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"Categorical" Schröder–Bernstein theorem?

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“Categorical” Schröder–Bernstein theorem?


If there are injective homomorphisms between two groups in both directions, are they isomorphic?“Cat” modulo natural isomorphism?Showing MON and CAT are equivalent categoriesMonomorphisms and Epimorphisms in the category of small categoriesWhat's the name of a morphism the morphism category of the category of categories?How to give “categorical” specifications of categories like Grp?Is isomorphism defined between large categories?Are functors (from small categories) functions?Legitimate functor metacategory.The bicategory of monoidal categories vs the tricategory of one-object bicategories.






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;

.everyonelovesstackoverflowposition:absolute;height:1px;width:1px;opacity:0;top:0;left:0;pointer-events:none;








7












$begingroup$


Problem.




Let $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ be two categories and $F:mathbfAtomathbfB$, $G:mathbfBtomathbfA$ be two functors that are embeddings (i.e., injective on objects and on $mathsfHom$-set restrictions). Are $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ isomorphic?




It is clear that the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfA$ and the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfB$ are in bijective correspondence. But whether the bijection on $mathbfA$-morphisms satisfies the functorial properties is not clear to me and a problem which I haven't been able to solve yet.




The reason for giving the title as I have given is due to the "natural" similarity between this problem to the Schröder–Bernstein theorem. Hence I was wondering whether the following is true,




In the metacategory of all categories $mathbfCAT$, is it true that the embeddings are the monomorphisms?




If this is so (I couldn't prove it either) then the only the difference between the Schröder–Bernstein theorem and this problem would be that the Schröder–Bernstein theorem applies to the morphisms of the category $mathbfSet$ whereas here in this problem we are talking about the same question for the $mathbfCAT$-morphisms.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    May we please restrict to the case of small categories?
    $endgroup$
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HagenvonEitzen: Sure.
    $endgroup$
    – user 170039
    7 hours ago

















7












$begingroup$


Problem.




Let $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ be two categories and $F:mathbfAtomathbfB$, $G:mathbfBtomathbfA$ be two functors that are embeddings (i.e., injective on objects and on $mathsfHom$-set restrictions). Are $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ isomorphic?




It is clear that the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfA$ and the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfB$ are in bijective correspondence. But whether the bijection on $mathbfA$-morphisms satisfies the functorial properties is not clear to me and a problem which I haven't been able to solve yet.




The reason for giving the title as I have given is due to the "natural" similarity between this problem to the Schröder–Bernstein theorem. Hence I was wondering whether the following is true,




In the metacategory of all categories $mathbfCAT$, is it true that the embeddings are the monomorphisms?




If this is so (I couldn't prove it either) then the only the difference between the Schröder–Bernstein theorem and this problem would be that the Schröder–Bernstein theorem applies to the morphisms of the category $mathbfSet$ whereas here in this problem we are talking about the same question for the $mathbfCAT$-morphisms.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    May we please restrict to the case of small categories?
    $endgroup$
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HagenvonEitzen: Sure.
    $endgroup$
    – user 170039
    7 hours ago













7












7








7


2



$begingroup$


Problem.




Let $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ be two categories and $F:mathbfAtomathbfB$, $G:mathbfBtomathbfA$ be two functors that are embeddings (i.e., injective on objects and on $mathsfHom$-set restrictions). Are $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ isomorphic?




It is clear that the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfA$ and the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfB$ are in bijective correspondence. But whether the bijection on $mathbfA$-morphisms satisfies the functorial properties is not clear to me and a problem which I haven't been able to solve yet.




The reason for giving the title as I have given is due to the "natural" similarity between this problem to the Schröder–Bernstein theorem. Hence I was wondering whether the following is true,




In the metacategory of all categories $mathbfCAT$, is it true that the embeddings are the monomorphisms?




If this is so (I couldn't prove it either) then the only the difference between the Schröder–Bernstein theorem and this problem would be that the Schröder–Bernstein theorem applies to the morphisms of the category $mathbfSet$ whereas here in this problem we are talking about the same question for the $mathbfCAT$-morphisms.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Problem.




Let $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ be two categories and $F:mathbfAtomathbfB$, $G:mathbfBtomathbfA$ be two functors that are embeddings (i.e., injective on objects and on $mathsfHom$-set restrictions). Are $mathbfA$ and $mathbfB$ isomorphic?




It is clear that the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfA$ and the object part (respectively, the morphism) part of $mathbfB$ are in bijective correspondence. But whether the bijection on $mathbfA$-morphisms satisfies the functorial properties is not clear to me and a problem which I haven't been able to solve yet.




