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Does the set of sets which are elements of every set exist?



Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraThe existence of the empty set is an axiom of ZFC or not?axiom of foundation of Zermelo–Fraenkel set theoryZF: Regularity axiom or axiom schema?There is no infinite sequence $x_1 ni x_2 ni x_3 ni …$Did Cohen need regularity?Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory and Hilbert's axioms for geometryTwo sets which contain each other as elementsHow does the axiom of regularity make sense?Axiom of regularity definitionSets that contain themselves in ZFC










4












$begingroup$


In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = x mid forall y (x in y)
$$

I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
$$

with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$
















    4












    $begingroup$


    In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
    $$
    A = x mid forall y (x in y)
    $$

    I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
    $$
    B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
    $$

    with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?










    share|cite|improve this question









    New contributor




    Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.







    $endgroup$














      4












      4








      4





      $begingroup$


      In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
      $$
      A = x mid forall y (x in y)
      $$

      I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
      $$
      B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
      $$

      with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?










      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor




      Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.







      $endgroup$




      In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
      $$
      A = x mid forall y (x in y)
      $$

      I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
      $$
      B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
      $$

      with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?







      set-theory axioms






      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor




      Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor




      Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 2 hours ago







      Jacob Arbib













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      asked 2 hours ago









      Jacob ArbibJacob Arbib

      235




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      Check out our Code of Conduct.




















          1 Answer
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          $begingroup$

          Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



          We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




          Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



          Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
          if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



          (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




          Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



          This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






          share|cite|improve this answer











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            $begingroup$

            Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



            We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




            Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



            Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
            if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



            (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




            Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



            This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$

















              6












              $begingroup$

              Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



              We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




              Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



              Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
              if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



              (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




              Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



              This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$















                6












                6








                6





                $begingroup$

                Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



                We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




                Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



                Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
                if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



                (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




                Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



                This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



                We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




                Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



                Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
                if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



                (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




                Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



                This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited 2 hours ago

























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                Noah SchweberNoah Schweber

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