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When referring to a person only by their surname, should I keep or omit “von”?


How to alphabetically sort a list of names?Origin of the surname BargflethPronunciation of the surname RuhleIPA von Haeckel (Hegel, Händel, …)Meaning of “von Weizsäcker”Vor- oder Nachname, um mit einer Person über eine andere zu sprechenDative after 'von' with compound personal namesNeed help about usage of “von”“Von neumannsche Ordinalzahlen” oder “von Neumann'sche Ordinalzahlen”?Genitiv von Namen mit Adelsprädikat













7















When referring to people, often they are named by their surname only (no titles, first names or initials if the surname alone would unambiguously denote the person in a context. E.g. Haydn, Merkel.



Some surnames contain the prefix "von" (or similar forms like "vom"/"von dem"). Surnames of non-German origin can have equivalent forms (e.g. Dutch "van", Italian "di", etc. etc.).



In German, the "von" has 2 origins:



  1. Strictly denoting origin (literally meaning "of" or "from") with a place names. As such strictly part of the surname proper (e.g. Erich von Däniken);

  2. Added to the surname upon ennoblement (meaning "of the house of"). After the abolishment of the nobility in 1919 - either becoming part of the surname proper (Germany) or being dropped (Austria). (e.g. Friedrich von Schiller)

I understand for alphabetization purposes the word without the preposition(s) is considered (D for Däniken, S for Schiller), as it is done in the Netherlands, while in e.g. Belgium and South Africa the "V" of "van" is used for this purpose.



With all this in mind, I see that often a person is denoted by his surname without the preposition(s) (e.g. Beethoven, Goethe) irrespective whether it is a commoner surname or denoting nobility - but cases can also be found where it is included (e.g. Von Hindenburg vs. the ill-fated dirigible Hindenburg).



(Beethoven provides an interesting example since the surname Van Beethoven is of Dutch origin and the "van" has not been germanized to "von", although the composer is considered German since being in the 3rd generation.)



Is there any rule or style guide clarifying how this (the dropping or retaining of prepositions like "von") is best done? Is it up to the whim of the author? Also, is there a reasoning behind a particular style?



I am asking particularly about German usage. I am aware of the same sort of process in other languages (e.g. William of Occam => Occam's Razor, Rene Descartes => Cartesian Coordinates, etc. but also Da Vinci for Leonardo.)










share|improve this question
























  • The dirigible Hindenburg as opposed to the person never possessed a von.

    – guidot
    14 hours ago
















7















When referring to people, often they are named by their surname only (no titles, first names or initials if the surname alone would unambiguously denote the person in a context. E.g. Haydn, Merkel.



Some surnames contain the prefix "von" (or similar forms like "vom"/"von dem"). Surnames of non-German origin can have equivalent forms (e.g. Dutch "van", Italian "di", etc. etc.).



In German, the "von" has 2 origins:



  1. Strictly denoting origin (literally meaning "of" or "from") with a place names. As such strictly part of the surname proper (e.g. Erich von Däniken);

  2. Added to the surname upon ennoblement (meaning "of the house of"). After the abolishment of the nobility in 1919 - either becoming part of the surname proper (Germany) or being dropped (Austria). (e.g. Friedrich von Schiller)

I understand for alphabetization purposes the word without the preposition(s) is considered (D for Däniken, S for Schiller), as it is done in the Netherlands, while in e.g. Belgium and South Africa the "V" of "van" is used for this purpose.



With all this in mind, I see that often a person is denoted by his surname without the preposition(s) (e.g. Beethoven, Goethe) irrespective whether it is a commoner surname or denoting nobility - but cases can also be found where it is included (e.g. Von Hindenburg vs. the ill-fated dirigible Hindenburg).



(Beethoven provides an interesting example since the surname Van Beethoven is of Dutch origin and the "van" has not been germanized to "von", although the composer is considered German since being in the 3rd generation.)



Is there any rule or style guide clarifying how this (the dropping or retaining of prepositions like "von") is best done? Is it up to the whim of the author? Also, is there a reasoning behind a particular style?



I am asking particularly about German usage. I am aware of the same sort of process in other languages (e.g. William of Occam => Occam's Razor, Rene Descartes => Cartesian Coordinates, etc. but also Da Vinci for Leonardo.)










share|improve this question
























  • The dirigible Hindenburg as opposed to the person never possessed a von.