The reason for giving the title as I have given is due to the "natural" similarity between this problem to the Schröder–Bernstein theorem. Hence I was wondering whether the following is true,




In the metacategory of all categories $mathbfCAT$, is it true that the embeddings are the monomorphisms?




If this is so (I couldn't prove it either) then the only the difference between the Schröder–Bernstein theorem and this problem would be that the Schröder–Bernstein theorem applies to the morphisms of the category $mathbfSet$ whereas here in this problem we are talking about the same question for the $mathbfCAT$-morphisms.







category-theory set-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago







user 170039

















asked 8 hours ago









user 170039user 170039

10.9k4 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges




10.9k4 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges










  • 2




    $begingroup$
    May we please restrict to the case of small categories?
    $endgroup$
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HagenvonEitzen: Sure.
    $endgroup$
    – user 170039
    7 hours ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    May we please restrict to the case of small categories?
    $endgroup$
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HagenvonEitzen: Sure.
    $endgroup$
    – user 170039
    7 hours ago







2




2




$begingroup$
May we please restrict to the case of small categories?
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
May we please restrict to the case of small categories?
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
@HagenvonEitzen: Sure.
$endgroup$
– user 170039
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
@HagenvonEitzen: Sure.
$endgroup$
– user 170039
7 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















5














$begingroup$

The analogue of Schröder–Bernstein is false for groups, as shown here. Let $f:Gto H$, $k:Hto G$ be such an example. We can translate this example to the case of categories as follows.



Let $mathbf BG$ be the category with one object, called $bullet$, and with $mathrmHom(bullet,bullet)=G$. Composition of morphisms is by multiplication in G, and $mathrmid_bullet$ is just the identity of $G$. Define $mathbf BH$ analogously.



Now define a functor $mathbf Bf:mathbf BGto mathbf BH$ by sending $bullet_G$ to $bullet_H$ and acting on morphisms by $f$. Likewise define $mathbf Bk$.



Then $mathbf Bf$ and $mathbf Bk$ are injective on objects and morphisms, but $mathbf BG$ and $mathbf BH$ aren't isomorphic because $G$ and $H$ aren't.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What if we assume full-and-faithful?
    $endgroup$
    – Oscar Cunningham
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I am not saying that the analogue of Schröder–Bernstein theorem is true for every category. I am only asking whether it is true for $mathbfCAT$. I am not sure how your post answers my question.
    $endgroup$
    – user 170039
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @user170039 You can see every group as a one-object category, and group morphisms as functors, so the counterexample in groups is also a counterexample in categories.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnaud D.
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @user170039 I added some explanation.
    $endgroup$
    – Oscar Cunningham
    7 hours ago


















4














$begingroup$

The Bernstein-Schröder theorem also fails for posets : for example, take $A$ to be the poset of natural numbers and $B=Asqcup A$, with no order relation between the two copies of $A$. $A$ can be embedded into $A$ as either copy, $B$ can be embedded into $A$ by identifying one copy with the odd numbers and the other with the even numbers. The two posets are not isomorphic since $A$ is a total order and not $B$. Note that this implies that as categories, they are not even equivalent.



This MO answer gives another counterexample : the posets $[0,1]$ and $[0,1)$ can be embedded into each other, but are not isomorphic. Here the two orders are total, and the embeddings are initial segments. This means that as functors between categories, they are actually fully faithful; yet the two corresponding categories are, again, not even equivalent since only one has a terminal object.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$
















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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    5














    $begingroup$

    The analogue of Schröder–Bernstein is false for groups, as shown here. Let $f:Gto H$, $k:Hto G$ be such an example. We can translate this example to the case of categories as follows.



    Let $mathbf BG$ be the category with one object, called $bullet$, and with $mathrmHom(bullet,bullet)=G$. Composition of morphisms is by multiplication in G, and $mathrmid_bullet$ is just the identity of $G$. Define $mathbf BH$ analogously.



    Now define a functor $mathbf Bf:mathbf BGto mathbf BH$ by sending $bullet_G$ to $bullet_H$ and acting on morphisms by $f$. Likewise define $mathbf Bk$.



