under the assumption of "For all x, P(x)" itself
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's really a dumb mistake and I'm considering deleting my question. But its funny to watch all these experts arguing on the various possible interpretations of my post.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's really a dumb mistake and I'm considering deleting my question. But its funny to watch all these experts arguing on the various possible interpretations of my post.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The key step in your argument is when you say that if there is a counterexample to $forall x.P(x)$, then the theory $T$ we speak about can prove that it is in fact a counterexample.
The particular form of $P(x)$ that comes out of Gödel's construction has the property that whenever we have a particular numeral $bar n$, then the formula $P(bar n)$ will always be true, and $T$ proves it to be true.
However, the does not constitute a proof of $forall x.P(x)$. To think it does invokes a hidden assumption that everything our $forall x$ ranges over can be expressed as a numeral. For sure this is true about our intended interpretation of $T$ as the "actual natural numbers", but in order for $T$ to prove something it needs not only to be true in the intended interpretation, but also in every other interpretation that satisfies the axioms of $T$.
Here the reasoning runs into trouble, because we know that $T$ must have some models where some of the elements don't correspond to numerals. (This is so independently of the incompleteness theorem; the "usual compactness argument" shows that such a model must exist for any theory that can speak about the naturals). Therefore, the known fact that $P$ is true and provable about all numerals doesn't imply that $forall x.P(x)$ is true in all models, and therefore we can't conclude that it ought to be provable. And so the entire argument falls apart.
Gödel's notion of an "$omega$-consistent" theory requires that there is no formula $varphi(x)$ such that $T$ both proves $varphi(bar n)$ about every numeral, and proves $exists x.negvarphi(x)$ which is the same as $neg forall x.varphi(x)$. One way to show that a $T$ is $omega$-consistent is to show that it has some model where all elements are numerals; interpreted in such a model the Gödel sentence will be true. The original incompleteness proof explicitly assumed that $T$ is $omega$-consistent and used that to argue that $T$ cannot prove $negforall x.P(x)$. Later, Rosser found a way to avoid this assumption and instead just assume that $T$ is consistent.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
The key step in your argument is when you say that if there is a counterexample to $forall x.P(x)$, then the theory $T$ we speak about can prove that it is in fact a counterexample.
The particular form of $P(x)$ that comes out of Gödel's construction has the property that whenever we have a particular numeral $bar n$, then the formula $P(bar n)$ will always be true, and $T$ proves it to be true.
However, the does not constitute a proof of $forall x.P(x)$. To think it does invokes a hidden assumption that everything our $forall x$ ranges over can be expressed as a numeral. For sure this is true about our intended interpretation of $T$ as the "actual natural numbers", but in order for $T$ to prove something it needs not only to be true in the intended interpretation, but also in every other interpretation that satisfies the axioms of $T$.
Here the reasoning runs into trouble, because we know that $T$ must have some models where some of the elements don't correspond to numerals. (This is so independently of the incompleteness theorem; the "usual compactness argument" shows that such a model must exist for any theory that can speak about the naturals). Therefore, the known fact that $P$ is true and provable about all numerals doesn't imply that $forall x.P(x)$ is true in all models, and therefore we can't conclude that it ought to be provable. And so the entire argument falls apart.
Gödel's notion of an "$omega$-consistent" theory requires that there is no formula $varphi(x)$ such that $T$ both proves $varphi(bar n)$ about every numeral, and proves $exists x.negvarphi(x)$ which is the same as $neg forall x.varphi(x)$. One way to show that a $T$ is $omega$-consistent is to show that it has some model where all elements are numerals; interpreted in such a model the Gödel sentence will be true. The original incompleteness proof explicitly assumed that $T$ is $omega$-consistent and used that to argue that $T$ cannot prove $negforall x.P(x)$. Later, Rosser found a way to avoid this assumption and instead just assume that $T$ is consistent.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
The key step in your argument is when you say that if there is a counterexample to $forall x.P(x)$, then the theory $T$ we speak about can prove that it is in fact a counterexample.
