Why isn't Tyrion mentioned in the in-universe book “A Song of Ice and Fire”?Why didn't Maester Ebrose mention Tyrion?What did Brienne write about Jaime?What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister’s joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?Does the Song of Ice and Fire take place in a hollow world?Does a reference exist for the A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones)?Are there any subtle hints towards Lord of the Rings in A Song of Ice And Fire?Term for tricks in literatureWhy does Game of thrones differ so much from a Song of Ice and Fire?Are there sources for ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ other than the books?Why do the tribesmen of the Vale hang around Tyrion for so long?When and why did Jeor Mormont join the Night's Watch?Why didn't the killers burn Snow's body?Will Game of Thrones end like A Song of Ice and Fire?
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Why isn't Tyrion mentioned in the in-universe book "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
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Why isn't Tyrion mentioned in the in-universe book “A Song of Ice and Fire”?
Why didn't Maester Ebrose mention Tyrion?What did Brienne write about Jaime?What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister’s joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?Does the Song of Ice and Fire take place in a hollow world?Does a reference exist for the A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones)?Are there any subtle hints towards Lord of the Rings in A Song of Ice And Fire?Term for tricks in literatureWhy does Game of thrones differ so much from a Song of Ice and Fire?Are there sources for ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ other than the books?Why do the tribesmen of the Vale hang around Tyrion for so long?When and why did Jeor Mormont join the Night's Watch?Why didn't the killers burn Snow's body?Will Game of Thrones end like A Song of Ice and Fire?
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Why isn't Tyrion mentioned in the in-universe book "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
He certainly deserved to be. He mentions that he didn't think he'd be spoken of kindly. Why did the maester dislike him?
game-of-thrones
New contributor
add a comment |
Why isn't Tyrion mentioned in the in-universe book "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
He certainly deserved to be. He mentions that he didn't think he'd be spoken of kindly. Why did the maester dislike him?
game-of-thrones
New contributor
23
I thought Sam was making a joke. He's twice the Hand of the King/Queen which is an important position
– KharoBangdo
yesterday
15
I just checked... and there are several mentions of Tyrion in my copy... although I have the Kindle version if that makes any difference.
– TGnat
yesterday
6
In context, the whole sequence was filled with jokes: What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?
– Cœur
23 hours ago
add a comment |
Why isn't Tyrion mentioned in the in-universe book "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
He certainly deserved to be. He mentions that he didn't think he'd be spoken of kindly. Why did the maester dislike him?
game-of-thrones
New contributor
Why isn't Tyrion mentioned in the in-universe book "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
He certainly deserved to be. He mentions that he didn't think he'd be spoken of kindly. Why did the maester dislike him?
game-of-thrones
game-of-thrones
New contributor
New contributor
edited 2 hours ago
V2Blast
17119
17119
New contributor
asked yesterday
Alec AAlec A
1,1493629
1,1493629
New contributor
New contributor
23
I thought Sam was making a joke. He's twice the Hand of the King/Queen which is an important position
– KharoBangdo
yesterday
15
I just checked... and there are several mentions of Tyrion in my copy... although I have the Kindle version if that makes any difference.
– TGnat
yesterday
6
In context, the whole sequence was filled with jokes: What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?
– Cœur
23 hours ago
add a comment |
23
I thought Sam was making a joke. He's twice the Hand of the King/Queen which is an important position
– KharoBangdo
yesterday
15
I just checked... and there are several mentions of Tyrion in my copy... although I have the Kindle version if that makes any difference.
– TGnat
yesterday
6
In context, the whole sequence was filled with jokes: What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?
– Cœur
23 hours ago
23
23
I thought Sam was making a joke. He's twice the Hand of the King/Queen which is an important position
– KharoBangdo
yesterday
I thought Sam was making a joke. He's twice the Hand of the King/Queen which is an important position
– KharoBangdo
yesterday
15
15
I just checked... and there are several mentions of Tyrion in my copy... although I have the Kindle version if that makes any difference.
– TGnat
yesterday
I just checked... and there are several mentions of Tyrion in my copy... although I have the Kindle version if that makes any difference.
– TGnat
yesterday
6
6
In context, the whole sequence was filled with jokes: What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?
– Cœur
23 hours ago
In context, the whole sequence was filled with jokes: What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?
– Cœur
23 hours ago
add a comment |
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
There is no plausible way of writing a complete and accurate history of events after Robert's rebellion without mentioning Tyrion. It was likely a joke.
The man has been the Hand of the King to Joffrey I Baratheon and Brandon I Stark. He has been convicted of killing a King and his own father who happened to be the Hand of the King and the most powerful man in Westeros.
His association with Dany would earn him a long chapter dedicated to him as well.
New contributor
5
Minor nitpick even though it doesn't change your point, Tyrion was acting Hand of the King to Joffrey whilst Tywin was away with the war.
– TheLethalCarrot
yesterday
I think they left him out because he is an Imp.
– user1129682
yesterday
6
An imp who was the Hand to three different rulers. Absurd that they would leave him out.
– TargBot
yesterday
12
This is the correct answer. It was an (out-of-universe) joke, executed at the cost of a reasonable narrative.
– BlueRaja - Danny Pflughoeft
yesterday
2
"Complete and accurate history" -- as the current highest upvoted answer indicates, you fundamentally misunderstand the goals this Maester would have had in this setting. That was never the intent of the work, and everyone (who is educated, at least) in the world knows that.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else. Therefore, unless Maester Ebrose was unusually scrupulous, he would be focusing not only on which events actually occurred, but also on telling a story. He would want this story to have a satisfying and tidy narrative, so that people would read and enjoy his book, and he would want to tell a story that was acceptable in the political climate he was writing in, so that he could keep his enviviable position as archmaester.
