In what sense are the equations of motion conserved by symmetries?Invariance of Lagrangian in Noether's theoremIs there a conserved quantity that enforces planar orbits in central force motion?Question about the Noether charge algebraWhat is meant by invariant under change of coordinates **to first order**?Principle of least action: $fracd S_cldt_b = fracpartial S_clpartial t_b + fracpartial S_clpartial x_bdotx_b$Analyzing the free-particle kernel“Strange” right representation of Lie AlgebrasThese conserved quantities are associated to what system?Total energy in rheonomic systemsWhy are some symmetries invisible to the configuration space Lagrangian $L(q, dot q,t)$?Legendre transformation and correspondance between Noether charges and quasi-symmetries

Did Apollo leave poop on the moon?

Could one become a successful researcher by writing some really good papers while being outside academia?

How do I get the =LEFT function in excel, to also take the number zero as the first number?

I was contacted by a private bank overseas to get my inheritance

Why does putting a dot after the URL remove login information?

Casting Goblin Matron with Plague Engineer on the battlefield

Does this put me at risk for identity theft?

Did WWII Japanese soldiers engage in cannibalism of their enemies?

What are good ways to improve as a writer other than writing courses?

Should I self-publish my novella on Amazon or try my luck getting publishers?

Independent table row spacing

Why do implementations of "stdint.h" disagree on the definition of UINT8_C?

Is it really ~648.69 km/s Delta-V to "Land" on the Surface of the Sun?

What are these silver stripes on Cosmic Girl for?

How does The Fools Guild make its money?

If there were no space agencies, could a person go to space?

Does the Voyager team use a wrapper (Fortran(77?) to Python) to transmit current commands?

Why do private jets such as Gulfstream fly higher than other civilian jets?

What was the first multiprocessor x86 motherboard?

How can I make Ubuntu run well (including with wifi) on a 32-bit machine?

Looking for a new job because of relocation - is it okay to tell the real reason?

In Pokémon Go, why does one of my Pikachu have an option to evolve, but another one doesn't?

Where to pee in London?

Is TEXT to VARCHAR(MAX) an implicit conversion?



In what sense are the equations of motion conserved by symmetries?


Invariance of Lagrangian in Noether's theoremIs there a conserved quantity that enforces planar orbits in central force motion?Question about the Noether charge algebraWhat is meant by invariant under change of coordinates **to first order**?Principle of least action: $fracd S_cldt_b = fracpartial S_clpartial t_b + fracpartial S_clpartial x_bdotx_b$Analyzing the free-particle kernel“Strange” right representation of Lie AlgebrasThese conserved quantities are associated to what system?Total energy in rheonomic systemsWhy are some symmetries invisible to the configuration space Lagrangian $L(q, dot q,t)$?Legendre transformation and correspondance between Noether charges and quasi-symmetries






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








3












$begingroup$


I am studying variational principles and I have been reading this set of notes. In the first paragraph of Section 9, the lecturer defines what it means for a transformation to be a symmetry of a system: Section 9



We have $$I[mathbf Q]=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf Q, mathbf dot Q, t]dt=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf q, mathbf dot q, t]dt+K(t_B)-K(t_A)=I[mathbf q]+K(t_B)-K(t_A).$$
However, if $K(t)$ can be any differentiable function and can depend on $mathbf q(t)$ and its derivatives, I am quite confused as to what it means to say that the equations of motion for $mathbf Q$ are the same as those for $mathbf q$ and why this is the case.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Adding a constant to a function does not change the location of its minima.
    $endgroup$
    – eyeballfrog
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But if K(t) can depend on q(t) then surely K(t_B) - K(t_A) can also depend on our choice of q(t), i.e. K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not a constant?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    That term is constant as it's evaluated at the endpoints, certainly for different values of the endpoints this number will change, but the term itself is constant. Plus we are talking about the equations of motion which come from finding the extrema of the action so these terms don't contribute
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But unless we fix the values of the derivatives of q at the boundary, surely the value of K at the boundary depends on our choice of q(t)? I thought that Hamilton's principle only specified that the value of q, but not necessarily its derivatives, had to be fixed at the boundary. Is this incorrect or am I missing something else?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    True but usually the assumption is that the paths are smooth functions of the variables in question.
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    3 hours ago

















3












$begingroup$


I am studying variational principles and I have been reading this set of notes. In the first paragraph of Section 9, the lecturer defines what it means for a transformation to be a symmetry of a system: Section 9



We have $$I[mathbf Q]=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf Q, mathbf dot Q, t]dt=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf q, mathbf dot q, t]dt+K(t_B)-K(t_A)=I[mathbf q]+K(t_B)-K(t_A).$$
However, if $K(t)$ can be any differentiable function and can depend on $mathbf q(t)$ and its derivatives, I am quite confused as to what it means to say that the equations of motion for $mathbf Q$ are the same as those for $mathbf q$ and why this is the case.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Adding a constant to a function does not change the location of its minima.
    $endgroup$
    – eyeballfrog
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But if K(t) can depend on q(t) then surely K(t_B) - K(t_A) can also depend on our choice of q(t), i.e. K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not a constant?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    That term is constant as it's evaluated at the endpoints, certainly for different values of the endpoints this number will change, but the term itself is constant. Plus we are talking about the equations of motion which come from finding the extrema of the action so these terms don't contribute
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But unless we fix the values of the derivatives of q at the boundary, surely the value of K at the boundary depends on our choice of q(t)? I thought that Hamilton's principle only specified that the value of q, but not necessarily its derivatives, had to be fixed at the boundary. Is this incorrect or am I missing something else?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    True but usually the assumption is that the paths are smooth functions of the variables in question.
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    3 hours ago













3












3








3


0



$begingroup$


I am studying variational principles and I have been reading this set of notes. In the first paragraph of Section 9, the lecturer defines what it means for a transformation to be a symmetry of a system: Section 9



We have $$I[mathbf Q]=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf Q, mathbf dot Q, t]dt=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf q, mathbf dot q, t]dt+K(t_B)-K(t_A)=I[mathbf q]+K(t_B)-K(t_A).$$
However, if $K(t)$ can be any differentiable function and can depend on $mathbf q(t)$ and its derivatives, I am quite confused as to what it means to say that the equations of motion for $mathbf Q$ are the same as those for $mathbf q$ and why this is the case.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




I am studying variational principles and I have been reading this set of notes. In the first paragraph of Section 9, the lecturer defines what it means for a transformation to be a symmetry of a system: Section 9



We have $$I[mathbf Q]=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf Q, mathbf dot Q, t]dt=int_t_A^t_B L[mathbf q, mathbf dot q, t]dt+K(t_B)-K(t_A)=I[mathbf q]+K(t_B)-K(t_A).$$
However, if $K(t)$ can be any differentiable function and can depend on $mathbf q(t)$ and its derivatives, I am quite confused as to what it means to say that the equations of motion for $mathbf Q$ are the same as those for $mathbf q$ and why this is the case.







symmetry variational-principle noethers-theorem






share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago







MB2269













New contributor



MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked 9 hours ago









MB2269MB2269

162 bronze badges




162 bronze badges




New contributor



MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




MB2269 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • $begingroup$
    Adding a constant to a function does not change the location of its minima.
    $endgroup$
    – eyeballfrog
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But if K(t) can depend on q(t) then surely K(t_B) - K(t_A) can also depend on our choice of q(t), i.e. K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not a constant?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    That term is constant as it's evaluated at the endpoints, certainly for different values of the endpoints this number will change, but the term itself is constant. Plus we are talking about the equations of motion which come from finding the extrema of the action so these terms don't contribute
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But unless we fix the values of the derivatives of q at the boundary, surely the value of K at the boundary depends on our choice of q(t)? I thought that Hamilton's principle only specified that the value of q, but not necessarily its derivatives, had to be fixed at the boundary. Is this incorrect or am I missing something else?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    True but usually the assumption is that the paths are smooth functions of the variables in question.
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    3 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Adding a constant to a function does not change the location of its minima.
    $endgroup$
    – eyeballfrog
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But if K(t) can depend on q(t) then surely K(t_B) - K(t_A) can also depend on our choice of q(t), i.e. K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not a constant?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    That term is constant as it's evaluated at the endpoints, certainly for different values of the endpoints this number will change, but the term itself is constant. Plus we are talking about the equations of motion which come from finding the extrema of the action so these terms don't contribute
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    But unless we fix the values of the derivatives of q at the boundary, surely the value of K at the boundary depends on our choice of q(t)? I thought that Hamilton's principle only specified that the value of q, but not necessarily its derivatives, had to be fixed at the boundary. Is this incorrect or am I missing something else?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    True but usually the assumption is that the paths are smooth functions of the variables in question.
    $endgroup$
    – Triatticus
    3 hours ago