The particular form of $P(x)$ that comes out of Gödel's construction has the property that whenever we have a particular numeral $bar n$, then the formula $P(bar n)$ will always be true, and $T$ proves it to be true.
However, the does not constitute a proof of $forall x.P(x)$. To think it does invokes a hidden assumption that everything our $forall x$ ranges over can be expressed as a numeral. For sure this is true about our intended interpretation of $T$ as the "actual natural numbers", but in order for $T$ to prove something it needs not only to be true in the intended interpretation, but also in every other interpretation that satisfies the axioms of $T$.
Here the reasoning runs into trouble, because we know that $T$ must have some models where some of the elements don't correspond to numerals. (This is so independently of the incompleteness theorem; the "usual compactness argument" shows that such a model must exist for any theory that can speak about the naturals). Therefore, the known fact that $P$ is true and provable about all numerals doesn't imply that $forall x.P(x)$ is true in all models, and therefore we can't conclude that it ought to be provable. And so the entire argument falls apart.
Gödel's notion of an "$omega$-consistent" theory requires that there is no formula $varphi(x)$ such that $T$ both proves $varphi(bar n)$ about every numeral, and proves $exists x.negvarphi(x)$ which is the same as $neg forall x.varphi(x)$. One way to show that a $T$ is $omega$-consistent is to show that it has some model where all elements are numerals; interpreted in such a model the Gödel sentence will be true. The original incompleteness proof explicitly assumed that $T$ is $omega$-consistent and used that to argue that $T$ cannot prove $negforall x.P(x)$. Later, Rosser found a way to avoid this assumption and instead just assume that $T$ is consistent.
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The key step in your argument is when you say that if there is a counterexample to $forall x.P(x)$, then the theory $T$ we speak about can prove that it is in fact a counterexample.
The particular form of $P(x)$ that comes out of Gödel's construction has the property that whenever we have a particular numeral $bar n$, then the formula $P(bar n)$ will always be true, and $T$ proves it to be true.
However, the does not constitute a proof of $forall x.P(x)$. To think it does invokes a hidden assumption that everything our $forall x$ ranges over can be expressed as a numeral. For sure this is true about our intended interpretation of $T$ as the "actual natural numbers", but in order for $T$ to prove something it needs not only to be true in the intended interpretation, but also in every other interpretation that satisfies the axioms of $T$.
Here the reasoning runs into trouble, because we know that $T$ must have some models where some of the elements don't correspond to numerals. (This is so independently of the incompleteness theorem; the "usual compactness argument" shows that such a model must exist for any theory that can speak about the naturals). Therefore, the known fact that $P$ is true and provable about all numerals doesn't imply that $forall x.P(x)$ is true in all models, and therefore we can't conclude that it ought to be provable. And so the entire argument falls apart.
Gödel's notion of an "$omega$-consistent" theory requires that there is no formula $varphi(x)$ such that $T$ both proves $varphi(bar n)$ about every numeral, and proves $exists x.negvarphi(x)$ which is the same as $neg forall x.varphi(x)$. One way to show that a $T$ is $omega$-consistent is to show that it has some model where all elements are numerals; interpreted in such a model the Gödel sentence will be true. The original incompleteness proof explicitly assumed that $T$ is $omega$-consistent and used that to argue that $T$ cannot prove $negforall x.P(x)$. Later, Rosser found a way to avoid this assumption and instead just assume that $T$ is consistent.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
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$begingroup$
I'm not certain that your paragraph can be phrased within the language in question. You're looking at your logic theory from the outside-in, and when doing that you can prove things about it that it couldn't prove about itself. At least, I suspect that that's what's happening here. This is not a field where I'm very proficient.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes I thought the same, but I don't see why I couldn't reiterate the same proof in such a theory that would be powerful enough to encode the metalanguage of my argument.
$endgroup$
– J. M.
8 hours ago