What is the maximal acceptable delay between pilot's input and flight control surface actuation?What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?How does the Airbus flight computer's voting system work?How does auto-trim work on fly-by-wire aircraft?In an aircraft with tab-flown control surfaces, how can a jammed surface be detected during preflight examinations or flight control checks?What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?Why did fly-by-wire systems take so long to implement?How does the Boeing 777's yoke of both the captain and the first officer have synchronized movement?What sort of control mechanisms (i.e., PID controllers) do modern FBW aircraft use?Why didn’t the space shuttle have flight control manual-reversion capability?What is the input range of common fly-by-wire controls?
Can users with the same $HOME have separate bash histories?
When you have to wait for a short time
Fishing from underwater domes
Could these polynomials be identified?
Is there anything in the universe that cannot be compressed?
D Scale Question
Ways you can end up paying interest on a credit card if you pay the full amount back in due time
Colored grid with coordinates on all sides?
Calculate Landau's function
Displaying Time in HH:MM Format
Cheap oscilloscope showing 16 MHz square wave
Heuristic argument for the Riemann Hypothesis
Can authors email you PDFs of their textbook for free?
How to have the "Restore Missing Files" function from Nautilus without installing Nautilus?
Given a specific computer system, is it possible to estimate the actual precise run time of a piece of Assembly code
Are there consequences for not filing a DMCA (any country)
Correct way of simplifying the result of an integral
How can I store milk for long periods of time?
Why don't "echo -e" commands seem to produce the right output?
Can a country avoid prosecution for crimes against humanity by denying it happened?
What are the electrical characteristics of a PC gameport?
Missing $ inserted. Extra }, or forgotten $. Missing } inserted
To minimize the Hausdorff distance between convex polygonal regions
Why is the output of this find -newermt command apparently not in order?
What is the maximal acceptable delay between pilot's input and flight control surface actuation?
What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?How does the Airbus flight computer's voting system work?How does auto-trim work on fly-by-wire aircraft?In an aircraft with tab-flown control surfaces, how can a jammed surface be detected during preflight examinations or flight control checks?What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?Why did fly-by-wire systems take so long to implement?How does the Boeing 777's yoke of both the captain and the first officer have synchronized movement?What sort of control mechanisms (i.e., PID controllers) do modern FBW aircraft use?Why didn’t the space shuttle have flight control manual-reversion capability?What is the input range of common fly-by-wire controls?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
While I was watching a cockpit video of an A330 landing in which the pilot was frenetically moving its sidestick, I wander what was the reaction time of this flight by wire system. Indeed, the time for transmiting the signal from the sidestick to flight computer, the time for computer to interpret all its inputs (pilot's input, probes,...) and to decide to act on flight control surfaces, the aircraft's reaction is not instantaneous.
Then, I realize that whatever the transmission system, there are delay between pilot's input and air control surfaces movement (material's elasticity, time for hydraulic fluid to transmit pressure, other mechanism I can't imagine).
Thus my question is: is there a maximal delay between pilot's input and flight control surface deflection to certify an aircraft?
If needed, for the FBW system, a direct law can be considered (no complex computation as flight control surface movement is proportional to input)
If needed, the question can be restricted to airliners flying under FAA and EASA jurisdictions.
EDIT: given the first feedback (comments, edits, answer), I want to highlight this question is not restricted to flight-by-wire (transmitting pilot's input through mechanical links may also induce delay)
flight-controls regulations aircraft-certification fly-by-wire
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I was watching a cockpit video of an A330 landing in which the pilot was frenetically moving its sidestick, I wander what was the reaction time of this flight by wire system. Indeed, the time for transmiting the signal from the sidestick to flight computer, the time for computer to interpret all its inputs (pilot's input, probes,...) and to decide to act on flight control surfaces, the aircraft's reaction is not instantaneous.
Then, I realize that whatever the transmission system, there are delay between pilot's input and air control surfaces movement (material's elasticity, time for hydraulic fluid to transmit pressure, other mechanism I can't imagine).
Thus my question is: is there a maximal delay between pilot's input and flight control surface deflection to certify an aircraft?
