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Are clauses with “который” restrictive or non-restrictive by default?
“Left” and “right” in RussianDifference between “какой” and “который”Is there a conceptual difference between “speak” and “say” in Russian?What is the different between “возвратиться” and “вернуться”?Is this how to say “every other day” in Russian?чтобы for connection between prepositions and verbsClauses after non-accusative verbs or тоDifferent 'number' in verb of relative clause using которыйSentence structure in the following sentencesSubtleties of choosing the sequence of tenses in Russian
Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:
Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.
Two interpretations come to my mind:
(1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.
(2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.
Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.
My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?
usage clauses subordinate-clause
add a comment |
Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:
Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.
Two interpretations come to my mind:
(1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.
(2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.
Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.
My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?
usage clauses subordinate-clause
add a comment |
Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:
Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.
Two interpretations come to my mind:
(1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.
(2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.
Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.
My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?
usage clauses subordinate-clause
Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:
Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.
Two interpretations come to my mind:
(1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.
(2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.
Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.
My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?
usage clauses subordinate-clause
usage clauses subordinate-clause
edited 21 mins ago
Mitsuko
asked 2 hours ago
MitsukoMitsuko
414211
414211
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You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.
If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.
If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.
Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.
add a comment |
It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; it is neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:
Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.
- ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...
In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!
- ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...
In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive relative clause with a preceding comma, while others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present preceding comma.
Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.
– Mitsuko
23 mins ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.
If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.
If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.
Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.
add a comment |
You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.
If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.
If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.
Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.
add a comment |
You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.
If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.
If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.
Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.
You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.
If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.
If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.
Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.
answered 25 mins ago
Nikolay ErshovNikolay Ershov
16.6k22968
16.6k22968
add a comment |
add a comment |
It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; it is neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:
Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.
- ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...
In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!
- ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...
In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive relative clause with a preceding comma, while others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present preceding comma.
Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.
– Mitsuko
23 mins ago
add a comment |
It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; it is neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:
Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.
- ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...
In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!
- ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...
In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive relative clause with a preceding comma, while others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present preceding comma.
Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.
– Mitsuko
23 mins ago
add a comment |
It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; it is neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:
Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.
- ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...
In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!
- ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...
In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive relative clause with a preceding comma, while others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present preceding comma.
It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; it is neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:
Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.
- ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...
In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!
- ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...
In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.
Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive relative clause with a preceding comma, while others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present preceding comma.
edited 1 min ago
answered 1 hour ago
Con-gras-tue-les-chiensCon-gras-tue-les-chiens
5,1872517
5,1872517
Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.
– Mitsuko
23 mins ago
add a comment |
Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.
– Mitsuko
23 mins ago
Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.
– Mitsuko
23 mins ago
Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.
– Mitsuko
23 mins ago
add a comment |
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