    Then $mathbf Bf$ and $mathbf Bk$ are injective on objects and morphisms, but $mathbf BG$ and $mathbf BH$ aren't isomorphic because $G$ and $H$ aren't.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      What if we assume full-and-faithful?
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am not saying that the analogue of Schröder–Bernstein theorem is true for every category. I am only asking whether it is true for $mathbfCAT$. I am not sure how your post answers my question.
      $endgroup$
      – user 170039
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 You can see every group as a one-object category, and group morphisms as functors, so the counterexample in groups is also a counterexample in categories.
      $endgroup$
      – Arnaud D.
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 I added some explanation.
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      7 hours ago















    5














    $begingroup$

    The analogue of Schröder–Bernstein is false for groups, as shown here. Let $f:Gto H$, $k:Hto G$ be such an example. We can translate this example to the case of categories as follows.



    Let $mathbf BG$ be the category with one object, called $bullet$, and with $mathrmHom(bullet,bullet)=G$. Composition of morphisms is by multiplication in G, and $mathrmid_bullet$ is just the identity of $G$. Define $mathbf BH$ analogously.



    Now define a functor $mathbf Bf:mathbf BGto mathbf BH$ by sending $bullet_G$ to $bullet_H$ and acting on morphisms by $f$. Likewise define $mathbf Bk$.



    Then $mathbf Bf$ and $mathbf Bk$ are injective on objects and morphisms, but $mathbf BG$ and $mathbf BH$ aren't isomorphic because $G$ and $H$ aren't.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      What if we assume full-and-faithful?
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am not saying that the analogue of Schröder–Bernstein theorem is true for every category. I am only asking whether it is true for $mathbfCAT$. I am not sure how your post answers my question.
      $endgroup$
      – user 170039
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 You can see every group as a one-object category, and group morphisms as functors, so the counterexample in groups is also a counterexample in categories.
      $endgroup$
      – Arnaud D.
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 I added some explanation.
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      7 hours ago













    5














    5










    5







    $begingroup$

    The analogue of Schröder–Bernstein is false for groups, as shown here. Let $f:Gto H$, $k:Hto G$ be such an example. We can translate this example to the case of categories as follows.



    Let $mathbf BG$ be the category with one object, called $bullet$, and with $mathrmHom(bullet,bullet)=G$. Composition of morphisms is by multiplication in G, and $mathrmid_bullet$ is just the identity of $G$. Define $mathbf BH$ analogously.



    Now define a functor $mathbf Bf:mathbf BGto mathbf BH$ by sending $bullet_G$ to $bullet_H$ and acting on morphisms by $f$. Likewise define $mathbf Bk$.



    Then $mathbf Bf$ and $mathbf Bk$ are injective on objects and morphisms, but $mathbf BG$ and $mathbf BH$ aren't isomorphic because $G$ and $H$ aren't.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    The analogue of Schröder–Bernstein is false for groups, as shown here. Let $f:Gto H$, $k:Hto G$ be such an example. We can translate this example to the case of categories as follows.



    Let $mathbf BG$ be the category with one object, called $bullet$, and with $mathrmHom(bullet,bullet)=G$. Composition of morphisms is by multiplication in G, and $mathrmid_bullet$ is just the identity of $G$. Define $mathbf BH$ analogously.



    Now define a functor $mathbf Bf:mathbf BGto mathbf BH$ by sending $bullet_G$ to $bullet_H$ and acting on morphisms by $f$. Likewise define $mathbf Bk$.



    Then $mathbf Bf$ and $mathbf Bk$ are injective on objects and morphisms, but $mathbf BG$ and $mathbf BH$ aren't isomorphic because $G$ and $H$ aren't.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited 7 hours ago

























    answered 8 hours ago









    Oscar CunninghamOscar Cunningham

    10.8k2 gold badges34 silver badges64 bronze badges




    10.8k2 gold badges34 silver badges64 bronze badges










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      What if we assume full-and-faithful?
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am not saying that the analogue of Schröder–Bernstein theorem is true for every category. I am only asking whether it is true for $mathbfCAT$. I am not sure how your post answers my question.
      $endgroup$
      – user 170039
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 You can see every group as a one-object category, and group morphisms as functors, so the counterexample in groups is also a counterexample in categories.
      $endgroup$
      – Arnaud D.
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 I added some explanation.
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      7 hours ago












    • 1




      $begingroup$
      What if we assume full-and-faithful?
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am not saying that the analogue of Schröder–Bernstein theorem is true for every category. I am only asking whether it is true for $mathbfCAT$. I am not sure how your post answers my question.
      $endgroup$
      – user 170039
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 You can see every group as a one-object category, and group morphisms as functors, so the counterexample in groups is also a counterexample in categories.
      $endgroup$
      – Arnaud D.
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @user170039 I added some explanation.
      $endgroup$
      – Oscar Cunningham
      7 hours ago