If needed, for the FBW system, a direct law can be considered (no complex computation as flight control surface movement is proportional to input)
If needed, the question can be restricted to airliners flying under FAA and EASA jurisdictions.
EDIT: given the first feedback (comments, edits, answer), I want to highlight this question is not restricted to flight-by-wire (transmitting pilot's input through mechanical links may also induce delay)
flight-controls regulations aircraft-certification fly-by-wire
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Related: What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I was watching a cockpit video of an A330 landing in which the pilot was frenetically moving its sidestick, I wander what was the reaction time of this flight by wire system. Indeed, the time for transmiting the signal from the sidestick to flight computer, the time for computer to interpret all its inputs (pilot's input, probes,...) and to decide to act on flight control surfaces, the aircraft's reaction is not instantaneous.
Then, I realize that whatever the transmission system, there are delay between pilot's input and air control surfaces movement (material's elasticity, time for hydraulic fluid to transmit pressure, other mechanism I can't imagine).
Thus my question is: is there a maximal delay between pilot's input and flight control surface deflection to certify an aircraft?
If needed, for the FBW system, a direct law can be considered (no complex computation as flight control surface movement is proportional to input)
If needed, the question can be restricted to airliners flying under FAA and EASA jurisdictions.
EDIT: given the first feedback (comments, edits, answer), I want to highlight this question is not restricted to flight-by-wire (transmitting pilot's input through mechanical links may also induce delay)
flight-controls regulations aircraft-certification fly-by-wire
$endgroup$
While I was watching a cockpit video of an A330 landing in which the pilot was frenetically moving its sidestick, I wander what was the reaction time of this flight by wire system. Indeed, the time for transmiting the signal from the sidestick to flight computer, the time for computer to interpret all its inputs (pilot's input, probes,...) and to decide to act on flight control surfaces, the aircraft's reaction is not instantaneous.
Then, I realize that whatever the transmission system, there are delay between pilot's input and air control surfaces movement (material's elasticity, time for hydraulic fluid to transmit pressure, other mechanism I can't imagine).
Thus my question is: is there a maximal delay between pilot's input and flight control surface deflection to certify an aircraft?
If needed, for the FBW system, a direct law can be considered (no complex computation as flight control surface movement is proportional to input)
If needed, the question can be restricted to airliners flying under FAA and EASA jurisdictions.
EDIT: given the first feedback (comments, edits, answer), I want to highlight this question is not restricted to flight-by-wire (transmitting pilot's input through mechanical links may also induce delay)
flight-controls regulations aircraft-certification fly-by-wire
flight-controls regulations aircraft-certification fly-by-wire
edited 6 hours ago
Manu H
asked 8 hours ago
Manu HManu H
6,13512 gold badges65 silver badges151 bronze badges
6,13512 gold badges65 silver badges151 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Related: What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
7 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Related: What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Related: What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Related: What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
7 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Excessive phase lag is a direct contributor to Type I Pilot-Induced Oscillation (PIO). Phase lag comes from:
- Rigid body dynamics of the aircraft (e.g. delay between elevator surface and pitch rate response)
- Actuators (finite acceleration time between input and desired surface angle)
- Structural compliance (e.g. cable friction)
- Transport delay in signals
- Finite computational bandwidth (e.g. loop closure bandwidth)
From NASA Report 4683, PIO susceptibility can be expressed assuming the pilot is compensatory; that is, in a full blown PIO, the pilot input and the aircraft response would be exactly in phase, except for a constant time delay (across frequencies). This model is expressed as:
$$G(s)=fracKse^-tau_e s$$
where $tau_e$ is the effective time delay.
From its research, it found that an effective time delay larger than 0.3 sec leads to PIO issues. Therefore, I would say that 0.3 sec is the upper bound of the overall time delay of the total aircraft (in another word, its phase rate), end to end.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is quite some experience in this in Level D simulators, which have computer generated responses that must match those of the original aircraft, within tight tolerances.
A couple of decades ago, the gold standard for Unix real time host computers was 30 Hz. So 30 times per second, all of the following was computed:
- Surface deflection from stick input, including cable stretch, oil flow simulation etc.