$begingroup$
Adding a constant to a function does not change the location of its minima.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Adding a constant to a function does not change the location of its minima.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
But if K(t) can depend on q(t) then surely K(t_B) - K(t_A) can also depend on our choice of q(t), i.e. K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not a constant?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
But if K(t) can depend on q(t) then surely K(t_B) - K(t_A) can also depend on our choice of q(t), i.e. K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not a constant?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
That term is constant as it's evaluated at the endpoints, certainly for different values of the endpoints this number will change, but the term itself is constant. Plus we are talking about the equations of motion which come from finding the extrema of the action so these terms don't contribute
$endgroup$
– Triatticus
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
That term is constant as it's evaluated at the endpoints, certainly for different values of the endpoints this number will change, but the term itself is constant. Plus we are talking about the equations of motion which come from finding the extrema of the action so these terms don't contribute
$endgroup$
– Triatticus
6 hours ago












$begingroup$
But unless we fix the values of the derivatives of q at the boundary, surely the value of K at the boundary depends on our choice of q(t)? I thought that Hamilton's principle only specified that the value of q, but not necessarily its derivatives, had to be fixed at the boundary. Is this incorrect or am I missing something else?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
But unless we fix the values of the derivatives of q at the boundary, surely the value of K at the boundary depends on our choice of q(t)? I thought that Hamilton's principle only specified that the value of q, but not necessarily its derivatives, had to be fixed at the boundary. Is this incorrect or am I missing something else?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
6 hours ago












$begingroup$
True but usually the assumption is that the paths are smooth functions of the variables in question.
$endgroup$
– Triatticus
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
True but usually the assumption is that the paths are smooth functions of the variables in question.
$endgroup$
– Triatticus
3 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

  1. Townsend assumes that the two Lagrangians $L$ in eq. (9.1) are the same function (although their arguments are obviously different). This is strictly speaking not necessarily if we are only interested in Euler-Lagrange (EL) equations, which OP asks about, although Townsend has of course Noether's theorem in mind a couple of pages later in his notes.


  2. Townsend allows $Q(t)$ to depend on $dotq(t)$. If the Lagrangian $L$ is first-order in $Q$ typically it then becomes second-order in $q$. If eq. (9.1) holds then the second-order terms must hide in the boundary terms. This might have implications for appropriate boundary conditions (BCs) necessary for the existence of functional/variational derivative for the action, and in turn, EL equations.


  3. More generally, given two action functionals which satisfy
    $$ tildeS[Q] ~=~ S[q] ~+~ textboundary terms, tagA$$
    where
    $$Q(t)~=~f(q(t),dotq(t),ddotq(t), ldots ;t).tagB$$
    Moreover, assume that we have imposed appropriate boundary conditions (BCs)
    that ensure that both functional derivatives
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t) qquad textand qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)tagC$$
    exist.
    Then the statement (which Townsend is aiming at) is that the EL equations
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t)~approx~0qquad stackrel(B)Leftrightarrow qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)~approx~0 tagD$$
    are equivalent under the map (B).


  4. Finally, it seem relevant here to mention the notion of a quasi-symmetry.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    I understand now that 3. is what Townsend is trying to convey but isn't it only true if the values of all of the derivatives of q on which K depends are fixed at the boundary?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Morally yes, but the specific details are more complicated. This is why we speak of appropriate BCs.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    5 hours ago



















1












$begingroup$

Just have a look at the Euler-Lagrange equations, which are the equation of motion in the Langrange theory for the $mathbfQ$ and $mathbfq$.
It is the case because this equations come from the functional derivative of $I$ and if $I$ is invariant under the transformation $mathbfq rightarrow mathbfQ$, then the equations of motion are the same.






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor



Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    But how can we say that I is invariant under the transformation if K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not necessarily 0?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I only know it in covariant form, that you can add $partial_mu F^mu$ so that with gaussian law, the boundary terms are zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan2103
    4 hours ago



















1












$begingroup$

So the important thing is simply that it take the form of a total derivative, even if that symbolically involves the expressions for $mathbf q$ and its derivatives. So for example it could take the form $mathbf q dotmathbf q,$ and that’s fine because it is symbolically a total derivative.



Background: the Lagrangian doesn’t know about paths



Backing up one step to explain this better: we start from a notion of paths, which map a time interval, say $tin(0, T)$, to a bunch of vectors in a coördinate space, say $mathbf q(t)$ in $mathbb R^3n$ for $n$ particles in unconstrained 3D space, although one of the great strengths about the Lagrangian formalism is that it does not care about how you parameterize the space and therefore you can impose constraints on the space without messy constraint forces. Call the time interval $mathsf T$ and the coördinate space $mathsf C$, paths are functions $mathsf T to mathsf C.$ [If you really want to go streamlined-and-abstract, you can also make time one of the coördinates in the space and take $mathsf T = (0, 1)$ or so, as a “progress along the path” parameter rather than a “time” parameter.]



We then invent action principles, we say that the laws of physics can somehow be encoded in a function $ mathcal S: (mathsf Ttomathsf C)to mathbb R,$ assigning numbers to paths. Then we are saying that of all the paths which a particle can take between two points in $mathsf C$, the ones that it does take according to physics are the ones where for all path-perturbations $delta mathbfq$ vanishing at the endpoints of $mathsf T$, $$ S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q] approx S[mathbf q]$$to first order in $delta mathbf q.$ Obviously this doesn’t really help us if we don’t have some additional structure, which is why we impose the Lagrangian structure. Now this is important, while $S$ only has one path and has to deal with strange things like “taking derivatives with respect to time” of that path, the Lagrangian doesn’t really know about those.



An $n^textth$ order Lagrangian is just a function from $n+1$ coördinates and one time to the real numbers. It doesn’t know, as a function, that its various coördinates are going to come from different paths or that those paths are connected to each other by time derivatives in the action principle. It’s just a function $L : mathsf T times mathsf C^n+1 to mathbb R.$ The fact that these arguments are symbolic derivatives comes from the fact that we assume that the action principle $S$ can be phrased in terms of $L$ by an expression of the form, $$S[mathbf q] = int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig).$$ Note that the logic has us generate $n$ paths from the one path, then we evaluate them at some position upon the path, feed them to the Lagrangian, get a number, and then sum those numbers for all points along the path. Then you know the rest of the major part of this story: we do this path-perturbation procedure and find that assuming $L$ is a nice function then it has partials with respect to all of its $mathbf q_0,1,2,dots n$ arguments, not knowing that $q_i$ corresponds to a coördinate of the $i^textth$ time derivative of a path; and if the coordinate space is a vector space then we understand these partials as covectors $mathsf Ctomathbb R$. These partials mean that to first order,
$$
beginalign
S[mathbf q + deltamathbf q] &=int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t) + deltamathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t) + deltadotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t) + deltaddotmathbf q(t), dotsbig)\
&approxint_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + sum_i=0^nfracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_icdot left(fracd~dtright)^idelta mathbf qright]
endalign,$$
and we then integrate-by-parts all of these time derivatives away into boundary terms which vanish because $delta q, delta dot q, dots = 0$ at the boundaries of $mathsf T,$ getting the Euler-Lagrange equations of motion,$$0 = sum_i=0^n (-1)^i ~ left(fracd~dtright)^i fracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_i.$$



Now, interpreting these equations requires a sort of “dance” in your head!



  1. First, we take the partial derivatives of the Lagrangian ignoring the connections of the different derivatives to each other, that is what $partial L / partial q_i$ means.