    – guidot
    14 hours ago














7












7








7








When referring to people, often they are named by their surname only (no titles, first names or initials if the surname alone would unambiguously denote the person in a context. E.g. Haydn, Merkel.



Some surnames contain the prefix "von" (or similar forms like "vom"/"von dem"). Surnames of non-German origin can have equivalent forms (e.g. Dutch "van", Italian "di", etc. etc.).



In German, the "von" has 2 origins:



  1. Strictly denoting origin (literally meaning "of" or "from") with a place names. As such strictly part of the surname proper (e.g. Erich von Däniken);

  2. Added to the surname upon ennoblement (meaning "of the house of"). After the abolishment of the nobility in 1919 - either becoming part of the surname proper (Germany) or being dropped (Austria). (e.g. Friedrich von Schiller)

I understand for alphabetization purposes the word without the preposition(s) is considered (D for Däniken, S for Schiller), as it is done in the Netherlands, while in e.g. Belgium and South Africa the "V" of "van" is used for this purpose.



With all this in mind, I see that often a person is denoted by his surname without the preposition(s) (e.g. Beethoven, Goethe) irrespective whether it is a commoner surname or denoting nobility - but cases can also be found where it is included (e.g. Von Hindenburg vs. the ill-fated dirigible Hindenburg).



(Beethoven provides an interesting example since the surname Van Beethoven is of Dutch origin and the "van" has not been germanized to "von", although the composer is considered German since being in the 3rd generation.)



Is there any rule or style guide clarifying how this (the dropping or retaining of prepositions like "von") is best done? Is it up to the whim of the author? Also, is there a reasoning behind a particular style?



I am asking particularly about German usage. I am aware of the same sort of process in other languages (e.g. William of Occam => Occam's Razor, Rene Descartes => Cartesian Coordinates, etc. but also Da Vinci for Leonardo.)










share|improve this question
















When referring to people, often they are named by their surname only (no titles, first names or initials if the surname alone would unambiguously denote the person in a context. E.g. Haydn, Merkel.



Some surnames contain the prefix "von" (or similar forms like "vom"/"von dem"). Surnames of non-German origin can have equivalent forms (e.g. Dutch "van", Italian "di", etc. etc.).



In German, the "von" has 2 origins:



  1. Strictly denoting origin (literally meaning "of" or "from") with a place names. As such strictly part of the surname proper (e.g. Erich von Däniken);

  2. Added to the surname upon ennoblement (meaning "of the house of"). After the abolishment of the nobility in 1919 - either becoming part of the surname proper (Germany) or being dropped (Austria). (e.g. Friedrich von Schiller)

I understand for alphabetization purposes the word without the preposition(s) is considered (D for Däniken, S for Schiller), as it is done in the Netherlands, while in e.g. Belgium and South Africa the "V" of "van" is used for this purpose.



With all this in mind, I see that often a person is denoted by his surname without the preposition(s) (e.g. Beethoven, Goethe) irrespective whether it is a commoner surname or denoting nobility - but cases can also be found where it is included (e.g. Von Hindenburg vs. the ill-fated dirigible Hindenburg).



(Beethoven provides an interesting example since the surname Van Beethoven is of Dutch origin and the "van" has not been germanized to "von", although the composer is considered German since being in the 3rd generation.)



Is there any rule or style guide clarifying how this (the dropping or retaining of prepositions like "von") is best done? Is it up to the whim of the author? Also, is there a reasoning behind a particular style?



I am asking particularly about German usage. I am aware of the same sort of process in other languages (e.g. William of Occam => Occam's Razor, Rene Descartes => Cartesian Coordinates, etc. but also Da Vinci for Leonardo.)







prepositions person-names






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share|improve this question













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edited 22 mins ago









V2Blast

1194




1194










asked 15 hours ago









fr13dfr13d

30115




30115












  • The dirigible Hindenburg as opposed to the person never possessed a von.

    – guidot
    14 hours ago


















  • The dirigible Hindenburg as opposed to the person never possessed a von.

    – guidot
    14 hours ago

















The dirigible Hindenburg as opposed to the person never possessed a von.

– guidot
14 hours ago






The dirigible Hindenburg as opposed to the person never possessed a von.