History books focus on figureheads
People like reading stories about Lords and Ladies, Princes and Princesses, Kings and Queens. Their entourages are of less interest. No matter how important they are behind the scenes, advisors and councillors are unlikely to get a mention. Even for a position as important as Hand of The King, it makes for a better story to simply pretend that it was the monarch themselves who made the decisions and gave the commands. This is highlighted rather touchingly by Varys after the Battle of Blackwater.
There are many who know that without you this city faced certain defeat. The King won't give you any honours, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget.
Varys' prediction was correct. Although Tyrion was highborn and Hand to several Kings and Queens, he was never the ruler of any of the great houses or any of the Seven Kingdoms. (This situation might have changed since the end of Ebrose's book, due to the deaths of every other member of House Lannister.) Therefore his actions would not necessarily merit inclusion in a history.
Tyrion's victory at Blackwater is King Joffery's victory. The fact that Tyrion was convicted of Joffery's murder is irrelevant since it was later revealed that the murderer was Lady Olenna Tyrell. The commands Tyrion gave as Hand of The Queen would have been attributed to Daenerys Targaryen. The one action that he might have been granted credit for was the murder of his father Tywin, but (assuming it was even public knowledge) Maester Ebrose would have found it awkward to include this fact.
It would have been politically unwise to mention him
Westeros is now totally controlled by the Starks. They rule the Night's Watch, The North and The Six Kingdoms. Furthermore they've appointed a close personal friend as Grand Maester. Therefore Maester Ebrose would wish to avoid publishing anything that would offend them or cast them in a bad light.
Likewise Tyrion is in a very powerful position as Hand of The King, so Maester Ebrose would also wish to avoid offending him.
This puts Ebrose in a difficult position since Tyrion spent almost all of the wars serving those fighting against the Starks. If he mentioned Tyrion in a flattering way it would make the Starks look worse. If he mentioned Tyrion in an unflattering way then Tyrion might have retaliated. It's hard to mention him in a neutral way because Tyrion spent all his time associating with the Starks' enemies. Worst of all, Tyrion's main achievement was his victory at Blackwater against Stannis, the very man that Ned Stark was executed for supporting.
So Maester Ebrose took the easy solution and simply didn't mention Tyrion at all. This ran the slight risk of offending Tyrion by diminishing his importance, but the risk was less than that of writing something that could have directly offended Tyrion or the Starks.
New contributor
7
"The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else." - This corresponds to the fact that the Three Eyed Raven is 'the memory of the world' and the books of the Maesters in the Citadel isn't - History books reflect the story the writer/victor want to tell, not the accurate historical context. Nice point!
– Cinderhaze
yesterday
4
Adding to your point in the first paragraph, one of the most commonly cited historians on Ancient Greece (Herodotus) is referred to by some as "The Father of Lies" for his many apocryphal stories. Many ancient historians were story-tellers who heavily edited their stories for dramatic effect.
– kuhl
yesterday
3
@MikeScott A relationship never consummated so never formally cemented. At least as far as Ramsay was concerned. In any case, it makes it easy to wipe away something that, formally speaking, never really existed in the first place.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
10
@MikeScott Ebrose would then have to explain why they weren't still married. Tyrion wouldn't appreciate the world being reminded of the fact that he never consummated the marriage. To us it's a sign of his good character that he refused to rape Sansa despite pressure from his family to do so. But to the kind of people the Hand of The King has to deal with, it would be a sign of weakness, unmanliness or impotence. Since the marriage was never valid anyway, it's possible to simply not mention it.
– Oscar Cunningham
yesterday
4
And +1 from me simply for reminding us of that Varys quote. Makes it quite clear that the history books would not be written for accuracy, and this is to be expected by the (educated) people of this world.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
I see people are trying to come up with in-universe explanations, but I strongly think that the reason is this:
The writers simply wanted to make yet another joke within the larger joke that was the whole scene.
Besides amusement, they also wanted to emphasise that Tyrion played a huge role in obtaining the final peace, and ironically nobody would ever know.
3
I consider statements like these to be pandering non-answers. Of course the writers are trying to make jokes at times. When you've got Bronn there smirking from Dorne to The Wall it is patently obvious that this was constructed to be a humorous event to the viewer. We don't need to be reminded of that. The OP isn't even specifically asking for out-of-universe explanations—which we generally require to have an actual source (quoting an interview with Benioff and Weiss, say)—or demonstrating a fundamental inability to grasp the obvious humor.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
add a comment |
This would be a nod to how the Maesters are not men of science, as we now know them, nor even historians as we now know them, as befits such men in the time period and setting most similar to their setting from our own history. The story has been recorded not to provide an accurate and factual retelling, but to provide the story. It was, apparently, this Maester's decision that Tyrion did not fit into the story he wanted to tell. A whore-mongering imp was not quite as stirring a character as warranted inclusion, perhaps.
add a comment |
The book was on the war of succession, and Tyrion did not play a big role in that. He did not try to claim the throne, he was not politically important as he was not a head of a house, and he did not lead armies in any significant battles.
His act as a hand will be attributed to the rulers he served, his marriage to Sansa was inconsequential, and the murder of Joffery and Tywin were probably attributed to their enemies.
Him being named hand of Brandon is probably outside of the scope of the book.
add a comment |
I believe this book is to mimic the books we read (also titled (as a whole) A Song of Ice and Fire). In the books Tyrion is certainly mentioned- but they make certain to spend a good deal of rime describing how hideous looking Tyrion is. I took this joke in the show to be Sam saying “no, no, you’re not even in it..” all sheepish and then Tyrion reading parts, smirking, rolling his eyes and closing the book- to be him seeing his description as a horrible looking moster-esque man and that was the joke...
New contributor
add a comment |
My guess. There are only two living males of major houses with the ability to reproduce. Jon went into the book as a bastard. And Tyrion is excluded. The wheel stays broken
New contributor
add a comment |
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7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
There is no plausible way of writing a complete and accurate history of events after Robert's rebellion without mentioning Tyrion. It was likely a joke.