  2. Then, we insert into those functions the actual path $q(t)$ and its derivatives $dot q, ddot q$.

  3. Then, we take the total time derivatives with respect to $t,$ and insert minus signs corresponding to integration-by-parts.

  4. And only after all of that is done, does the resulting expression need to be equal to zero.

It was very important to me, in resolving the sort of confusion that you are dealing with now, to see that this step 2 sits in the middle of this interpretation. I even had a professor at Cornell who taught me all this confess “I’m actually not completely sure why we take partials and then total derivatives, but that is what the mathematicians and textbooks tell me to do.” It is the same confusion.



But we know about paths



Now, we usually impose our knowledge of the relationship upon the equations. We don’t write $q_0,1,dots n-1$ but rather $q, dot q, ddot q$ as if we were taking derivatives. From the perspective of the Lagrangian these are all just symbols, but we abuse the notation for the sake of our own sanity.



Now we come to this total-time-derivative invariance. The Lagrangian function itself does not know that its arguments are time derivatives, but we know that certain assemblies like $dot q ddot q$ or $q dot q$ or $q ddot q + dot q^2$ are all total time derivatives of something.



Given a total time-derivative, it cannot affect the equations of motion. And the proof is really simple, we go back to the place where the equations of motion came from: the principle of least action $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$



If we add a total time derivative of something to our Lagrangian, our action principle looks like, for some symbolic expression $K$, $$beginalign
S'[mathbf q] &= int_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + fracdKdtright]\
&= S[mathbf q] + K[mathbf q_1,dotmathbf q_1, ddotmathbf q_1, dots] - K[mathbf q_0,dotmathbf q_0, ddotmathbf q_0, dots]
endalign
$$
where subscript $1$ indicates the final value at the end of $mathsf T$ and subscript $0$ indicates the initial value. You substitute this with $q + delta q$ and none of these $K$ terms change because after the perturbation, $q_0,1, dot q_0,1, dots$ are all the same: $delta q$ vanishes for all of these.



So $K$ just vanishes when we try to analyze the actual physics of the system $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$ Whatever number it is, it is the same number on both sides and gets subtracted out.



You can formalize this by saying that you can always add or subtract any expression to/from a Lagrangian that looks like a total time derivative. It does not preserve the identity of the Lagrangian, it does not even preserve the value of the action integral, but it only introduces a boundary term into the results of the action integral and therefore it must disappear when the equations of motion are considered.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for such a clear explanation. I still have one question though. Why can we assume that the values of the derivatives of q are fixed at the boundary of T? Doesn't Hamilton's principle only specify that the value of q must be fixed at the boundary but not necessarily the values of its derivatives?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @MB2269 That's a fair question. Let $X^(n)$ mean $(d/dt)^n X.$ I think the answer is that, just because I fix $delta q^(n)=0$ for all $n$, that doesn't mean that I fix anything about $q^(n)$. So in my preferred understanding, the perturbations $delta q$ decay to zero like bump functions but still reveal all this rich internal structure; then you discover that the solutions to those equations-of-motion can fail to exist when you over-specify the BCs: so the equations-of-motion push back on you, “I can’t also specify the velocities—sorry!”
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you saying that we are free to specify the BCs as much as we like, e.g. specifying that d/dt(δq) = 0 on the boundary, provided that we don't over-specify so that there are no longer solutions to the E-L equations?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I am saying that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries doesn't tell you anything about $dot q$ on the boundaries. Or if you look at how this functions mechanically, it seems to me like the set of solutions for $q$ you get when you assume that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries is a superset of the solutions when you assume that it is not—boundary terms looking like $q~delta dot q$ could be safely neglected in the one case but not the other, for example. So the question to me is really just “how many new solutions are we adding here?” and I am not sure that I should be scared by the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    4 hours ago














Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);






MB2269 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f495872%2fin-what-sense-are-the-equations-of-motion-conserved-by-symmetries%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

  1. Townsend assumes that the two Lagrangians $L$ in eq. (9.1) are the same function (although their arguments are obviously different). This is strictly speaking not necessarily if we are only interested in Euler-Lagrange (EL) equations, which OP asks about, although Townsend has of course Noether's theorem in mind a couple of pages later in his notes.


  2. Townsend allows $Q(t)$ to depend on $dotq(t)$. If the Lagrangian $L$ is first-order in $Q$ typically it then becomes second-order in $q$. If eq. (9.1) holds then the second-order terms must hide in the boundary terms. This might have implications for appropriate boundary conditions (BCs) necessary for the existence of functional/variational derivative for the action, and in turn, EL equations.


  3. More generally, given two action functionals which satisfy
    $$ tildeS[Q] ~=~ S[q] ~+~ textboundary terms, tagA$$
    where
    $$Q(t)~=~f(q(t),dotq(t),ddotq(t), ldots ;t).tagB$$
    Moreover, assume that we have imposed appropriate boundary conditions (BCs)
    that ensure that both functional derivatives
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t) qquad textand qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)tagC$$
    exist.
    Then the statement (which Townsend is aiming at) is that the EL equations
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t)~approx~0qquad stackrel(B)Leftrightarrow qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)~approx~0 tagD$$
    are equivalent under the map (B).


  4. Finally, it seem relevant here to mention the notion of a quasi-symmetry.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    I understand now that 3. is what Townsend is trying to convey but isn't it only true if the values of all of the derivatives of q on which K depends are fixed at the boundary?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Morally yes, but the specific details are more complicated. This is why we speak of appropriate BCs.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    5 hours ago
















2












$begingroup$

  1. Townsend assumes that the two Lagrangians $L$ in eq. (9.1) are the same function (although their arguments are obviously different). This is strictly speaking not necessarily if we are only interested in Euler-Lagrange (EL) equations, which OP asks about, although Townsend has of course Noether's theorem in mind a couple of pages later in his notes.


  2. Townsend allows $Q(t)$ to depend on $dotq(t)$. If the Lagrangian $L$ is first-order in $Q$ typically it then becomes second-order in $q$. If eq. (9.1) holds then the second-order terms must hide in the boundary terms. This might have implications for appropriate boundary conditions (BCs) necessary for the existence of functional/variational derivative for the action, and in turn, EL equations.


  3. More generally, given two action functionals which satisfy
    $$ tildeS[Q] ~=~ S[q] ~+~ textboundary terms, tagA$$
    where
    $$Q(t)~=~f(q(t),dotq(t),ddotq(t), ldots ;t).tagB$$
    Moreover, assume that we have imposed appropriate boundary conditions (BCs)
    that ensure that both functional derivatives
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t) qquad textand qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)tagC$$
    exist.
    Then the statement (which Townsend is aiming at) is that the EL equations
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t)~approx~0qquad stackrel(B)Leftrightarrow qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)~approx~0 tagD$$
    are equivalent under the map (B).


  4. Finally, it seem relevant here to mention the notion of a quasi-symmetry.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    I understand now that 3. is what Townsend is trying to convey but isn't it only true if the values of all of the derivatives of q on which K depends are fixed at the boundary?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Morally yes, but the specific details are more complicated. This is why we speak of appropriate BCs.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    5 hours ago














2












2








2





$begingroup$

  1. Townsend assumes that the two Lagrangians $L$ in eq. (9.1) are the same function (although their arguments are obviously different). This is strictly speaking not necessarily if we are only interested in Euler-Lagrange (EL) equations, which OP asks about, although Townsend has of course Noether's theorem in mind a couple of pages later in his notes.


  2. Townsend allows $Q(t)$ to depend on $dotq(t)$. If the Lagrangian $L$ is first-order in $Q$ typically it then becomes second-order in $q$. If eq. (9.1) holds then the second-order terms must hide in the boundary terms. This might have implications for appropriate boundary conditions (BCs) necessary for the existence of functional/variational derivative for the action, and in turn, EL equations.