– guidot
14 hours ago











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2














Alphabetisation should be done with the von in German, as it is officially part of the name, not anything you can just leave out (like a title). However, in practical terms, many people omit the von.



The same with talking to someone: Polite people don't omit the von, except if the person with the von also omits it. So it depends on how the person wants to be addressed. Again, in practical terms, any name is subject to shortening if it has more than one syllable (and people like to test their limits with you), and the von often gets left out - especially if you are not someone special. So even though it shouldn't be so, it's often a sign of respect to not drop it, which is the reason why some people like to drop it.



When thinking about examples where the von is never dropped, I actually only find names which were popularised with the von internationally. The already mentioned von Neumann architecture, or von Braun the brown rocket scientist, science fiction author von Daeniken and so on.



Even people of respect, like von Weizsaecker, can be affected by the vanishing von.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.



























    2














    There's regional differences:



    In most of southern Germany and Austria "von" and "von und zu" (see below) means "nobility". This can be "old", inherited titles as well as ennobled titles (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who is also a good example of use with and without title: If you refer to von Goethe before 1782, you should omit the "von" - He received his title during that year).



    "von und zu" means "old nobility" - The family was part of the aristocracy since the middle ages and still sits on their traditional aristocratic estate - Karl Theodor Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg (a former MP and grandfather of former Minister of Defence Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg) would be an example of "old nobility".



    In the Netherlands, on the other hand, "van" has nothing to do with nobility - it's just the place of origin of a name. Due to geographic proximity, the usage of "von" seems to be at least partially similar in parts of northern Germany.



    With noble ranks factually abolished in 1919 in Germany, all of this has no longer much meaning - It's just names. The constitution of 1919 claimed:




    Advantages or disadvantages under the public law caused by birth or social rank are to be suspended. Aristocratic titles are simply part of the name and can no longer be awarded




    Just like people owning double names ("Müller-Lüdenscheid") that sometimes like to drop part of their name in everyday usage, persons with names containing "van" or "von" might prefer to use or not use that - It's simply a matter of personal preference - Or like Goethe said:




    Ein Titel und ein Orden hält im Gedränge manchen Puff ab...




    The rule is simple - "von" is a part of a person's name - If they want to be called like that, it's just good practice to use the name they have to address them.






    share|improve this answer
































      0














      As far as I'm aware, the "von" is almost always dropped when referring to a person by surname, except perhaps in very formal circumstances where it would feel rude not to use exactly the correct name, e.g. in the news. (And a newsspeaker would probably use the correct name of a living person. I don't think they'd ever refer to Schiller as "von Schiller".)






      share|improve this answer


















      • 3





        I strongly disagree. One says von Neumann; nobody would understand Neumann.

        – c.p.
        8 hours ago











      • I totally agree. Examples: Beethovenstraße and not von-Beethoven-Straße, Stauffenbergattentat and not von-Stauffenberg-Attentat, Bismarckhering and not von-Bismarck-Hering, etc..

        – scienceponder
        8 hours ago











      • @scienceponder Beethoven is Dutch. In any case, von Neumann is a counterexample.

        – c.p.
        8 hours ago












      • @c.p. sorry a instead of o of course.

        – scienceponder
        8 hours ago











      Your Answer








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      3 Answers
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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      2














      Alphabetisation should be done with the von in German, as it is officially part of the name, not anything you can just leave out (like a title). However, in practical terms, many people omit the von.



      The same with talking to someone: Polite people don't omit the von, except if the person with the von also omits it. So it depends on how the person wants to be addressed. Again, in practical terms, any name is subject to shortening if it has more than one syllable (and people like to test their limits with you), and the von often gets left out - especially if you are not someone special. So even though it shouldn't be so, it's often a sign of respect to not drop it, which is the reason why some people like to drop it.



      When thinking about examples where the von is never dropped, I actually only find names which were popularised with the von internationally. The already mentioned von Neumann architecture, or von Braun the brown rocket scientist, science fiction author von Daeniken and so on.



      Even people of respect, like von Weizsaecker, can be affected by the vanishing von.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.
























        2














        Alphabetisation should be done with the von in German, as it is officially part of the name, not anything you can just leave out (like a title). However, in practical terms, many people omit the von.