The man has been the Hand of the King to Joffrey I Baratheon and Brandon I Stark. He has been convicted of killing a King and his own father who happened to be the Hand of the King and the most powerful man in Westeros.
His association with Dany would earn him a long chapter dedicated to him as well.
New contributor
5
Minor nitpick even though it doesn't change your point, Tyrion was acting Hand of the King to Joffrey whilst Tywin was away with the war.
– TheLethalCarrot
yesterday
I think they left him out because he is an Imp.
– user1129682
yesterday
6
An imp who was the Hand to three different rulers. Absurd that they would leave him out.
– TargBot
yesterday
12
This is the correct answer. It was an (out-of-universe) joke, executed at the cost of a reasonable narrative.
– BlueRaja - Danny Pflughoeft
yesterday
2
"Complete and accurate history" -- as the current highest upvoted answer indicates, you fundamentally misunderstand the goals this Maester would have had in this setting. That was never the intent of the work, and everyone (who is educated, at least) in the world knows that.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
There is no plausible way of writing a complete and accurate history of events after Robert's rebellion without mentioning Tyrion. It was likely a joke.
The man has been the Hand of the King to Joffrey I Baratheon and Brandon I Stark. He has been convicted of killing a King and his own father who happened to be the Hand of the King and the most powerful man in Westeros.
His association with Dany would earn him a long chapter dedicated to him as well.
New contributor
5
Minor nitpick even though it doesn't change your point, Tyrion was acting Hand of the King to Joffrey whilst Tywin was away with the war.
– TheLethalCarrot
yesterday
I think they left him out because he is an Imp.
– user1129682
yesterday
6
An imp who was the Hand to three different rulers. Absurd that they would leave him out.
– TargBot
yesterday
12
This is the correct answer. It was an (out-of-universe) joke, executed at the cost of a reasonable narrative.
– BlueRaja - Danny Pflughoeft
yesterday
2
"Complete and accurate history" -- as the current highest upvoted answer indicates, you fundamentally misunderstand the goals this Maester would have had in this setting. That was never the intent of the work, and everyone (who is educated, at least) in the world knows that.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
There is no plausible way of writing a complete and accurate history of events after Robert's rebellion without mentioning Tyrion. It was likely a joke.
The man has been the Hand of the King to Joffrey I Baratheon and Brandon I Stark. He has been convicted of killing a King and his own father who happened to be the Hand of the King and the most powerful man in Westeros.
His association with Dany would earn him a long chapter dedicated to him as well.
New contributor
There is no plausible way of writing a complete and accurate history of events after Robert's rebellion without mentioning Tyrion. It was likely a joke.
The man has been the Hand of the King to Joffrey I Baratheon and Brandon I Stark. He has been convicted of killing a King and his own father who happened to be the Hand of the King and the most powerful man in Westeros.
His association with Dany would earn him a long chapter dedicated to him as well.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
TargBotTargBot
55327
55327
New contributor
New contributor
5
Minor nitpick even though it doesn't change your point, Tyrion was acting Hand of the King to Joffrey whilst Tywin was away with the war.
– TheLethalCarrot
yesterday
I think they left him out because he is an Imp.
– user1129682
yesterday
6
An imp who was the Hand to three different rulers. Absurd that they would leave him out.
– TargBot
yesterday
12
This is the correct answer. It was an (out-of-universe) joke, executed at the cost of a reasonable narrative.
– BlueRaja - Danny Pflughoeft
yesterday
2
"Complete and accurate history" -- as the current highest upvoted answer indicates, you fundamentally misunderstand the goals this Maester would have had in this setting. That was never the intent of the work, and everyone (who is educated, at least) in the world knows that.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
5
Minor nitpick even though it doesn't change your point, Tyrion was acting Hand of the King to Joffrey whilst Tywin was away with the war.
– TheLethalCarrot
yesterday
I think they left him out because he is an Imp.
– user1129682
yesterday
6
An imp who was the Hand to three different rulers. Absurd that they would leave him out.
– TargBot
yesterday
12
This is the correct answer. It was an (out-of-universe) joke, executed at the cost of a reasonable narrative.
– BlueRaja - Danny Pflughoeft
yesterday
2
"Complete and accurate history" -- as the current highest upvoted answer indicates, you fundamentally misunderstand the goals this Maester would have had in this setting. That was never the intent of the work, and everyone (who is educated, at least) in the world knows that.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
5
5
Minor nitpick even though it doesn't change your point, Tyrion was acting Hand of the King to Joffrey whilst Tywin was away with the war.
– TheLethalCarrot
yesterday
Minor nitpick even though it doesn't change your point, Tyrion was acting Hand of the King to Joffrey whilst Tywin was away with the war.
– TheLethalCarrot
yesterday
I think they left him out because he is an Imp.
– user1129682
yesterday
I think they left him out because he is an Imp.
– user1129682
yesterday
6
6
An imp who was the Hand to three different rulers. Absurd that they would leave him out.
– TargBot
yesterday
An imp who was the Hand to three different rulers. Absurd that they would leave him out.
– TargBot
yesterday
12
12
This is the correct answer. It was an (out-of-universe) joke, executed at the cost of a reasonable narrative.
– BlueRaja - Danny Pflughoeft
yesterday
This is the correct answer. It was an (out-of-universe) joke, executed at the cost of a reasonable narrative.
– BlueRaja - Danny Pflughoeft
yesterday
2
2
"Complete and accurate history" -- as the current highest upvoted answer indicates, you fundamentally misunderstand the goals this Maester would have had in this setting. That was never the intent of the work, and everyone (who is educated, at least) in the world knows that.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
"Complete and accurate history" -- as the current highest upvoted answer indicates, you fundamentally misunderstand the goals this Maester would have had in this setting. That was never the intent of the work, and everyone (who is educated, at least) in the world knows that.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else. Therefore, unless Maester Ebrose was unusually scrupulous, he would be focusing not only on which events actually occurred, but also on telling a story. He would want this story to have a satisfying and tidy narrative, so that people would read and enjoy his book, and he would want to tell a story that was acceptable in the political climate he was writing in, so that he could keep his enviviable position as archmaester.