- Aerodynamic hinge moments on the surface.
- Hydraulic hinge moments exerted by the actuators.
- Aerodynamic forces amd moments on the aeroplane.
- Inertial response of the aeroplane.
- Visual system response.
- Motion system response.
- All other system states and responses.
With an update rate of 30 Hz the standard was deemed acceptable for Level D zero flight time training, which implies a time delay of 1 frame = 0.0333 sec. So we know that this is fast enough: frequency rate 30 Hz, time delay 0.0333 sec.
As an aside, for present day computers this iteration rate is something to smile at, the code that ran @ 30Hz on a state of the art realtime unix machine runs @ 3000Hz on a Macbook Pro now.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Computation time isn't the only time delay. More pronounced time delays include transport delay in signals and confirmation delays (should they exist).
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Jimmy Indeed. 30 Hz in the simulator computer was fast enough to include all signal and other delays that occur in the aeroplane though.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is a classic problem in control system theory. The condition to be avoided at all costs is the case where the pilot's control actions get out of phase with the movements of the plane, so the sidestick-action makes the oscillations worse instead of damping them out.
The two ways that could happen are 1) if there are significant processing time delays in the control system connected to the sidestick and 2) if there are significant delays in the pilot's reactions.
As pointed out above, the control system time lags are tiny compared to the time constants of the plane's responses to aileron movement, etc. and the significant time lag in the overall system consisting of plane + pilot + computer control system is in the PILOT, not the control system.
This gives rise to something called PID or pilot-induced oscillation, where the response time lag of the pilot pushes the whole system into divergent oscillation- as for example in the case of a pilot porpoising a plane down the runway after bouncing off the runway on his or her initial touchdown.
I do not know if computerized flight control systems contain subroutines that prevent PID but perhaps Peter Kaempf knows!
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
PIO, not PID... PID is a control system method used in things like autopilots (PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative, and also Process Instrumentation Diagram).
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "528"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f68322%2fwhat-is-the-maximal-acceptable-delay-between-pilots-input-and-flight-control-su%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Excessive phase lag is a direct contributor to Type I Pilot-Induced Oscillation (PIO). Phase lag comes from:
- Rigid body dynamics of the aircraft (e.g. delay between elevator surface and pitch rate response)
- Actuators (finite acceleration time between input and desired surface angle)
- Structural compliance (e.g. cable friction)
- Transport delay in signals
- Finite computational bandwidth (e.g. loop closure bandwidth)
From NASA Report 4683, PIO susceptibility can be expressed assuming the pilot is compensatory; that is, in a full blown PIO, the pilot input and the aircraft response would be exactly in phase, except for a constant time delay (across frequencies). This model is expressed as:
$$G(s)=fracKse^-tau_e s$$
where $tau_e$ is the effective time delay.
From its research, it found that an effective time delay larger than 0.3 sec leads to PIO issues. Therefore, I would say that 0.3 sec is the upper bound of the overall time delay of the total aircraft (in another word, its phase rate), end to end.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Excessive phase lag is a direct contributor to Type I Pilot-Induced Oscillation (PIO). Phase lag comes from:
- Rigid body dynamics of the aircraft (e.g. delay between elevator surface and pitch rate response)
- Actuators (finite acceleration time between input and desired surface angle)
- Structural compliance (e.g. cable friction)
- Transport delay in signals
- Finite computational bandwidth (e.g. loop closure bandwidth)
From NASA Report 4683, PIO susceptibility can be expressed assuming the pilot is compensatory; that is, in a full blown PIO, the pilot input and the aircraft response would be exactly in phase, except for a constant time delay (across frequencies). This model is expressed as:
$$G(s)=fracKse^-tau_e s$$
where $tau_e$ is the effective time delay.