        The same with talking to someone: Polite people don't omit the von, except if the person with the von also omits it. So it depends on how the person wants to be addressed. Again, in practical terms, any name is subject to shortening if it has more than one syllable (and people like to test their limits with you), and the von often gets left out - especially if you are not someone special. So even though it shouldn't be so, it's often a sign of respect to not drop it, which is the reason why some people like to drop it.



        When thinking about examples where the von is never dropped, I actually only find names which were popularised with the von internationally. The already mentioned von Neumann architecture, or von Braun the brown rocket scientist, science fiction author von Daeniken and so on.



        Even people of respect, like von Weizsaecker, can be affected by the vanishing von.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          2












          2








          2







          Alphabetisation should be done with the von in German, as it is officially part of the name, not anything you can just leave out (like a title). However, in practical terms, many people omit the von.



          The same with talking to someone: Polite people don't omit the von, except if the person with the von also omits it. So it depends on how the person wants to be addressed. Again, in practical terms, any name is subject to shortening if it has more than one syllable (and people like to test their limits with you), and the von often gets left out - especially if you are not someone special. So even though it shouldn't be so, it's often a sign of respect to not drop it, which is the reason why some people like to drop it.



          When thinking about examples where the von is never dropped, I actually only find names which were popularised with the von internationally. The already mentioned von Neumann architecture, or von Braun the brown rocket scientist, science fiction author von Daeniken and so on.



          Even people of respect, like von Weizsaecker, can be affected by the vanishing von.






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.










          Alphabetisation should be done with the von in German, as it is officially part of the name, not anything you can just leave out (like a title). However, in practical terms, many people omit the von.



          The same with talking to someone: Polite people don't omit the von, except if the person with the von also omits it. So it depends on how the person wants to be addressed. Again, in practical terms, any name is subject to shortening if it has more than one syllable (and people like to test their limits with you), and the von often gets left out - especially if you are not someone special. So even though it shouldn't be so, it's often a sign of respect to not drop it, which is the reason why some people like to drop it.



          When thinking about examples where the von is never dropped, I actually only find names which were popularised with the von internationally. The already mentioned von Neumann architecture, or von Braun the brown rocket scientist, science fiction author von Daeniken and so on.



          Even people of respect, like von Weizsaecker, can be affected by the vanishing von.







          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer






          New contributor




          Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered 8 hours ago









          Carl DombrowskiCarl Dombrowski

          1211




          1211




          New contributor




          Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





          New contributor





          Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          Carl Dombrowski is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





















              2














              There's regional differences:



              In most of southern Germany and Austria "von" and "von und zu" (see below) means "nobility". This can be "old", inherited titles as well as ennobled titles (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who is also a good example of use with and without title: If you refer to von Goethe before 1782, you should omit the "von" - He received his title during that year).



              "von und zu" means "old nobility" - The family was part of the aristocracy since the middle ages and still sits on their traditional aristocratic estate - Karl Theodor Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg (a former MP and grandfather of former Minister of Defence Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg) would be an example of "old nobility".



              In the Netherlands, on the other hand, "van" has nothing to do with nobility - it's just the place of origin of a name. Due to geographic proximity, the usage of "von" seems to be at least partially similar in parts of northern Germany.



              With noble ranks factually abolished in 1919 in Germany, all of this has no longer much meaning - It's just names. The constitution of 1919 claimed:




              Advantages or disadvantages under the public law caused by birth or social rank are to be suspended. Aristocratic titles are simply part of the name and can no longer be awarded




              Just like people owning double names ("Müller-Lüdenscheid") that sometimes like to drop part of their name in everyday usage, persons with names containing "van" or "von" might prefer to use or not use that - It's simply a matter of personal preference - Or like Goethe said:




              Ein Titel und ein Orden hält im Gedränge manchen Puff ab...




              The rule is simple - "von" is a part of a person's name - If they want to be called like that, it's just good practice to use the name they have to address them.






              share|improve this answer





























                2














                There's regional differences:



                In most of southern Germany and Austria "von" and "von und zu" (see below) means "nobility". This can be "old", inherited titles as well as ennobled titles (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who is also a good example of use with and without title: If you refer to von Goethe before 1782, you should omit the "von" - He received his title during that year).



                "von und zu" means "old nobility" - The family was part of the aristocracy since the middle ages and still sits on their traditional aristocratic estate - Karl Theodor Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg (a former MP and grandfather of former Minister of Defence Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg) would be an example of "old nobility".