History books focus on figureheads
People like reading stories about Lords and Ladies, Princes and Princesses, Kings and Queens. Their entourages are of less interest. No matter how important they are behind the scenes, advisors and councillors are unlikely to get a mention. Even for a position as important as Hand of The King, it makes for a better story to simply pretend that it was the monarch themselves who made the decisions and gave the commands. This is highlighted rather touchingly by Varys after the Battle of Blackwater.
There are many who know that without you this city faced certain defeat. The King won't give you any honours, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget.
Varys' prediction was correct. Although Tyrion was highborn and Hand to several Kings and Queens, he was never the ruler of any of the great houses or any of the Seven Kingdoms. (This situation might have changed since the end of Ebrose's book, due to the deaths of every other member of House Lannister.) Therefore his actions would not necessarily merit inclusion in a history.
Tyrion's victory at Blackwater is King Joffery's victory. The fact that Tyrion was convicted of Joffery's murder is irrelevant since it was later revealed that the murderer was Lady Olenna Tyrell. The commands Tyrion gave as Hand of The Queen would have been attributed to Daenerys Targaryen. The one action that he might have been granted credit for was the murder of his father Tywin, but (assuming it was even public knowledge) Maester Ebrose would have found it awkward to include this fact.
It would have been politically unwise to mention him
Westeros is now totally controlled by the Starks. They rule the Night's Watch, The North and The Six Kingdoms. Furthermore they've appointed a close personal friend as Grand Maester. Therefore Maester Ebrose would wish to avoid publishing anything that would offend them or cast them in a bad light.
Likewise Tyrion is in a very powerful position as Hand of The King, so Maester Ebrose would also wish to avoid offending him.
This puts Ebrose in a difficult position since Tyrion spent almost all of the wars serving those fighting against the Starks. If he mentioned Tyrion in a flattering way it would make the Starks look worse. If he mentioned Tyrion in an unflattering way then Tyrion might have retaliated. It's hard to mention him in a neutral way because Tyrion spent all his time associating with the Starks' enemies. Worst of all, Tyrion's main achievement was his victory at Blackwater against Stannis, the very man that Ned Stark was executed for supporting.
So Maester Ebrose took the easy solution and simply didn't mention Tyrion at all. This ran the slight risk of offending Tyrion by diminishing his importance, but the risk was less than that of writing something that could have directly offended Tyrion or the Starks.
New contributor
7
"The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else." - This corresponds to the fact that the Three Eyed Raven is 'the memory of the world' and the books of the Maesters in the Citadel isn't - History books reflect the story the writer/victor want to tell, not the accurate historical context. Nice point!
– Cinderhaze
yesterday
4
Adding to your point in the first paragraph, one of the most commonly cited historians on Ancient Greece (Herodotus) is referred to by some as "The Father of Lies" for his many apocryphal stories. Many ancient historians were story-tellers who heavily edited their stories for dramatic effect.
– kuhl
yesterday
3
@MikeScott A relationship never consummated so never formally cemented. At least as far as Ramsay was concerned. In any case, it makes it easy to wipe away something that, formally speaking, never really existed in the first place.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
10
@MikeScott Ebrose would then have to explain why they weren't still married. Tyrion wouldn't appreciate the world being reminded of the fact that he never consummated the marriage. To us it's a sign of his good character that he refused to rape Sansa despite pressure from his family to do so. But to the kind of people the Hand of The King has to deal with, it would be a sign of weakness, unmanliness or impotence. Since the marriage was never valid anyway, it's possible to simply not mention it.
– Oscar Cunningham
yesterday
4
And +1 from me simply for reminding us of that Varys quote. Makes it quite clear that the history books would not be written for accuracy, and this is to be expected by the (educated) people of this world.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else. Therefore, unless Maester Ebrose was unusually scrupulous, he would be focusing not only on which events actually occurred, but also on telling a story. He would want this story to have a satisfying and tidy narrative, so that people would read and enjoy his book, and he would want to tell a story that was acceptable in the political climate he was writing in, so that he could keep his enviviable position as archmaester.
History books focus on figureheads
People like reading stories about Lords and Ladies, Princes and Princesses, Kings and Queens. Their entourages are of less interest. No matter how important they are behind the scenes, advisors and councillors are unlikely to get a mention. Even for a position as important as Hand of The King, it makes for a better story to simply pretend that it was the monarch themselves who made the decisions and gave the commands. This is highlighted rather touchingly by Varys after the Battle of Blackwater.
There are many who know that without you this city faced certain defeat. The King won't give you any honours, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget.
Varys' prediction was correct. Although Tyrion was highborn and Hand to several Kings and Queens, he was never the ruler of any of the great houses or any of the Seven Kingdoms. (This situation might have changed since the end of Ebrose's book, due to the deaths of every other member of House Lannister.) Therefore his actions would not necessarily merit inclusion in a history.
Tyrion's victory at Blackwater is King Joffery's victory. The fact that Tyrion was convicted of Joffery's murder is irrelevant since it was later revealed that the murderer was Lady Olenna Tyrell. The commands Tyrion gave as Hand of The Queen would have been attributed to Daenerys Targaryen. The one action that he might have been granted credit for was the murder of his father Tywin, but (assuming it was even public knowledge) Maester Ebrose would have found it awkward to include this fact.
It would have been politically unwise to mention him
Westeros is now totally controlled by the Starks. They rule the Night's Watch, The North and The Six Kingdoms. Furthermore they've appointed a close personal friend as Grand Maester. Therefore Maester Ebrose would wish to avoid publishing anything that would offend them or cast them in a bad light.
Likewise Tyrion is in a very powerful position as Hand of The King, so Maester Ebrose would also wish to avoid offending him.