    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    What if we assume full-and-faithful?
    $endgroup$
    – Oscar Cunningham
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    What if we assume full-and-faithful?
    $endgroup$
    – Oscar Cunningham
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    I am not saying that the analogue of Schröder–Bernstein theorem is true for every category. I am only asking whether it is true for $mathbfCAT$. I am not sure how your post answers my question.
    $endgroup$
    – user 170039
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    I am not saying that the analogue of Schröder–Bernstein theorem is true for every category. I am only asking whether it is true for $mathbfCAT$. I am not sure how your post answers my question.
    $endgroup$
    – user 170039
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @user170039 You can see every group as a one-object category, and group morphisms as functors, so the counterexample in groups is also a counterexample in categories.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnaud D.
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @user170039 You can see every group as a one-object category, and group morphisms as functors, so the counterexample in groups is also a counterexample in categories.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnaud D.
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @user170039 I added some explanation.
    $endgroup$
    – Oscar Cunningham
    7 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @user170039 I added some explanation.
    $endgroup$
    – Oscar Cunningham
    7 hours ago













    4














    $begingroup$

    The Bernstein-Schröder theorem also fails for posets : for example, take $A$ to be the poset of natural numbers and $B=Asqcup A$, with no order relation between the two copies of $A$. $A$ can be embedded into $A$ as either copy, $B$ can be embedded into $A$ by identifying one copy with the odd numbers and the other with the even numbers. The two posets are not isomorphic since $A$ is a total order and not $B$. Note that this implies that as categories, they are not even equivalent.



    This MO answer gives another counterexample : the posets $[0,1]$ and $[0,1)$ can be embedded into each other, but are not isomorphic. Here the two orders are total, and the embeddings are initial segments. This means that as functors between categories, they are actually fully faithful; yet the two corresponding categories are, again, not even equivalent since only one has a terminal object.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



















      4














      $begingroup$

      The Bernstein-Schröder theorem also fails for posets : for example, take $A$ to be the poset of natural numbers and $B=Asqcup A$, with no order relation between the two copies of $A$. $A$ can be embedded into $A$ as either copy, $B$ can be embedded into $A$ by identifying one copy with the odd numbers and the other with the even numbers. The two posets are not isomorphic since $A$ is a total order and not $B$. Note that this implies that as categories, they are not even equivalent.



      This MO answer gives another counterexample : the posets $[0,1]$ and $[0,1)$ can be embedded into each other, but are not isomorphic. Here the two orders are total, and the embeddings are initial segments. This means that as functors between categories, they are actually fully faithful; yet the two corresponding categories are, again, not even equivalent since only one has a terminal object.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        4














        4










        4







        $begingroup$

        The Bernstein-Schröder theorem also fails for posets : for example, take $A$ to be the poset of natural numbers and $B=Asqcup A$, with no order relation between the two copies of $A$. $A$ can be embedded into $A$ as either copy, $B$ can be embedded into $A$ by identifying one copy with the odd numbers and the other with the even numbers. The two posets are not isomorphic since $A$ is a total order and not $B$. Note that this implies that as categories, they are not even equivalent.



        This MO answer gives another counterexample : the posets $[0,1]$ and $[0,1)$ can be embedded into each other, but are not isomorphic. Here the two orders are total, and the embeddings are initial segments. This means that as functors between categories, they are actually fully faithful; yet the two corresponding categories are, again, not even equivalent since only one has a terminal object.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        The Bernstein-Schröder theorem also fails for posets : for example, take $A$ to be the poset of natural numbers and $B=Asqcup A$, with no order relation between the two copies of $A$. $A$ can be embedded into $A$ as either copy, $B$ can be embedded into $A$ by identifying one copy with the odd numbers and the other with the even numbers. The two posets are not isomorphic since $A$ is a total order and not $B$. Note that this implies that as categories, they are not even equivalent.



        This MO answer gives another counterexample : the posets $[0,1]$ and $[0,1)$ can be embedded into each other, but are not isomorphic. Here the two orders are total, and the embeddings are initial segments. This means that as functors between categories, they are actually fully faithful; yet the two corresponding categories are, again, not even equivalent since only one has a terminal object.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 7 hours ago

























        answered 7 hours ago









        Arnaud D.Arnaud D.

        17.5k5 gold badges25 silver badges46 bronze badges




        17.5k5 gold badges25 silver badges46 bronze badges































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