                In the Netherlands, on the other hand, "van" has nothing to do with nobility - it's just the place of origin of a name. Due to geographic proximity, the usage of "von" seems to be at least partially similar in parts of northern Germany.



                With noble ranks factually abolished in 1919 in Germany, all of this has no longer much meaning - It's just names. The constitution of 1919 claimed:




                Advantages or disadvantages under the public law caused by birth or social rank are to be suspended. Aristocratic titles are simply part of the name and can no longer be awarded




                Just like people owning double names ("Müller-Lüdenscheid") that sometimes like to drop part of their name in everyday usage, persons with names containing "van" or "von" might prefer to use or not use that - It's simply a matter of personal preference - Or like Goethe said:




                Ein Titel und ein Orden hält im Gedränge manchen Puff ab...




                The rule is simple - "von" is a part of a person's name - If they want to be called like that, it's just good practice to use the name they have to address them.






                share|improve this answer



























                  2












                  2








                  2







                  There's regional differences:



                  In most of southern Germany and Austria "von" and "von und zu" (see below) means "nobility". This can be "old", inherited titles as well as ennobled titles (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who is also a good example of use with and without title: If you refer to von Goethe before 1782, you should omit the "von" - He received his title during that year).



                  "von und zu" means "old nobility" - The family was part of the aristocracy since the middle ages and still sits on their traditional aristocratic estate - Karl Theodor Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg (a former MP and grandfather of former Minister of Defence Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg) would be an example of "old nobility".



                  In the Netherlands, on the other hand, "van" has nothing to do with nobility - it's just the place of origin of a name. Due to geographic proximity, the usage of "von" seems to be at least partially similar in parts of northern Germany.



                  With noble ranks factually abolished in 1919 in Germany, all of this has no longer much meaning - It's just names. The constitution of 1919 claimed:




                  Advantages or disadvantages under the public law caused by birth or social rank are to be suspended. Aristocratic titles are simply part of the name and can no longer be awarded




                  Just like people owning double names ("Müller-Lüdenscheid") that sometimes like to drop part of their name in everyday usage, persons with names containing "van" or "von" might prefer to use or not use that - It's simply a matter of personal preference - Or like Goethe said:




                  Ein Titel und ein Orden hält im Gedränge manchen Puff ab...




                  The rule is simple - "von" is a part of a person's name - If they want to be called like that, it's just good practice to use the name they have to address them.






                  share|improve this answer















                  There's regional differences:



                  In most of southern Germany and Austria "von" and "von und zu" (see below) means "nobility". This can be "old", inherited titles as well as ennobled titles (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who is also a good example of use with and without title: If you refer to von Goethe before 1782, you should omit the "von" - He received his title during that year).



                  "von und zu" means "old nobility" - The family was part of the aristocracy since the middle ages and still sits on their traditional aristocratic estate - Karl Theodor Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg (a former MP and grandfather of former Minister of Defence Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg) would be an example of "old nobility".



                  In the Netherlands, on the other hand, "van" has nothing to do with nobility - it's just the place of origin of a name. Due to geographic proximity, the usage of "von" seems to be at least partially similar in parts of northern Germany.



                  With noble ranks factually abolished in 1919 in Germany, all of this has no longer much meaning - It's just names. The constitution of 1919 claimed:




                  Advantages or disadvantages under the public law caused by birth or social rank are to be suspended. Aristocratic titles are simply part of the name and can no longer be awarded




                  Just like people owning double names ("Müller-Lüdenscheid") that sometimes like to drop part of their name in everyday usage, persons with names containing "van" or "von" might prefer to use or not use that - It's simply a matter of personal preference - Or like Goethe said:




                  Ein Titel und ein Orden hält im Gedränge manchen Puff ab...




                  The rule is simple - "von" is a part of a person's name - If they want to be called like that, it's just good practice to use the name they have to address them.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 7 hours ago

























                  answered 15 hours ago









                  tofrotofro

                  44.4k146133




                  44.4k146133





















                      0














                      As far as I'm aware, the "von" is almost always dropped when referring to a person by surname, except perhaps in very formal circumstances where it would feel rude not to use exactly the correct name, e.g. in the news. (And a newsspeaker would probably use the correct name of a living person. I don't think they'd ever refer to Schiller as "von Schiller".)






                      share|improve this answer


















                      • 3





                        I strongly disagree. One says von Neumann; nobody would understand Neumann.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago











                      • I totally agree. Examples: Beethovenstraße and not von-Beethoven-Straße, Stauffenbergattentat and not von-Stauffenberg-Attentat, Bismarckhering and not von-Bismarck-Hering, etc..