  3. More generally, given two action functionals which satisfy
    $$ tildeS[Q] ~=~ S[q] ~+~ textboundary terms, tagA$$
    where
    $$Q(t)~=~f(q(t),dotq(t),ddotq(t), ldots ;t).tagB$$
    Moreover, assume that we have imposed appropriate boundary conditions (BCs)
    that ensure that both functional derivatives
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t) qquad textand qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)tagC$$
    exist.
    Then the statement (which Townsend is aiming at) is that the EL equations
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t)~approx~0qquad stackrel(B)Leftrightarrow qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)~approx~0 tagD$$
    are equivalent under the map (B).


  4. Finally, it seem relevant here to mention the notion of a quasi-symmetry.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



  1. Townsend assumes that the two Lagrangians $L$ in eq. (9.1) are the same function (although their arguments are obviously different). This is strictly speaking not necessarily if we are only interested in Euler-Lagrange (EL) equations, which OP asks about, although Townsend has of course Noether's theorem in mind a couple of pages later in his notes.


  2. Townsend allows $Q(t)$ to depend on $dotq(t)$. If the Lagrangian $L$ is first-order in $Q$ typically it then becomes second-order in $q$. If eq. (9.1) holds then the second-order terms must hide in the boundary terms. This might have implications for appropriate boundary conditions (BCs) necessary for the existence of functional/variational derivative for the action, and in turn, EL equations.


  3. More generally, given two action functionals which satisfy
    $$ tildeS[Q] ~=~ S[q] ~+~ textboundary terms, tagA$$
    where
    $$Q(t)~=~f(q(t),dotq(t),ddotq(t), ldots ;t).tagB$$
    Moreover, assume that we have imposed appropriate boundary conditions (BCs)
    that ensure that both functional derivatives
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t) qquad textand qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)tagC$$
    exist.
    Then the statement (which Townsend is aiming at) is that the EL equations
    $$ fracdelta S[q]delta q(t)~approx~0qquad stackrel(B)Leftrightarrow qquad fracdelta tildeS[Q]delta Q(t)~approx~0 tagD$$
    are equivalent under the map (B).


  4. Finally, it seem relevant here to mention the notion of a quasi-symmetry.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago

























answered 7 hours ago









QmechanicQmechanic

112k13 gold badges216 silver badges1323 bronze badges




112k13 gold badges216 silver badges1323 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    I understand now that 3. is what Townsend is trying to convey but isn't it only true if the values of all of the derivatives of q on which K depends are fixed at the boundary?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Morally yes, but the specific details are more complicated. This is why we speak of appropriate BCs.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    5 hours ago

















  • $begingroup$
    I understand now that 3. is what Townsend is trying to convey but isn't it only true if the values of all of the derivatives of q on which K depends are fixed at the boundary?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Morally yes, but the specific details are more complicated. This is why we speak of appropriate BCs.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    5 hours ago
















$begingroup$
I understand now that 3. is what Townsend is trying to convey but isn't it only true if the values of all of the derivatives of q on which K depends are fixed at the boundary?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
I understand now that 3. is what Townsend is trying to convey but isn't it only true if the values of all of the derivatives of q on which K depends are fixed at the boundary?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
6 hours ago












$begingroup$
Morally yes, but the specific details are more complicated. This is why we speak of appropriate BCs.
$endgroup$
– Qmechanic
5 hours ago





$begingroup$
Morally yes, but the specific details are more complicated. This is why we speak of appropriate BCs.
$endgroup$
– Qmechanic
5 hours ago














1












$begingroup$

Just have a look at the Euler-Lagrange equations, which are the equation of motion in the Langrange theory for the $mathbfQ$ and $mathbfq$.
It is the case because this equations come from the functional derivative of $I$ and if $I$ is invariant under the transformation $mathbfq rightarrow mathbfQ$, then the equations of motion are the same.






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor



Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    But how can we say that I is invariant under the transformation if K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not necessarily 0?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I only know it in covariant form, that you can add $partial_mu F^mu$ so that with gaussian law, the boundary terms are zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan2103
    4 hours ago
















1












$begingroup$

Just have a look at the Euler-Lagrange equations, which are the equation of motion in the Langrange theory for the $mathbfQ$ and $mathbfq$.
It is the case because this equations come from the functional derivative of $I$ and if $I$ is invariant under the transformation $mathbfq rightarrow mathbfQ$, then the equations of motion are the same.






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor



Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    But how can we say that I is invariant under the transformation if K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not necessarily 0?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I only know it in covariant form, that you can add $partial_mu F^mu$ so that with gaussian law, the boundary terms are zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan2103
    4 hours ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$

Just have a look at the Euler-Lagrange equations, which are the equation of motion in the Langrange theory for the $mathbfQ$ and $mathbfq$.
It is the case because this equations come from the functional derivative of $I$ and if $I$ is invariant under the transformation $mathbfq rightarrow mathbfQ$, then the equations of motion are the same.






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor



Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





$endgroup$



Just have a look at the Euler-Lagrange equations, which are the equation of motion in the Langrange theory for the $mathbfQ$ and $mathbfq$.
It is the case because this equations come from the functional derivative of $I$ and if $I$ is invariant under the transformation $mathbfq rightarrow mathbfQ$, then the equations of motion are the same.







share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor



Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer






New contributor



Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








answered 8 hours ago









Jan2103Jan2103

414 bronze badges




414 bronze badges




New contributor



Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




Jan2103 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • $begingroup$
    But how can we say that I is invariant under the transformation if K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not necessarily 0?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I only know it in covariant form, that you can add $partial_mu F^mu$ so that with gaussian law, the boundary terms are zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan2103
    4 hours ago

















  • $begingroup$
    But how can we say that I is invariant under the transformation if K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not necessarily 0?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I only know it in covariant form, that you can add $partial_mu F^mu$ so that with gaussian law, the boundary terms are zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan2103
    4 hours ago
















$begingroup$
But how can we say that I is invariant under the transformation if K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not necessarily 0?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
But how can we say that I is invariant under the transformation if K(t_B) - K(t_A) is not necessarily 0?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
I only know it in covariant form, that you can add $partial_mu F^mu$ so that with gaussian law, the boundary terms are zero.
$endgroup$
– Jan2103
4 hours ago





$begingroup$
I only know it in covariant form, that you can add $partial_mu F^mu$ so that with gaussian law, the boundary terms are zero.
$endgroup$
– Jan2103
4 hours ago












1












$begingroup$

So the important thing is simply that it take the form of a total derivative, even if that symbolically involves the expressions for $mathbf q$ and its derivatives. So for example it could take the form $mathbf q dotmathbf q,$ and that’s fine because it is symbolically a total derivative.



Background: the Lagrangian doesn’t know about paths



Backing up one step to explain this better: we start from a notion of paths, which map a time interval, say $tin(0, T)$, to a bunch of vectors in a coördinate space, say $mathbf q(t)$ in $mathbb R^3n$ for $n$ particles in unconstrained 3D space, although one of the great strengths about the Lagrangian formalism is that it does not care about how you parameterize the space and therefore you can impose constraints on the space without messy constraint forces. Call the time interval $mathsf T$ and the coördinate space $mathsf C$, paths are functions $mathsf T to mathsf C.$ [If you really want to go streamlined-and-abstract, you can also make time one of the coördinates in the space and take $mathsf T = (0, 1)$ or so, as a “progress along the path” parameter rather than a “time” parameter.]



We then invent action principles, we say that the laws of physics can somehow be encoded in a function $ mathcal S: (mathsf Ttomathsf C)to mathbb R,$ assigning numbers to paths. Then we are saying that of all the paths which a particle can take between two points in $mathsf C$, the ones that it does take according to physics are the ones where for all path-perturbations $delta mathbfq$ vanishing at the endpoints of $mathsf T$, $$ S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q] approx S[mathbf q]$$to first order in $delta mathbf q.$ Obviously this doesn’t really help us if we don’t have some additional structure, which is why we impose the Lagrangian structure. Now this is important, while $S$ only has one path and has to deal with strange things like “taking derivatives with respect to time” of that path, the Lagrangian doesn’t really know about those.