This puts Ebrose in a difficult position since Tyrion spent almost all of the wars serving those fighting against the Starks. If he mentioned Tyrion in a flattering way it would make the Starks look worse. If he mentioned Tyrion in an unflattering way then Tyrion might have retaliated. It's hard to mention him in a neutral way because Tyrion spent all his time associating with the Starks' enemies. Worst of all, Tyrion's main achievement was his victory at Blackwater against Stannis, the very man that Ned Stark was executed for supporting.
So Maester Ebrose took the easy solution and simply didn't mention Tyrion at all. This ran the slight risk of offending Tyrion by diminishing his importance, but the risk was less than that of writing something that could have directly offended Tyrion or the Starks.
New contributor
7
"The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else." - This corresponds to the fact that the Three Eyed Raven is 'the memory of the world' and the books of the Maesters in the Citadel isn't - History books reflect the story the writer/victor want to tell, not the accurate historical context. Nice point!
– Cinderhaze
yesterday
4
Adding to your point in the first paragraph, one of the most commonly cited historians on Ancient Greece (Herodotus) is referred to by some as "The Father of Lies" for his many apocryphal stories. Many ancient historians were story-tellers who heavily edited their stories for dramatic effect.
– kuhl
yesterday
3
@MikeScott A relationship never consummated so never formally cemented. At least as far as Ramsay was concerned. In any case, it makes it easy to wipe away something that, formally speaking, never really existed in the first place.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
10
@MikeScott Ebrose would then have to explain why they weren't still married. Tyrion wouldn't appreciate the world being reminded of the fact that he never consummated the marriage. To us it's a sign of his good character that he refused to rape Sansa despite pressure from his family to do so. But to the kind of people the Hand of The King has to deal with, it would be a sign of weakness, unmanliness or impotence. Since the marriage was never valid anyway, it's possible to simply not mention it.
– Oscar Cunningham
yesterday
4
And +1 from me simply for reminding us of that Varys quote. Makes it quite clear that the history books would not be written for accuracy, and this is to be expected by the (educated) people of this world.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else. Therefore, unless Maester Ebrose was unusually scrupulous, he would be focusing not only on which events actually occurred, but also on telling a story. He would want this story to have a satisfying and tidy narrative, so that people would read and enjoy his book, and he would want to tell a story that was acceptable in the political climate he was writing in, so that he could keep his enviviable position as archmaester.
History books focus on figureheads
People like reading stories about Lords and Ladies, Princes and Princesses, Kings and Queens. Their entourages are of less interest. No matter how important they are behind the scenes, advisors and councillors are unlikely to get a mention. Even for a position as important as Hand of The King, it makes for a better story to simply pretend that it was the monarch themselves who made the decisions and gave the commands. This is highlighted rather touchingly by Varys after the Battle of Blackwater.
There are many who know that without you this city faced certain defeat. The King won't give you any honours, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget.
Varys' prediction was correct. Although Tyrion was highborn and Hand to several Kings and Queens, he was never the ruler of any of the great houses or any of the Seven Kingdoms. (This situation might have changed since the end of Ebrose's book, due to the deaths of every other member of House Lannister.) Therefore his actions would not necessarily merit inclusion in a history.
Tyrion's victory at Blackwater is King Joffery's victory. The fact that Tyrion was convicted of Joffery's murder is irrelevant since it was later revealed that the murderer was Lady Olenna Tyrell. The commands Tyrion gave as Hand of The Queen would have been attributed to Daenerys Targaryen. The one action that he might have been granted credit for was the murder of his father Tywin, but (assuming it was even public knowledge) Maester Ebrose would have found it awkward to include this fact.
It would have been politically unwise to mention him
Westeros is now totally controlled by the Starks. They rule the Night's Watch, The North and The Six Kingdoms. Furthermore they've appointed a close personal friend as Grand Maester. Therefore Maester Ebrose would wish to avoid publishing anything that would offend them or cast them in a bad light.
Likewise Tyrion is in a very powerful position as Hand of The King, so Maester Ebrose would also wish to avoid offending him.
This puts Ebrose in a difficult position since Tyrion spent almost all of the wars serving those fighting against the Starks. If he mentioned Tyrion in a flattering way it would make the Starks look worse. If he mentioned Tyrion in an unflattering way then Tyrion might have retaliated. It's hard to mention him in a neutral way because Tyrion spent all his time associating with the Starks' enemies. Worst of all, Tyrion's main achievement was his victory at Blackwater against Stannis, the very man that Ned Stark was executed for supporting.
So Maester Ebrose took the easy solution and simply didn't mention Tyrion at all. This ran the slight risk of offending Tyrion by diminishing his importance, but the risk was less than that of writing something that could have directly offended Tyrion or the Starks.
New contributor
The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else. Therefore, unless Maester Ebrose was unusually scrupulous, he would be focusing not only on which events actually occurred, but also on telling a story. He would want this story to have a satisfying and tidy narrative, so that people would read and enjoy his book, and he would want to tell a story that was acceptable in the political climate he was writing in, so that he could keep his enviviable position as archmaester.
History books focus on figureheads
People like reading stories about Lords and Ladies, Princes and Princesses, Kings and Queens. Their entourages are of less interest. No matter how important they are behind the scenes, advisors and councillors are unlikely to get a mention. Even for a position as important as Hand of The King, it makes for a better story to simply pretend that it was the monarch themselves who made the decisions and gave the commands. This is highlighted rather touchingly by Varys after the Battle of Blackwater.
There are many who know that without you this city faced certain defeat. The King won't give you any honours, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget.
Varys' prediction was correct. Although Tyrion was highborn and Hand to several Kings and Queens, he was never the ruler of any of the great houses or any of the Seven Kingdoms. (This situation might have changed since the end of Ebrose's book, due to the deaths of every other member of House Lannister.) Therefore his actions would not necessarily merit inclusion in a history.