From its research, it found that an effective time delay larger than 0.3 sec leads to PIO issues. Therefore, I would say that 0.3 sec is the upper bound of the overall time delay of the total aircraft (in another word, its phase rate), end to end.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Excessive phase lag is a direct contributor to Type I Pilot-Induced Oscillation (PIO). Phase lag comes from:
- Rigid body dynamics of the aircraft (e.g. delay between elevator surface and pitch rate response)
- Actuators (finite acceleration time between input and desired surface angle)
- Structural compliance (e.g. cable friction)
- Transport delay in signals
- Finite computational bandwidth (e.g. loop closure bandwidth)
From NASA Report 4683, PIO susceptibility can be expressed assuming the pilot is compensatory; that is, in a full blown PIO, the pilot input and the aircraft response would be exactly in phase, except for a constant time delay (across frequencies). This model is expressed as:
$$G(s)=fracKse^-tau_e s$$
where $tau_e$ is the effective time delay.
From its research, it found that an effective time delay larger than 0.3 sec leads to PIO issues. Therefore, I would say that 0.3 sec is the upper bound of the overall time delay of the total aircraft (in another word, its phase rate), end to end.
$endgroup$
Excessive phase lag is a direct contributor to Type I Pilot-Induced Oscillation (PIO). Phase lag comes from:
- Rigid body dynamics of the aircraft (e.g. delay between elevator surface and pitch rate response)
- Actuators (finite acceleration time between input and desired surface angle)
- Structural compliance (e.g. cable friction)
- Transport delay in signals
- Finite computational bandwidth (e.g. loop closure bandwidth)
From NASA Report 4683, PIO susceptibility can be expressed assuming the pilot is compensatory; that is, in a full blown PIO, the pilot input and the aircraft response would be exactly in phase, except for a constant time delay (across frequencies). This model is expressed as:
$$G(s)=fracKse^-tau_e s$$
where $tau_e$ is the effective time delay.
From its research, it found that an effective time delay larger than 0.3 sec leads to PIO issues. Therefore, I would say that 0.3 sec is the upper bound of the overall time delay of the total aircraft (in another word, its phase rate), end to end.
answered 2 hours ago
JimmyJimmy
1,9454 silver badges20 bronze badges
1,9454 silver badges20 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is quite some experience in this in Level D simulators, which have computer generated responses that must match those of the original aircraft, within tight tolerances.
A couple of decades ago, the gold standard for Unix real time host computers was 30 Hz. So 30 times per second, all of the following was computed:
- Surface deflection from stick input, including cable stretch, oil flow simulation etc.
- Aerodynamic hinge moments on the surface.
- Hydraulic hinge moments exerted by the actuators.
- Aerodynamic forces amd moments on the aeroplane.
- Inertial response of the aeroplane.
- Visual system response.
- Motion system response.
- All other system states and responses.
With an update rate of 30 Hz the standard was deemed acceptable for Level D zero flight time training, which implies a time delay of 1 frame = 0.0333 sec. So we know that this is fast enough: frequency rate 30 Hz, time delay 0.0333 sec.
As an aside, for present day computers this iteration rate is something to smile at, the code that ran @ 30Hz on a state of the art realtime unix machine runs @ 3000Hz on a Macbook Pro now.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Computation time isn't the only time delay. More pronounced time delays include transport delay in signals and confirmation delays (should they exist).
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Jimmy Indeed. 30 Hz in the simulator computer was fast enough to include all signal and other delays that occur in the aeroplane though.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is quite some experience in this in Level D simulators, which have computer generated responses that must match those of the original aircraft, within tight tolerances.
A couple of decades ago, the gold standard for Unix real time host computers was 30 Hz. So 30 times per second, all of the following was computed:
- Surface deflection from stick input, including cable stretch, oil flow simulation etc.
- Aerodynamic hinge moments on the surface.
- Hydraulic hinge moments exerted by the actuators.
- Aerodynamic forces amd moments on the aeroplane.
- Inertial response of the aeroplane.
- Visual system response.
- Motion system response.
- All other system states and responses.
With an update rate of 30 Hz the standard was deemed acceptable for Level D zero flight time training, which implies a time delay of 1 frame = 0.0333 sec. So we know that this is fast enough: frequency rate 30 Hz, time delay 0.0333 sec.