An $n^textth$ order Lagrangian is just a function from $n+1$ coördinates and one time to the real numbers. It doesn’t know, as a function, that its various coördinates are going to come from different paths or that those paths are connected to each other by time derivatives in the action principle. It’s just a function $L : mathsf T times mathsf C^n+1 to mathbb R.$ The fact that these arguments are symbolic derivatives comes from the fact that we assume that the action principle $S$ can be phrased in terms of $L$ by an expression of the form, $$S[mathbf q] = int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig).$$ Note that the logic has us generate $n$ paths from the one path, then we evaluate them at some position upon the path, feed them to the Lagrangian, get a number, and then sum those numbers for all points along the path. Then you know the rest of the major part of this story: we do this path-perturbation procedure and find that assuming $L$ is a nice function then it has partials with respect to all of its $mathbf q_0,1,2,dots n$ arguments, not knowing that $q_i$ corresponds to a coördinate of the $i^textth$ time derivative of a path; and if the coordinate space is a vector space then we understand these partials as covectors $mathsf Ctomathbb R$. These partials mean that to first order,
$$
beginalign
S[mathbf q + deltamathbf q] &=int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t) + deltamathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t) + deltadotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t) + deltaddotmathbf q(t), dotsbig)\
&approxint_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + sum_i=0^nfracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_icdot left(fracd~dtright)^idelta mathbf qright]
endalign,$$
and we then integrate-by-parts all of these time derivatives away into boundary terms which vanish because $delta q, delta dot q, dots = 0$ at the boundaries of $mathsf T,$ getting the Euler-Lagrange equations of motion,$$0 = sum_i=0^n (-1)^i ~ left(fracd~dtright)^i fracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_i.$$



Now, interpreting these equations requires a sort of “dance” in your head!



  1. First, we take the partial derivatives of the Lagrangian ignoring the connections of the different derivatives to each other, that is what $partial L / partial q_i$ means.

  2. Then, we insert into those functions the actual path $q(t)$ and its derivatives $dot q, ddot q$.

  3. Then, we take the total time derivatives with respect to $t,$ and insert minus signs corresponding to integration-by-parts.

  4. And only after all of that is done, does the resulting expression need to be equal to zero.

It was very important to me, in resolving the sort of confusion that you are dealing with now, to see that this step 2 sits in the middle of this interpretation. I even had a professor at Cornell who taught me all this confess “I’m actually not completely sure why we take partials and then total derivatives, but that is what the mathematicians and textbooks tell me to do.” It is the same confusion.



But we know about paths



Now, we usually impose our knowledge of the relationship upon the equations. We don’t write $q_0,1,dots n-1$ but rather $q, dot q, ddot q$ as if we were taking derivatives. From the perspective of the Lagrangian these are all just symbols, but we abuse the notation for the sake of our own sanity.



Now we come to this total-time-derivative invariance. The Lagrangian function itself does not know that its arguments are time derivatives, but we know that certain assemblies like $dot q ddot q$ or $q dot q$ or $q ddot q + dot q^2$ are all total time derivatives of something.



Given a total time-derivative, it cannot affect the equations of motion. And the proof is really simple, we go back to the place where the equations of motion came from: the principle of least action $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$



If we add a total time derivative of something to our Lagrangian, our action principle looks like, for some symbolic expression $K$, $$beginalign
S'[mathbf q] &= int_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + fracdKdtright]\
&= S[mathbf q] + K[mathbf q_1,dotmathbf q_1, ddotmathbf q_1, dots] - K[mathbf q_0,dotmathbf q_0, ddotmathbf q_0, dots]
endalign
$$
where subscript $1$ indicates the final value at the end of $mathsf T$ and subscript $0$ indicates the initial value. You substitute this with $q + delta q$ and none of these $K$ terms change because after the perturbation, $q_0,1, dot q_0,1, dots$ are all the same: $delta q$ vanishes for all of these.



So $K$ just vanishes when we try to analyze the actual physics of the system $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$ Whatever number it is, it is the same number on both sides and gets subtracted out.



You can formalize this by saying that you can always add or subtract any expression to/from a Lagrangian that looks like a total time derivative. It does not preserve the identity of the Lagrangian, it does not even preserve the value of the action integral, but it only introduces a boundary term into the results of the action integral and therefore it must disappear when the equations of motion are considered.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for such a clear explanation. I still have one question though. Why can we assume that the values of the derivatives of q are fixed at the boundary of T? Doesn't Hamilton's principle only specify that the value of q must be fixed at the boundary but not necessarily the values of its derivatives?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @MB2269 That's a fair question. Let $X^(n)$ mean $(d/dt)^n X.$ I think the answer is that, just because I fix $delta q^(n)=0$ for all $n$, that doesn't mean that I fix anything about $q^(n)$. So in my preferred understanding, the perturbations $delta q$ decay to zero like bump functions but still reveal all this rich internal structure; then you discover that the solutions to those equations-of-motion can fail to exist when you over-specify the BCs: so the equations-of-motion push back on you, “I can’t also specify the velocities—sorry!”
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you saying that we are free to specify the BCs as much as we like, e.g. specifying that d/dt(δq) = 0 on the boundary, provided that we don't over-specify so that there are no longer solutions to the E-L equations?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I am saying that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries doesn't tell you anything about $dot q$ on the boundaries. Or if you look at how this functions mechanically, it seems to me like the set of solutions for $q$ you get when you assume that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries is a superset of the solutions when you assume that it is not—boundary terms looking like $q~delta dot q$ could be safely neglected in the one case but not the other, for example. So the question to me is really just “how many new solutions are we adding here?” and I am not sure that I should be scared by the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    4 hours ago
















1












$begingroup$

So the important thing is simply that it take the form of a total derivative, even if that symbolically involves the expressions for $mathbf q$ and its derivatives. So for example it could take the form $mathbf q dotmathbf q,$ and that’s fine because it is symbolically a total derivative.



Background: the Lagrangian doesn’t know about paths



Backing up one step to explain this better: we start from a notion of paths, which map a time interval, say $tin(0, T)$, to a bunch of vectors in a coördinate space, say $mathbf q(t)$ in $mathbb R^3n$ for $n$ particles in unconstrained 3D space, although one of the great strengths about the Lagrangian formalism is that it does not care about how you parameterize the space and therefore you can impose constraints on the space without messy constraint forces. Call the time interval $mathsf T$ and the coördinate space $mathsf C$, paths are functions $mathsf T to mathsf C.$ [If you really want to go streamlined-and-abstract, you can also make time one of the coördinates in the space and take $mathsf T = (0, 1)$ or so, as a “progress along the path” parameter rather than a “time” parameter.]



We then invent action principles, we say that the laws of physics can somehow be encoded in a function $ mathcal S: (mathsf Ttomathsf C)to mathbb R,$ assigning numbers to paths. Then we are saying that of all the paths which a particle can take between two points in $mathsf C$, the ones that it does take according to physics are the ones where for all path-perturbations $delta mathbfq$ vanishing at the endpoints of $mathsf T$, $$ S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q] approx S[mathbf q]$$to first order in $delta mathbf q.$ Obviously this doesn’t really help us if we don’t have some additional structure, which is why we impose the Lagrangian structure. Now this is important, while $S$ only has one path and has to deal with strange things like “taking derivatives with respect to time” of that path, the Lagrangian doesn’t really know about those.



An $n^textth$ order Lagrangian is just a function from $n+1$ coördinates and one time to the real numbers. It doesn’t know, as a function, that its various coördinates are going to come from different paths or that those paths are connected to each other by time derivatives in the action principle. It’s just a function $L : mathsf T times mathsf C^n+1 to mathbb R.$ The fact that these arguments are symbolic derivatives comes from the fact that we assume that the action principle $S$ can be phrased in terms of $L$ by an expression of the form, $$S[mathbf q] = int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig).$$ Note that the logic has us generate $n$ paths from the one path, then we evaluate them at some position upon the path, feed them to the Lagrangian, get a number, and then sum those numbers for all points along the path. Then you know the rest of the major part of this story: we do this path-perturbation procedure and find that assuming $L$ is a nice function then it has partials with respect to all of its $mathbf q_0,1,2,dots n$ arguments, not knowing that $q_i$ corresponds to a coördinate of the $i^textth$ time derivative of a path; and if the coordinate space is a vector space then we understand these partials as covectors $mathsf Ctomathbb R$. These partials mean that to first order,
$$
beginalign
S[mathbf q + deltamathbf q] &=int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t) + deltamathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t) + deltadotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t) + deltaddotmathbf q(t), dotsbig)\
&approxint_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + sum_i=0^nfracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_icdot left(fracd~dtright)^idelta mathbf qright]
endalign,$$
and we then integrate-by-parts all of these time derivatives away into boundary terms which vanish because $delta q, delta dot q, dots = 0$ at the boundaries of $mathsf T,$ getting the Euler-Lagrange equations of motion,$$0 = sum_i=0^n (-1)^i ~ left(fracd~dtright)^i fracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_i.$$



Now, interpreting these equations requires a sort of “dance” in your head!