Tyrion's victory at Blackwater is King Joffery's victory. The fact that Tyrion was convicted of Joffery's murder is irrelevant since it was later revealed that the murderer was Lady Olenna Tyrell. The commands Tyrion gave as Hand of The Queen would have been attributed to Daenerys Targaryen. The one action that he might have been granted credit for was the murder of his father Tywin, but (assuming it was even public knowledge) Maester Ebrose would have found it awkward to include this fact.
It would have been politically unwise to mention him
Westeros is now totally controlled by the Starks. They rule the Night's Watch, The North and The Six Kingdoms. Furthermore they've appointed a close personal friend as Grand Maester. Therefore Maester Ebrose would wish to avoid publishing anything that would offend them or cast them in a bad light.
Likewise Tyrion is in a very powerful position as Hand of The King, so Maester Ebrose would also wish to avoid offending him.
This puts Ebrose in a difficult position since Tyrion spent almost all of the wars serving those fighting against the Starks. If he mentioned Tyrion in a flattering way it would make the Starks look worse. If he mentioned Tyrion in an unflattering way then Tyrion might have retaliated. It's hard to mention him in a neutral way because Tyrion spent all his time associating with the Starks' enemies. Worst of all, Tyrion's main achievement was his victory at Blackwater against Stannis, the very man that Ned Stark was executed for supporting.
So Maester Ebrose took the easy solution and simply didn't mention Tyrion at all. This ran the slight risk of offending Tyrion by diminishing his importance, but the risk was less than that of writing something that could have directly offended Tyrion or the Starks.
New contributor
edited yesterday
New contributor
answered yesterday
Oscar CunninghamOscar Cunningham
842157
842157
New contributor
New contributor
7
"The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else." - This corresponds to the fact that the Three Eyed Raven is 'the memory of the world' and the books of the Maesters in the Citadel isn't - History books reflect the story the writer/victor want to tell, not the accurate historical context. Nice point!
– Cinderhaze
yesterday
4
Adding to your point in the first paragraph, one of the most commonly cited historians on Ancient Greece (Herodotus) is referred to by some as "The Father of Lies" for his many apocryphal stories. Many ancient historians were story-tellers who heavily edited their stories for dramatic effect.
– kuhl
yesterday
3
@MikeScott A relationship never consummated so never formally cemented. At least as far as Ramsay was concerned. In any case, it makes it easy to wipe away something that, formally speaking, never really existed in the first place.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
10
@MikeScott Ebrose would then have to explain why they weren't still married. Tyrion wouldn't appreciate the world being reminded of the fact that he never consummated the marriage. To us it's a sign of his good character that he refused to rape Sansa despite pressure from his family to do so. But to the kind of people the Hand of The King has to deal with, it would be a sign of weakness, unmanliness or impotence. Since the marriage was never valid anyway, it's possible to simply not mention it.
– Oscar Cunningham
yesterday
4
And +1 from me simply for reminding us of that Varys quote. Makes it quite clear that the history books would not be written for accuracy, and this is to be expected by the (educated) people of this world.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
7
"The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else." - This corresponds to the fact that the Three Eyed Raven is 'the memory of the world' and the books of the Maesters in the Citadel isn't - History books reflect the story the writer/victor want to tell, not the accurate historical context. Nice point!
– Cinderhaze
yesterday
4
Adding to your point in the first paragraph, one of the most commonly cited historians on Ancient Greece (Herodotus) is referred to by some as "The Father of Lies" for his many apocryphal stories. Many ancient historians were story-tellers who heavily edited their stories for dramatic effect.
– kuhl
yesterday
3
@MikeScott A relationship never consummated so never formally cemented. At least as far as Ramsay was concerned. In any case, it makes it easy to wipe away something that, formally speaking, never really existed in the first place.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
10
@MikeScott Ebrose would then have to explain why they weren't still married. Tyrion wouldn't appreciate the world being reminded of the fact that he never consummated the marriage. To us it's a sign of his good character that he refused to rape Sansa despite pressure from his family to do so. But to the kind of people the Hand of The King has to deal with, it would be a sign of weakness, unmanliness or impotence. Since the marriage was never valid anyway, it's possible to simply not mention it.
– Oscar Cunningham
yesterday
4
And +1 from me simply for reminding us of that Varys quote. Makes it quite clear that the history books would not be written for accuracy, and this is to be expected by the (educated) people of this world.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
7
7
"The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else." - This corresponds to the fact that the Three Eyed Raven is 'the memory of the world' and the books of the Maesters in the Citadel isn't - History books reflect the story the writer/victor want to tell, not the accurate historical context. Nice point!
– Cinderhaze
yesterday
"The history books of Westeros, like those of the corresponding era of Europe, do not prize accuracy above all else." - This corresponds to the fact that the Three Eyed Raven is 'the memory of the world' and the books of the Maesters in the Citadel isn't - History books reflect the story the writer/victor want to tell, not the accurate historical context. Nice point!
– Cinderhaze
yesterday
4
4
Adding to your point in the first paragraph, one of the most commonly cited historians on Ancient Greece (Herodotus) is referred to by some as "The Father of Lies" for his many apocryphal stories. Many ancient historians were story-tellers who heavily edited their stories for dramatic effect.
– kuhl
yesterday
Adding to your point in the first paragraph, one of the most commonly cited historians on Ancient Greece (Herodotus) is referred to by some as "The Father of Lies" for his many apocryphal stories. Many ancient historians were story-tellers who heavily edited their stories for dramatic effect.
– kuhl
yesterday
3
3
@MikeScott A relationship never consummated so never formally cemented. At least as far as Ramsay was concerned. In any case, it makes it easy to wipe away something that, formally speaking, never really existed in the first place.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
@MikeScott A relationship never consummated so never formally cemented. At least as far as Ramsay was concerned. In any case, it makes it easy to wipe away something that, formally speaking, never really existed in the first place.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
10
10
@MikeScott Ebrose would then have to explain why they weren't still married. Tyrion wouldn't appreciate the world being reminded of the fact that he never consummated the marriage. To us it's a sign of his good character that he refused to rape Sansa despite pressure from his family to do so. But to the kind of people the Hand of The King has to deal with, it would be a sign of weakness, unmanliness or impotence. Since the marriage was never valid anyway, it's possible to simply not mention it.