As an aside, for present day computers this iteration rate is something to smile at, the code that ran @ 30Hz on a state of the art realtime unix machine runs @ 3000Hz on a Macbook Pro now.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Computation time isn't the only time delay. More pronounced time delays include transport delay in signals and confirmation delays (should they exist).
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Jimmy Indeed. 30 Hz in the simulator computer was fast enough to include all signal and other delays that occur in the aeroplane though.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is quite some experience in this in Level D simulators, which have computer generated responses that must match those of the original aircraft, within tight tolerances.
A couple of decades ago, the gold standard for Unix real time host computers was 30 Hz. So 30 times per second, all of the following was computed:
- Surface deflection from stick input, including cable stretch, oil flow simulation etc.
- Aerodynamic hinge moments on the surface.
- Hydraulic hinge moments exerted by the actuators.
- Aerodynamic forces amd moments on the aeroplane.
- Inertial response of the aeroplane.
- Visual system response.
- Motion system response.
- All other system states and responses.
With an update rate of 30 Hz the standard was deemed acceptable for Level D zero flight time training, which implies a time delay of 1 frame = 0.0333 sec. So we know that this is fast enough: frequency rate 30 Hz, time delay 0.0333 sec.
As an aside, for present day computers this iteration rate is something to smile at, the code that ran @ 30Hz on a state of the art realtime unix machine runs @ 3000Hz on a Macbook Pro now.
$endgroup$
There is quite some experience in this in Level D simulators, which have computer generated responses that must match those of the original aircraft, within tight tolerances.
A couple of decades ago, the gold standard for Unix real time host computers was 30 Hz. So 30 times per second, all of the following was computed:
- Surface deflection from stick input, including cable stretch, oil flow simulation etc.
- Aerodynamic hinge moments on the surface.
- Hydraulic hinge moments exerted by the actuators.
- Aerodynamic forces amd moments on the aeroplane.
- Inertial response of the aeroplane.
- Visual system response.
- Motion system response.
- All other system states and responses.
With an update rate of 30 Hz the standard was deemed acceptable for Level D zero flight time training, which implies a time delay of 1 frame = 0.0333 sec. So we know that this is fast enough: frequency rate 30 Hz, time delay 0.0333 sec.
As an aside, for present day computers this iteration rate is something to smile at, the code that ran @ 30Hz on a state of the art realtime unix machine runs @ 3000Hz on a Macbook Pro now.
answered 7 hours ago
KoyovisKoyovis
37.3k9 gold badges99 silver badges195 bronze badges
37.3k9 gold badges99 silver badges195 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Computation time isn't the only time delay. More pronounced time delays include transport delay in signals and confirmation delays (should they exist).
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Jimmy Indeed. 30 Hz in the simulator computer was fast enough to include all signal and other delays that occur in the aeroplane though.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
7 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Computation time isn't the only time delay. More pronounced time delays include transport delay in signals and confirmation delays (should they exist).
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Jimmy Indeed. 30 Hz in the simulator computer was fast enough to include all signal and other delays that occur in the aeroplane though.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Computation time isn't the only time delay. More pronounced time delays include transport delay in signals and confirmation delays (should they exist).
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Computation time isn't the only time delay. More pronounced time delays include transport delay in signals and confirmation delays (should they exist).
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Jimmy Indeed. 30 Hz in the simulator computer was fast enough to include all signal and other delays that occur in the aeroplane though.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Jimmy Indeed. 30 Hz in the simulator computer was fast enough to include all signal and other delays that occur in the aeroplane though.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is a classic problem in control system theory. The condition to be avoided at all costs is the case where the pilot's control actions get out of phase with the movements of the plane, so the sidestick-action makes the oscillations worse instead of damping them out.
The two ways that could happen are 1) if there are significant processing time delays in the control system connected to the sidestick and 2) if there are significant delays in the pilot's reactions.
As pointed out above, the control system time lags are tiny compared to the time constants of the plane's responses to aileron movement, etc. and the significant time lag in the overall system consisting of plane + pilot + computer control system is in the PILOT, not the control system.