  1. First, we take the partial derivatives of the Lagrangian ignoring the connections of the different derivatives to each other, that is what $partial L / partial q_i$ means.

  2. Then, we insert into those functions the actual path $q(t)$ and its derivatives $dot q, ddot q$.

  3. Then, we take the total time derivatives with respect to $t,$ and insert minus signs corresponding to integration-by-parts.

  4. And only after all of that is done, does the resulting expression need to be equal to zero.

It was very important to me, in resolving the sort of confusion that you are dealing with now, to see that this step 2 sits in the middle of this interpretation. I even had a professor at Cornell who taught me all this confess “I’m actually not completely sure why we take partials and then total derivatives, but that is what the mathematicians and textbooks tell me to do.” It is the same confusion.



But we know about paths



Now, we usually impose our knowledge of the relationship upon the equations. We don’t write $q_0,1,dots n-1$ but rather $q, dot q, ddot q$ as if we were taking derivatives. From the perspective of the Lagrangian these are all just symbols, but we abuse the notation for the sake of our own sanity.



Now we come to this total-time-derivative invariance. The Lagrangian function itself does not know that its arguments are time derivatives, but we know that certain assemblies like $dot q ddot q$ or $q dot q$ or $q ddot q + dot q^2$ are all total time derivatives of something.



Given a total time-derivative, it cannot affect the equations of motion. And the proof is really simple, we go back to the place where the equations of motion came from: the principle of least action $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$



If we add a total time derivative of something to our Lagrangian, our action principle looks like, for some symbolic expression $K$, $$beginalign
S'[mathbf q] &= int_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + fracdKdtright]\
&= S[mathbf q] + K[mathbf q_1,dotmathbf q_1, ddotmathbf q_1, dots] - K[mathbf q_0,dotmathbf q_0, ddotmathbf q_0, dots]
endalign
$$
where subscript $1$ indicates the final value at the end of $mathsf T$ and subscript $0$ indicates the initial value. You substitute this with $q + delta q$ and none of these $K$ terms change because after the perturbation, $q_0,1, dot q_0,1, dots$ are all the same: $delta q$ vanishes for all of these.



So $K$ just vanishes when we try to analyze the actual physics of the system $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$ Whatever number it is, it is the same number on both sides and gets subtracted out.



You can formalize this by saying that you can always add or subtract any expression to/from a Lagrangian that looks like a total time derivative. It does not preserve the identity of the Lagrangian, it does not even preserve the value of the action integral, but it only introduces a boundary term into the results of the action integral and therefore it must disappear when the equations of motion are considered.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for such a clear explanation. I still have one question though. Why can we assume that the values of the derivatives of q are fixed at the boundary of T? Doesn't Hamilton's principle only specify that the value of q must be fixed at the boundary but not necessarily the values of its derivatives?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @MB2269 That's a fair question. Let $X^(n)$ mean $(d/dt)^n X.$ I think the answer is that, just because I fix $delta q^(n)=0$ for all $n$, that doesn't mean that I fix anything about $q^(n)$. So in my preferred understanding, the perturbations $delta q$ decay to zero like bump functions but still reveal all this rich internal structure; then you discover that the solutions to those equations-of-motion can fail to exist when you over-specify the BCs: so the equations-of-motion push back on you, “I can’t also specify the velocities—sorry!”
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you saying that we are free to specify the BCs as much as we like, e.g. specifying that d/dt(δq) = 0 on the boundary, provided that we don't over-specify so that there are no longer solutions to the E-L equations?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I am saying that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries doesn't tell you anything about $dot q$ on the boundaries. Or if you look at how this functions mechanically, it seems to me like the set of solutions for $q$ you get when you assume that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries is a superset of the solutions when you assume that it is not—boundary terms looking like $q~delta dot q$ could be safely neglected in the one case but not the other, for example. So the question to me is really just “how many new solutions are we adding here?” and I am not sure that I should be scared by the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    4 hours ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$

So the important thing is simply that it take the form of a total derivative, even if that symbolically involves the expressions for $mathbf q$ and its derivatives. So for example it could take the form $mathbf q dotmathbf q,$ and that’s fine because it is symbolically a total derivative.



Background: the Lagrangian doesn’t know about paths



Backing up one step to explain this better: we start from a notion of paths, which map a time interval, say $tin(0, T)$, to a bunch of vectors in a coördinate space, say $mathbf q(t)$ in $mathbb R^3n$ for $n$ particles in unconstrained 3D space, although one of the great strengths about the Lagrangian formalism is that it does not care about how you parameterize the space and therefore you can impose constraints on the space without messy constraint forces. Call the time interval $mathsf T$ and the coördinate space $mathsf C$, paths are functions $mathsf T to mathsf C.$ [If you really want to go streamlined-and-abstract, you can also make time one of the coördinates in the space and take $mathsf T = (0, 1)$ or so, as a “progress along the path” parameter rather than a “time” parameter.]



We then invent action principles, we say that the laws of physics can somehow be encoded in a function $ mathcal S: (mathsf Ttomathsf C)to mathbb R,$ assigning numbers to paths. Then we are saying that of all the paths which a particle can take between two points in $mathsf C$, the ones that it does take according to physics are the ones where for all path-perturbations $delta mathbfq$ vanishing at the endpoints of $mathsf T$, $$ S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q] approx S[mathbf q]$$to first order in $delta mathbf q.$ Obviously this doesn’t really help us if we don’t have some additional structure, which is why we impose the Lagrangian structure. Now this is important, while $S$ only has one path and has to deal with strange things like “taking derivatives with respect to time” of that path, the Lagrangian doesn’t really know about those.



An $n^textth$ order Lagrangian is just a function from $n+1$ coördinates and one time to the real numbers. It doesn’t know, as a function, that its various coördinates are going to come from different paths or that those paths are connected to each other by time derivatives in the action principle. It’s just a function $L : mathsf T times mathsf C^n+1 to mathbb R.$ The fact that these arguments are symbolic derivatives comes from the fact that we assume that the action principle $S$ can be phrased in terms of $L$ by an expression of the form, $$S[mathbf q] = int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig).$$ Note that the logic has us generate $n$ paths from the one path, then we evaluate them at some position upon the path, feed them to the Lagrangian, get a number, and then sum those numbers for all points along the path. Then you know the rest of the major part of this story: we do this path-perturbation procedure and find that assuming $L$ is a nice function then it has partials with respect to all of its $mathbf q_0,1,2,dots n$ arguments, not knowing that $q_i$ corresponds to a coördinate of the $i^textth$ time derivative of a path; and if the coordinate space is a vector space then we understand these partials as covectors $mathsf Ctomathbb R$. These partials mean that to first order,
$$
beginalign
S[mathbf q + deltamathbf q] &=int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t) + deltamathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t) + deltadotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t) + deltaddotmathbf q(t), dotsbig)\
&approxint_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + sum_i=0^nfracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_icdot left(fracd~dtright)^idelta mathbf qright]
endalign,$$
and we then integrate-by-parts all of these time derivatives away into boundary terms which vanish because $delta q, delta dot q, dots = 0$ at the boundaries of $mathsf T,$ getting the Euler-Lagrange equations of motion,$$0 = sum_i=0^n (-1)^i ~ left(fracd~dtright)^i fracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_i.$$



Now, interpreting these equations requires a sort of “dance” in your head!