– Oscar Cunningham
yesterday
@MikeScott Ebrose would then have to explain why they weren't still married. Tyrion wouldn't appreciate the world being reminded of the fact that he never consummated the marriage. To us it's a sign of his good character that he refused to rape Sansa despite pressure from his family to do so. But to the kind of people the Hand of The King has to deal with, it would be a sign of weakness, unmanliness or impotence. Since the marriage was never valid anyway, it's possible to simply not mention it.
– Oscar Cunningham
yesterday
4
4
And +1 from me simply for reminding us of that Varys quote. Makes it quite clear that the history books would not be written for accuracy, and this is to be expected by the (educated) people of this world.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
And +1 from me simply for reminding us of that Varys quote. Makes it quite clear that the history books would not be written for accuracy, and this is to be expected by the (educated) people of this world.
– zibadawa timmy
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
I see people are trying to come up with in-universe explanations, but I strongly think that the reason is this:
The writers simply wanted to make yet another joke within the larger joke that was the whole scene.
Besides amusement, they also wanted to emphasise that Tyrion played a huge role in obtaining the final peace, and ironically nobody would ever know.
3
I consider statements like these to be pandering non-answers. Of course the writers are trying to make jokes at times. When you've got Bronn there smirking from Dorne to The Wall it is patently obvious that this was constructed to be a humorous event to the viewer. We don't need to be reminded of that. The OP isn't even specifically asking for out-of-universe explanations—which we generally require to have an actual source (quoting an interview with Benioff and Weiss, say)—or demonstrating a fundamental inability to grasp the obvious humor.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
add a comment |
I see people are trying to come up with in-universe explanations, but I strongly think that the reason is this:
The writers simply wanted to make yet another joke within the larger joke that was the whole scene.
Besides amusement, they also wanted to emphasise that Tyrion played a huge role in obtaining the final peace, and ironically nobody would ever know.
3
I consider statements like these to be pandering non-answers. Of course the writers are trying to make jokes at times. When you've got Bronn there smirking from Dorne to The Wall it is patently obvious that this was constructed to be a humorous event to the viewer. We don't need to be reminded of that. The OP isn't even specifically asking for out-of-universe explanations—which we generally require to have an actual source (quoting an interview with Benioff and Weiss, say)—or demonstrating a fundamental inability to grasp the obvious humor.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
add a comment |
I see people are trying to come up with in-universe explanations, but I strongly think that the reason is this:
The writers simply wanted to make yet another joke within the larger joke that was the whole scene.
Besides amusement, they also wanted to emphasise that Tyrion played a huge role in obtaining the final peace, and ironically nobody would ever know.
I see people are trying to come up with in-universe explanations, but I strongly think that the reason is this:
The writers simply wanted to make yet another joke within the larger joke that was the whole scene.
Besides amusement, they also wanted to emphasise that Tyrion played a huge role in obtaining the final peace, and ironically nobody would ever know.
answered yesterday
Bogdan AlexandruBogdan Alexandru
92521323
92521323
3
I consider statements like these to be pandering non-answers. Of course the writers are trying to make jokes at times. When you've got Bronn there smirking from Dorne to The Wall it is patently obvious that this was constructed to be a humorous event to the viewer. We don't need to be reminded of that. The OP isn't even specifically asking for out-of-universe explanations—which we generally require to have an actual source (quoting an interview with Benioff and Weiss, say)—or demonstrating a fundamental inability to grasp the obvious humor.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
add a comment |
3
I consider statements like these to be pandering non-answers. Of course the writers are trying to make jokes at times. When you've got Bronn there smirking from Dorne to The Wall it is patently obvious that this was constructed to be a humorous event to the viewer. We don't need to be reminded of that. The OP isn't even specifically asking for out-of-universe explanations—which we generally require to have an actual source (quoting an interview with Benioff and Weiss, say)—or demonstrating a fundamental inability to grasp the obvious humor.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
3
3
I consider statements like these to be pandering non-answers. Of course the writers are trying to make jokes at times. When you've got Bronn there smirking from Dorne to The Wall it is patently obvious that this was constructed to be a humorous event to the viewer. We don't need to be reminded of that. The OP isn't even specifically asking for out-of-universe explanations—which we generally require to have an actual source (quoting an interview with Benioff and Weiss, say)—or demonstrating a fundamental inability to grasp the obvious humor.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
I consider statements like these to be pandering non-answers. Of course the writers are trying to make jokes at times. When you've got Bronn there smirking from Dorne to The Wall it is patently obvious that this was constructed to be a humorous event to the viewer. We don't need to be reminded of that. The OP isn't even specifically asking for out-of-universe explanations—which we generally require to have an actual source (quoting an interview with Benioff and Weiss, say)—or demonstrating a fundamental inability to grasp the obvious humor.
– zibadawa timmy
13 hours ago
add a comment |
This would be a nod to how the Maesters are not men of science, as we now know them, nor even historians as we now know them, as befits such men in the time period and setting most similar to their setting from our own history. The story has been recorded not to provide an accurate and factual retelling, but to provide the story. It was, apparently, this Maester's decision that Tyrion did not fit into the story he wanted to tell. A whore-mongering imp was not quite as stirring a character as warranted inclusion, perhaps.
add a comment |
This would be a nod to how the Maesters are not men of science, as we now know them, nor even historians as we now know them, as befits such men in the time period and setting most similar to their setting from our own history. The story has been recorded not to provide an accurate and factual retelling, but to provide the story. It was, apparently, this Maester's decision that Tyrion did not fit into the story he wanted to tell. A whore-mongering imp was not quite as stirring a character as warranted inclusion, perhaps.
add a comment |
This would be a nod to how the Maesters are not men of science, as we now know them, nor even historians as we now know them, as befits such men in the time period and setting most similar to their setting from our own history. The story has been recorded not to provide an accurate and factual retelling, but to provide the story. It was, apparently, this Maester's decision that Tyrion did not fit into the story he wanted to tell. A whore-mongering imp was not quite as stirring a character as warranted inclusion, perhaps.