This gives rise to something called PID or pilot-induced oscillation, where the response time lag of the pilot pushes the whole system into divergent oscillation- as for example in the case of a pilot porpoising a plane down the runway after bouncing off the runway on his or her initial touchdown.
I do not know if computerized flight control systems contain subroutines that prevent PID but perhaps Peter Kaempf knows!
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
PIO, not PID... PID is a control system method used in things like autopilots (PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative, and also Process Instrumentation Diagram).
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is a classic problem in control system theory. The condition to be avoided at all costs is the case where the pilot's control actions get out of phase with the movements of the plane, so the sidestick-action makes the oscillations worse instead of damping them out.
The two ways that could happen are 1) if there are significant processing time delays in the control system connected to the sidestick and 2) if there are significant delays in the pilot's reactions.
As pointed out above, the control system time lags are tiny compared to the time constants of the plane's responses to aileron movement, etc. and the significant time lag in the overall system consisting of plane + pilot + computer control system is in the PILOT, not the control system.
This gives rise to something called PID or pilot-induced oscillation, where the response time lag of the pilot pushes the whole system into divergent oscillation- as for example in the case of a pilot porpoising a plane down the runway after bouncing off the runway on his or her initial touchdown.
I do not know if computerized flight control systems contain subroutines that prevent PID but perhaps Peter Kaempf knows!
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
PIO, not PID... PID is a control system method used in things like autopilots (PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative, and also Process Instrumentation Diagram).
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is a classic problem in control system theory. The condition to be avoided at all costs is the case where the pilot's control actions get out of phase with the movements of the plane, so the sidestick-action makes the oscillations worse instead of damping them out.
The two ways that could happen are 1) if there are significant processing time delays in the control system connected to the sidestick and 2) if there are significant delays in the pilot's reactions.
As pointed out above, the control system time lags are tiny compared to the time constants of the plane's responses to aileron movement, etc. and the significant time lag in the overall system consisting of plane + pilot + computer control system is in the PILOT, not the control system.
This gives rise to something called PID or pilot-induced oscillation, where the response time lag of the pilot pushes the whole system into divergent oscillation- as for example in the case of a pilot porpoising a plane down the runway after bouncing off the runway on his or her initial touchdown.
I do not know if computerized flight control systems contain subroutines that prevent PID but perhaps Peter Kaempf knows!
$endgroup$
This is a classic problem in control system theory. The condition to be avoided at all costs is the case where the pilot's control actions get out of phase with the movements of the plane, so the sidestick-action makes the oscillations worse instead of damping them out.
The two ways that could happen are 1) if there are significant processing time delays in the control system connected to the sidestick and 2) if there are significant delays in the pilot's reactions.
As pointed out above, the control system time lags are tiny compared to the time constants of the plane's responses to aileron movement, etc. and the significant time lag in the overall system consisting of plane + pilot + computer control system is in the PILOT, not the control system.
This gives rise to something called PID or pilot-induced oscillation, where the response time lag of the pilot pushes the whole system into divergent oscillation- as for example in the case of a pilot porpoising a plane down the runway after bouncing off the runway on his or her initial touchdown.
I do not know if computerized flight control systems contain subroutines that prevent PID but perhaps Peter Kaempf knows!
answered 6 hours ago
niels nielsenniels nielsen
3,4121 gold badge5 silver badges17 bronze badges
3,4121 gold badge5 silver badges17 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
PIO, not PID... PID is a control system method used in things like autopilots (PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative, and also Process Instrumentation Diagram).
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
5 hours ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
PIO, not PID... PID is a control system method used in things like autopilots (PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative, and also Process Instrumentation Diagram).
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
5 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
PIO, not PID... PID is a control system method used in things like autopilots (PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative, and also Process Instrumentation Diagram).
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
PIO, not PID... PID is a control system method used in things like autopilots (PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative, and also Process Instrumentation Diagram).
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f68322%2fwhat-is-the-maximal-acceptable-delay-between-pilots-input-and-flight-control-su%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
Related: What kind of delay does the A320's fly-by-wire system add?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
7 hours ago