  1. First, we take the partial derivatives of the Lagrangian ignoring the connections of the different derivatives to each other, that is what $partial L / partial q_i$ means.

  2. Then, we insert into those functions the actual path $q(t)$ and its derivatives $dot q, ddot q$.

  3. Then, we take the total time derivatives with respect to $t,$ and insert minus signs corresponding to integration-by-parts.

  4. And only after all of that is done, does the resulting expression need to be equal to zero.

It was very important to me, in resolving the sort of confusion that you are dealing with now, to see that this step 2 sits in the middle of this interpretation. I even had a professor at Cornell who taught me all this confess “I’m actually not completely sure why we take partials and then total derivatives, but that is what the mathematicians and textbooks tell me to do.” It is the same confusion.



But we know about paths



Now, we usually impose our knowledge of the relationship upon the equations. We don’t write $q_0,1,dots n-1$ but rather $q, dot q, ddot q$ as if we were taking derivatives. From the perspective of the Lagrangian these are all just symbols, but we abuse the notation for the sake of our own sanity.



Now we come to this total-time-derivative invariance. The Lagrangian function itself does not know that its arguments are time derivatives, but we know that certain assemblies like $dot q ddot q$ or $q dot q$ or $q ddot q + dot q^2$ are all total time derivatives of something.



Given a total time-derivative, it cannot affect the equations of motion. And the proof is really simple, we go back to the place where the equations of motion came from: the principle of least action $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$



If we add a total time derivative of something to our Lagrangian, our action principle looks like, for some symbolic expression $K$, $$beginalign
S'[mathbf q] &= int_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + fracdKdtright]\
&= S[mathbf q] + K[mathbf q_1,dotmathbf q_1, ddotmathbf q_1, dots] - K[mathbf q_0,dotmathbf q_0, ddotmathbf q_0, dots]
endalign
$$
where subscript $1$ indicates the final value at the end of $mathsf T$ and subscript $0$ indicates the initial value. You substitute this with $q + delta q$ and none of these $K$ terms change because after the perturbation, $q_0,1, dot q_0,1, dots$ are all the same: $delta q$ vanishes for all of these.



So $K$ just vanishes when we try to analyze the actual physics of the system $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$ Whatever number it is, it is the same number on both sides and gets subtracted out.



You can formalize this by saying that you can always add or subtract any expression to/from a Lagrangian that looks like a total time derivative. It does not preserve the identity of the Lagrangian, it does not even preserve the value of the action integral, but it only introduces a boundary term into the results of the action integral and therefore it must disappear when the equations of motion are considered.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



So the important thing is simply that it take the form of a total derivative, even if that symbolically involves the expressions for $mathbf q$ and its derivatives. So for example it could take the form $mathbf q dotmathbf q,$ and that’s fine because it is symbolically a total derivative.



Background: the Lagrangian doesn’t know about paths



Backing up one step to explain this better: we start from a notion of paths, which map a time interval, say $tin(0, T)$, to a bunch of vectors in a coördinate space, say $mathbf q(t)$ in $mathbb R^3n$ for $n$ particles in unconstrained 3D space, although one of the great strengths about the Lagrangian formalism is that it does not care about how you parameterize the space and therefore you can impose constraints on the space without messy constraint forces. Call the time interval $mathsf T$ and the coördinate space $mathsf C$, paths are functions $mathsf T to mathsf C.$ [If you really want to go streamlined-and-abstract, you can also make time one of the coördinates in the space and take $mathsf T = (0, 1)$ or so, as a “progress along the path” parameter rather than a “time” parameter.]



We then invent action principles, we say that the laws of physics can somehow be encoded in a function $ mathcal S: (mathsf Ttomathsf C)to mathbb R,$ assigning numbers to paths. Then we are saying that of all the paths which a particle can take between two points in $mathsf C$, the ones that it does take according to physics are the ones where for all path-perturbations $delta mathbfq$ vanishing at the endpoints of $mathsf T$, $$ S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q] approx S[mathbf q]$$to first order in $delta mathbf q.$ Obviously this doesn’t really help us if we don’t have some additional structure, which is why we impose the Lagrangian structure. Now this is important, while $S$ only has one path and has to deal with strange things like “taking derivatives with respect to time” of that path, the Lagrangian doesn’t really know about those.



An $n^textth$ order Lagrangian is just a function from $n+1$ coördinates and one time to the real numbers. It doesn’t know, as a function, that its various coördinates are going to come from different paths or that those paths are connected to each other by time derivatives in the action principle. It’s just a function $L : mathsf T times mathsf C^n+1 to mathbb R.$ The fact that these arguments are symbolic derivatives comes from the fact that we assume that the action principle $S$ can be phrased in terms of $L$ by an expression of the form, $$S[mathbf q] = int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig).$$ Note that the logic has us generate $n$ paths from the one path, then we evaluate them at some position upon the path, feed them to the Lagrangian, get a number, and then sum those numbers for all points along the path. Then you know the rest of the major part of this story: we do this path-perturbation procedure and find that assuming $L$ is a nice function then it has partials with respect to all of its $mathbf q_0,1,2,dots n$ arguments, not knowing that $q_i$ corresponds to a coördinate of the $i^textth$ time derivative of a path; and if the coordinate space is a vector space then we understand these partials as covectors $mathsf Ctomathbb R$. These partials mean that to first order,
$$
beginalign
S[mathbf q + deltamathbf q] &=int_mathsf T dt~Lbig(t, mathbf q(t) + deltamathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t) + deltadotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t) + deltaddotmathbf q(t), dotsbig)\
&approxint_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + sum_i=0^nfracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_icdot left(fracd~dtright)^idelta mathbf qright]
endalign,$$
and we then integrate-by-parts all of these time derivatives away into boundary terms which vanish because $delta q, delta dot q, dots = 0$ at the boundaries of $mathsf T,$ getting the Euler-Lagrange equations of motion,$$0 = sum_i=0^n (-1)^i ~ left(fracd~dtright)^i fracpartial Lpartial mathbf q_i.$$



Now, interpreting these equations requires a sort of “dance” in your head!



  1. First, we take the partial derivatives of the Lagrangian ignoring the connections of the different derivatives to each other, that is what $partial L / partial q_i$ means.

  2. Then, we insert into those functions the actual path $q(t)$ and its derivatives $dot q, ddot q$.

  3. Then, we take the total time derivatives with respect to $t,$ and insert minus signs corresponding to integration-by-parts.

  4. And only after all of that is done, does the resulting expression need to be equal to zero.

It was very important to me, in resolving the sort of confusion that you are dealing with now, to see that this step 2 sits in the middle of this interpretation. I even had a professor at Cornell who taught me all this confess “I’m actually not completely sure why we take partials and then total derivatives, but that is what the mathematicians and textbooks tell me to do.” It is the same confusion.



But we know about paths



Now, we usually impose our knowledge of the relationship upon the equations. We don’t write $q_0,1,dots n-1$ but rather $q, dot q, ddot q$ as if we were taking derivatives. From the perspective of the Lagrangian these are all just symbols, but we abuse the notation for the sake of our own sanity.



Now we come to this total-time-derivative invariance. The Lagrangian function itself does not know that its arguments are time derivatives, but we know that certain assemblies like $dot q ddot q$ or $q dot q$ or $q ddot q + dot q^2$ are all total time derivatives of something.



Given a total time-derivative, it cannot affect the equations of motion. And the proof is really simple, we go back to the place where the equations of motion came from: the principle of least action $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$



If we add a total time derivative of something to our Lagrangian, our action principle looks like, for some symbolic expression $K$, $$beginalign
S'[mathbf q] &= int_mathsf T dt~left[Lbig(t, mathbf q(t), dotmathbf q(t), ddot mathbf q(t), dotsbig) + fracdKdtright]\
&= S[mathbf q] + K[mathbf q_1,dotmathbf q_1, ddotmathbf q_1, dots] - K[mathbf q_0,dotmathbf q_0, ddotmathbf q_0, dots]
endalign
$$
where subscript $1$ indicates the final value at the end of $mathsf T$ and subscript $0$ indicates the initial value. You substitute this with $q + delta q$ and none of these $K$ terms change because after the perturbation, $q_0,1, dot q_0,1, dots$ are all the same: $delta q$ vanishes for all of these.