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago











                      • @scienceponder Beethoven is Dutch. In any case, von Neumann is a counterexample.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago












                      • @c.p. sorry a instead of o of course.

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago















                      0














                      As far as I'm aware, the "von" is almost always dropped when referring to a person by surname, except perhaps in very formal circumstances where it would feel rude not to use exactly the correct name, e.g. in the news. (And a newsspeaker would probably use the correct name of a living person. I don't think they'd ever refer to Schiller as "von Schiller".)






                      share|improve this answer


















                      • 3





                        I strongly disagree. One says von Neumann; nobody would understand Neumann.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago











                      • I totally agree. Examples: Beethovenstraße and not von-Beethoven-Straße, Stauffenbergattentat and not von-Stauffenberg-Attentat, Bismarckhering and not von-Bismarck-Hering, etc..

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago











                      • @scienceponder Beethoven is Dutch. In any case, von Neumann is a counterexample.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago












                      • @c.p. sorry a instead of o of course.

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago













                      0












                      0








                      0







                      As far as I'm aware, the "von" is almost always dropped when referring to a person by surname, except perhaps in very formal circumstances where it would feel rude not to use exactly the correct name, e.g. in the news. (And a newsspeaker would probably use the correct name of a living person. I don't think they'd ever refer to Schiller as "von Schiller".)






                      share|improve this answer













                      As far as I'm aware, the "von" is almost always dropped when referring to a person by surname, except perhaps in very formal circumstances where it would feel rude not to use exactly the correct name, e.g. in the news. (And a newsspeaker would probably use the correct name of a living person. I don't think they'd ever refer to Schiller as "von Schiller".)







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 15 hours ago









                      sgfsgf

                      2,002422




                      2,002422







                      • 3





                        I strongly disagree. One says von Neumann; nobody would understand Neumann.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago











                      • I totally agree. Examples: Beethovenstraße and not von-Beethoven-Straße, Stauffenbergattentat and not von-Stauffenberg-Attentat, Bismarckhering and not von-Bismarck-Hering, etc..

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago











                      • @scienceponder Beethoven is Dutch. In any case, von Neumann is a counterexample.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago












                      • @c.p. sorry a instead of o of course.

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago












                      • 3





                        I strongly disagree. One says von Neumann; nobody would understand Neumann.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago











                      • I totally agree. Examples: Beethovenstraße and not von-Beethoven-Straße, Stauffenbergattentat and not von-Stauffenberg-Attentat, Bismarckhering and not von-Bismarck-Hering, etc..

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago











                      • @scienceponder Beethoven is Dutch. In any case, von Neumann is a counterexample.

                        – c.p.
                        8 hours ago












                      • @c.p. sorry a instead of o of course.

                        – scienceponder
                        8 hours ago







                      3




                      3





                      I strongly disagree. One says von Neumann; nobody would understand Neumann.

                      – c.p.
                      8 hours ago





                      I strongly disagree. One says von Neumann; nobody would understand Neumann.

                      – c.p.
                      8 hours ago













                      I totally agree. Examples: Beethovenstraße and not von-Beethoven-Straße, Stauffenbergattentat and not von-Stauffenberg-Attentat, Bismarckhering and not von-Bismarck-Hering, etc..

                      – scienceponder
                      8 hours ago





                      I totally agree. Examples: Beethovenstraße and not von-Beethoven-Straße, Stauffenbergattentat and not von-Stauffenberg-Attentat, Bismarckhering and not von-Bismarck-Hering, etc..

                      – scienceponder
                      8 hours ago













                      @scienceponder Beethoven is Dutch. In any case, von Neumann is a counterexample.

                      – c.p.
                      8 hours ago






                      @scienceponder Beethoven is Dutch. In any case, von Neumann is a counterexample.

                      – c.p.
                      8 hours ago














                      @c.p. sorry a instead of o of course.

                      – scienceponder
                      8 hours ago





                      @c.p. sorry a instead of o of course.

                      – scienceponder
                      8 hours ago

















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