This would be a nod to how the Maesters are not men of science, as we now know them, nor even historians as we now know them, as befits such men in the time period and setting most similar to their setting from our own history. The story has been recorded not to provide an accurate and factual retelling, but to provide the story. It was, apparently, this Maester's decision that Tyrion did not fit into the story he wanted to tell. A whore-mongering imp was not quite as stirring a character as warranted inclusion, perhaps.
answered yesterday
zibadawa timmyzibadawa timmy
1,857716
1,857716
add a comment |
add a comment |
The book was on the war of succession, and Tyrion did not play a big role in that. He did not try to claim the throne, he was not politically important as he was not a head of a house, and he did not lead armies in any significant battles.
His act as a hand will be attributed to the rulers he served, his marriage to Sansa was inconsequential, and the murder of Joffery and Tywin were probably attributed to their enemies.
Him being named hand of Brandon is probably outside of the scope of the book.
add a comment |
The book was on the war of succession, and Tyrion did not play a big role in that. He did not try to claim the throne, he was not politically important as he was not a head of a house, and he did not lead armies in any significant battles.
His act as a hand will be attributed to the rulers he served, his marriage to Sansa was inconsequential, and the murder of Joffery and Tywin were probably attributed to their enemies.
Him being named hand of Brandon is probably outside of the scope of the book.
add a comment |
The book was on the war of succession, and Tyrion did not play a big role in that. He did not try to claim the throne, he was not politically important as he was not a head of a house, and he did not lead armies in any significant battles.
His act as a hand will be attributed to the rulers he served, his marriage to Sansa was inconsequential, and the murder of Joffery and Tywin were probably attributed to their enemies.
Him being named hand of Brandon is probably outside of the scope of the book.
The book was on the war of succession, and Tyrion did not play a big role in that. He did not try to claim the throne, he was not politically important as he was not a head of a house, and he did not lead armies in any significant battles.
His act as a hand will be attributed to the rulers he served, his marriage to Sansa was inconsequential, and the murder of Joffery and Tywin were probably attributed to their enemies.
Him being named hand of Brandon is probably outside of the scope of the book.
answered yesterday
ventsyvventsyv
574313
574313
add a comment |
add a comment |
I believe this book is to mimic the books we read (also titled (as a whole) A Song of Ice and Fire). In the books Tyrion is certainly mentioned- but they make certain to spend a good deal of rime describing how hideous looking Tyrion is. I took this joke in the show to be Sam saying “no, no, you’re not even in it..” all sheepish and then Tyrion reading parts, smirking, rolling his eyes and closing the book- to be him seeing his description as a horrible looking moster-esque man and that was the joke...
New contributor
add a comment |
I believe this book is to mimic the books we read (also titled (as a whole) A Song of Ice and Fire). In the books Tyrion is certainly mentioned- but they make certain to spend a good deal of rime describing how hideous looking Tyrion is. I took this joke in the show to be Sam saying “no, no, you’re not even in it..” all sheepish and then Tyrion reading parts, smirking, rolling his eyes and closing the book- to be him seeing his description as a horrible looking moster-esque man and that was the joke...
New contributor
add a comment |
I believe this book is to mimic the books we read (also titled (as a whole) A Song of Ice and Fire). In the books Tyrion is certainly mentioned- but they make certain to spend a good deal of rime describing how hideous looking Tyrion is. I took this joke in the show to be Sam saying “no, no, you’re not even in it..” all sheepish and then Tyrion reading parts, smirking, rolling his eyes and closing the book- to be him seeing his description as a horrible looking moster-esque man and that was the joke...
New contributor
I believe this book is to mimic the books we read (also titled (as a whole) A Song of Ice and Fire). In the books Tyrion is certainly mentioned- but they make certain to spend a good deal of rime describing how hideous looking Tyrion is. I took this joke in the show to be Sam saying “no, no, you’re not even in it..” all sheepish and then Tyrion reading parts, smirking, rolling his eyes and closing the book- to be him seeing his description as a horrible looking moster-esque man and that was the joke...
New contributor
edited yesterday
TheLethalCarrot
59.6k24387434
59.6k24387434
New contributor
answered yesterday
Sara LongSara Long
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
My guess. There are only two living males of major houses with the ability to reproduce. Jon went into the book as a bastard. And Tyrion is excluded. The wheel stays broken
New contributor
add a comment |
My guess. There are only two living males of major houses with the ability to reproduce. Jon went into the book as a bastard. And Tyrion is excluded. The wheel stays broken
New contributor
add a comment |
My guess. There are only two living males of major houses with the ability to reproduce. Jon went into the book as a bastard. And Tyrion is excluded. The wheel stays broken
New contributor
My guess. There are only two living males of major houses with the ability to reproduce. Jon went into the book as a bastard. And Tyrion is excluded. The wheel stays broken
New contributor
New contributor
answered 23 hours ago
Max GopalanMax Gopalan
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Alec A is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Alec A is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Alec A is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Alec A is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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23
I thought Sam was making a joke. He's twice the Hand of the King/Queen which is an important position
– KharoBangdo
yesterday
15
I just checked... and there are several mentions of Tyrion in my copy... although I have the Kindle version if that makes any difference.
– TGnat
yesterday
6
In context, the whole sequence was filled with jokes: What is the punchline to Tyrion Lannister joke about the jackass and the honeycomb?
– Cœur
23 hours ago