So $K$ just vanishes when we try to analyze the actual physics of the system $S[mathbf q + delta mathbf q]approx S[mathbf q].$ Whatever number it is, it is the same number on both sides and gets subtracted out.



You can formalize this by saying that you can always add or subtract any expression to/from a Lagrangian that looks like a total time derivative. It does not preserve the identity of the Lagrangian, it does not even preserve the value of the action integral, but it only introduces a boundary term into the results of the action integral and therefore it must disappear when the equations of motion are considered.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 5 hours ago

























answered 7 hours ago









CR DrostCR Drost

24.9k2 gold badges23 silver badges70 bronze badges




24.9k2 gold badges23 silver badges70 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for such a clear explanation. I still have one question though. Why can we assume that the values of the derivatives of q are fixed at the boundary of T? Doesn't Hamilton's principle only specify that the value of q must be fixed at the boundary but not necessarily the values of its derivatives?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @MB2269 That's a fair question. Let $X^(n)$ mean $(d/dt)^n X.$ I think the answer is that, just because I fix $delta q^(n)=0$ for all $n$, that doesn't mean that I fix anything about $q^(n)$. So in my preferred understanding, the perturbations $delta q$ decay to zero like bump functions but still reveal all this rich internal structure; then you discover that the solutions to those equations-of-motion can fail to exist when you over-specify the BCs: so the equations-of-motion push back on you, “I can’t also specify the velocities—sorry!”
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you saying that we are free to specify the BCs as much as we like, e.g. specifying that d/dt(δq) = 0 on the boundary, provided that we don't over-specify so that there are no longer solutions to the E-L equations?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I am saying that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries doesn't tell you anything about $dot q$ on the boundaries. Or if you look at how this functions mechanically, it seems to me like the set of solutions for $q$ you get when you assume that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries is a superset of the solutions when you assume that it is not—boundary terms looking like $q~delta dot q$ could be safely neglected in the one case but not the other, for example. So the question to me is really just “how many new solutions are we adding here?” and I am not sure that I should be scared by the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    4 hours ago

















  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for such a clear explanation. I still have one question though. Why can we assume that the values of the derivatives of q are fixed at the boundary of T? Doesn't Hamilton's principle only specify that the value of q must be fixed at the boundary but not necessarily the values of its derivatives?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @MB2269 That's a fair question. Let $X^(n)$ mean $(d/dt)^n X.$ I think the answer is that, just because I fix $delta q^(n)=0$ for all $n$, that doesn't mean that I fix anything about $q^(n)$. So in my preferred understanding, the perturbations $delta q$ decay to zero like bump functions but still reveal all this rich internal structure; then you discover that the solutions to those equations-of-motion can fail to exist when you over-specify the BCs: so the equations-of-motion push back on you, “I can’t also specify the velocities—sorry!”
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you saying that we are free to specify the BCs as much as we like, e.g. specifying that d/dt(δq) = 0 on the boundary, provided that we don't over-specify so that there are no longer solutions to the E-L equations?
    $endgroup$
    – MB2269
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I am saying that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries doesn't tell you anything about $dot q$ on the boundaries. Or if you look at how this functions mechanically, it seems to me like the set of solutions for $q$ you get when you assume that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries is a superset of the solutions when you assume that it is not—boundary terms looking like $q~delta dot q$ could be safely neglected in the one case but not the other, for example. So the question to me is really just “how many new solutions are we adding here?” and I am not sure that I should be scared by the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    4 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Thank you for such a clear explanation. I still have one question though. Why can we assume that the values of the derivatives of q are fixed at the boundary of T? Doesn't Hamilton's principle only specify that the value of q must be fixed at the boundary but not necessarily the values of its derivatives?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
Thank you for such a clear explanation. I still have one question though. Why can we assume that the values of the derivatives of q are fixed at the boundary of T? Doesn't Hamilton's principle only specify that the value of q must be fixed at the boundary but not necessarily the values of its derivatives?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
6 hours ago












$begingroup$
@MB2269 That's a fair question. Let $X^(n)$ mean $(d/dt)^n X.$ I think the answer is that, just because I fix $delta q^(n)=0$ for all $n$, that doesn't mean that I fix anything about $q^(n)$. So in my preferred understanding, the perturbations $delta q$ decay to zero like bump functions but still reveal all this rich internal structure; then you discover that the solutions to those equations-of-motion can fail to exist when you over-specify the BCs: so the equations-of-motion push back on you, “I can’t also specify the velocities—sorry!”
$endgroup$
– CR Drost
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
@MB2269 That's a fair question. Let $X^(n)$ mean $(d/dt)^n X.$ I think the answer is that, just because I fix $delta q^(n)=0$ for all $n$, that doesn't mean that I fix anything about $q^(n)$. So in my preferred understanding, the perturbations $delta q$ decay to zero like bump functions but still reveal all this rich internal structure; then you discover that the solutions to those equations-of-motion can fail to exist when you over-specify the BCs: so the equations-of-motion push back on you, “I can’t also specify the velocities—sorry!”
$endgroup$
– CR Drost
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
Are you saying that we are free to specify the BCs as much as we like, e.g. specifying that d/dt(δq) = 0 on the boundary, provided that we don't over-specify so that there are no longer solutions to the E-L equations?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
5 hours ago





$begingroup$
Are you saying that we are free to specify the BCs as much as we like, e.g. specifying that d/dt(δq) = 0 on the boundary, provided that we don't over-specify so that there are no longer solutions to the E-L equations?
$endgroup$
– MB2269
5 hours ago













$begingroup$
I am saying that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries doesn't tell you anything about $dot q$ on the boundaries. Or if you look at how this functions mechanically, it seems to me like the set of solutions for $q$ you get when you assume that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries is a superset of the solutions when you assume that it is not—boundary terms looking like $q~delta dot q$ could be safely neglected in the one case but not the other, for example. So the question to me is really just “how many new solutions are we adding here?” and I am not sure that I should be scared by the answer.
$endgroup$
– CR Drost
4 hours ago





$begingroup$
I am saying that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries doesn't tell you anything about $dot q$ on the boundaries. Or if you look at how this functions mechanically, it seems to me like the set of solutions for $q$ you get when you assume that $deltadot q=0$ on the boundaries is a superset of the solutions when you assume that it is not—boundary terms looking like $q~delta dot q$ could be safely neglected in the one case but not the other, for example. So the question to me is really just “how many new solutions are we adding here?” and I am not sure that I should be scared by the answer.
$endgroup$
– CR Drost
4 hours ago











MB2269 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















MB2269 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












MB2269 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











MB2269 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f495872%2fin-what-sense-are-the-equations-of-motion-conserved-by-symmetries%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Canceling a color specificationRandomly assigning color to Graphics3D objects?Default color for Filling in Mathematica 9Coloring specific elements of sets with a prime modified order in an array plotHow to pick a color differing significantly from the colors already in a given color list?Detection of the text colorColor numbers based on their valueCan color schemes for use with ColorData include opacity specification?My dynamic color schemes

Invision Community Contents History See also References External links Navigation menuProprietaryinvisioncommunity.comIPS Community ForumsIPS Community Forumsthis blog entry"License Changes, IP.Board 3.4, and the Future""Interview -- Matt Mecham of Ibforums""CEO Invision Power Board, Matt Mecham Is a Liar, Thief!"IPB License Explanation 1.3, 1.3.1, 2.0, and 2.1ArchivedSecurity Fixes, Updates And Enhancements For IPB 1.3.1Archived"New Demo Accounts - Invision Power Services"the original"New Default Skin"the original"Invision Power Board 3.0.0 and Applications Released"the original"Archived copy"the original"Perpetual licenses being done away with""Release Notes - Invision Power Services""Introducing: IPS Community Suite 4!"Invision Community Release Notes

199年 目錄 大件事 到箇年出世嗰人 到箇年死嗰人 節慶、風俗習慣 導覽選單