In a topological space if there exists a loop that cannot be contracted to a point does there exist a simple loop that cannot be contracted also?Are there pairs of highly connected finite CW-complexes with the same homotopy groups?Characterizing the rationalization of spaces.Proving that a space cannot be delooped.Does the holonomy map define a homomorphism $pi_k(X)topi_k-1(Hol(nabla))$?Which homology classes from loop space?When does the free loop space fibration split?Can we algorithmically contract loops in a simply connected space?Is ``factoring through a dendrite loop'' preserved under deletion?Does there exist a Haken manifold where all its incompressible surfaces are non-separating?Approximation of homotopy avoiding a point in $mathbbR^3$

In a topological space if there exists a loop that cannot be contracted to a point does there exist a simple loop that cannot be contracted also?


Are there pairs of highly connected finite CW-complexes with the same homotopy groups?Characterizing the rationalization of spaces.Proving that a space cannot be delooped.Does the holonomy map define a homomorphism $pi_k(X)topi_k-1(Hol(nabla))$?Which homology classes from loop space?When does the free loop space fibration split?Can we algorithmically contract loops in a simply connected space?Is ``factoring through a dendrite loop'' preserved under deletion?Does there exist a Haken manifold where all its incompressible surfaces are non-separating?Approximation of homotopy avoiding a point in $mathbbR^3$













8












$begingroup$


I'm interested in whether one only needs to consider simple loops when proving results about simply connected spaces.



If it is true that:



In a Topological Space, if there exists a loop that cannot be contracted to a point then there exists a simple loop that cannot also be contracted to a point.



then we can replace a loop by a simple loop in the definition of simply connected.



If this theorem is not true for all spaces, then perhaps it is true for Hausdorff spaces or metric spaces or a subset of $mathbbR^n$?



I have thought about the simplest non-trivial case which I believe would be a subset of $mathbbR^2$.



In this case I have a quite elementary way to approach this which is to see that you can contract a loop by shrinking its simple loops.



Take any loop, a continuous map, $f$, from $[0,1]$. Go round the loop from 0 until you find a self intersection at $x in (0,1]$ say, with the previous loop arc, $f([0,x])$ at a point $f(y)$ where $0<y<x$. Then $L=f([y,x])$ is a simple loop. Contract $L$ to a point and then apply the same process to $(x,1]$, iterating until we reach $f(1)$. At each stage we contract a simple loop. Eventually after a countably infinite number of contractions we have contracted the entire loop. We can construct a single homotopy out of these homotopies by making them maps on $[1/2^i,1/2^i+1]$ consecutively which allows one to fit them all into the unit interval.



So if you can't contract a given non-simple loop to a point but can contract any simple loop we have a contradiction which I think proves my claim.



I'm not sure whether this same argument applied to more general spaces or whether it is in fact correct at all. I realise that non-simple loops can be phenomenally complex with highly non-smooth, fractal structure but I can't see an obvious reason why you can't do what I propose above.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$


















    8












    $begingroup$


    I'm interested in whether one only needs to consider simple loops when proving results about simply connected spaces.



    If it is true that:



    In a Topological Space, if there exists a loop that cannot be contracted to a point then there exists a simple loop that cannot also be contracted to a point.



    then we can replace a loop by a simple loop in the definition of simply connected.



    If this theorem is not true for all spaces, then perhaps it is true for Hausdorff spaces or metric spaces or a subset of $mathbbR^n$?



    I have thought about the simplest non-trivial case which I believe would be a subset of $mathbbR^2$.



    In this case I have a quite elementary way to approach this which is to see that you can contract a loop by shrinking its simple loops.



    Take any loop, a continuous map, $f$, from $[0,1]$. Go round the loop from 0 until you find a self intersection at $x in (0,1]$ say, with the previous loop arc, $f([0,x])$ at a point $f(y)$ where $0<y<x$. Then $L=f([y,x])$ is a simple loop. Contract $L$ to a point and then apply the same process to $(x,1]$, iterating until we reach $f(1)$. At each stage we contract a simple loop. Eventually after a countably infinite number of contractions we have contracted the entire loop. We can construct a single homotopy out of these homotopies by making them maps on $[1/2^i,1/2^i+1]$ consecutively which allows one to fit them all into the unit interval.



    So if you can't contract a given non-simple loop to a point but can contract any simple loop we have a contradiction which I think proves my claim.



    I'm not sure whether this same argument applied to more general spaces or whether it is in fact correct at all. I realise that non-simple loops can be phenomenally complex with highly non-smooth, fractal structure but I can't see an obvious reason why you can't do what I propose above.










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$
















      8












      8








      8


      1



      $begingroup$


      I'm interested in whether one only needs to consider simple loops when proving results about simply connected spaces.



      If it is true that:



      In a Topological Space, if there exists a loop that cannot be contracted to a point then there exists a simple loop that cannot also be contracted to a point.



      then we can replace a loop by a simple loop in the definition of simply connected.



      If this theorem is not true for all spaces, then perhaps it is true for Hausdorff spaces or metric spaces or a subset of $mathbbR^n$?



      I have thought about the simplest non-trivial case which I believe would be a subset of $mathbbR^2$.



      In this case I have a quite elementary way to approach this which is to see that you can contract a loop by shrinking its simple loops.



      Take any loop, a continuous map, $f$, from $[0,1]$. Go round the loop from 0 until you find a self intersection at $x in (0,1]$ say, with the previous loop arc, $f([0,x])$ at a point $f(y)$ where $0<y<x$. Then $L=f([y,x])$ is a simple loop. Contract $L$ to a point and then apply the same process to $(x,1]$, iterating until we reach $f(1)$. At each stage we contract a simple loop. Eventually after a countably infinite number of contractions we have contracted the entire loop. We can construct a single homotopy out of these homotopies by making them maps on $[1/2^i,1/2^i+1]$ consecutively which allows one to fit them all into the unit interval.



      So if you can't contract a given non-simple loop to a point but can contract any simple loop we have a contradiction which I think proves my claim.



      I'm not sure whether this same argument applied to more general spaces or whether it is in fact correct at all. I realise that non-simple loops can be phenomenally complex with highly non-smooth, fractal structure but I can't see an obvious reason why you can't do what I propose above.










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      I'm interested in whether one only needs to consider simple loops when proving results about simply connected spaces.



      If it is true that:



      In a Topological Space, if there exists a loop that cannot be contracted to a point then there exists a simple loop that cannot also be contracted to a point.



      then we can replace a loop by a simple loop in the definition of simply connected.



      If this theorem is not true for all spaces, then perhaps it is true for Hausdorff spaces or metric spaces or a subset of $mathbbR^n$?



      I have thought about the simplest non-trivial case which I believe would be a subset of $mathbbR^2$.



      In this case I have a quite elementary way to approach this which is to see that you can contract a loop by shrinking its simple loops.



      Take any loop, a continuous map, $f$, from $[0,1]$. Go round the loop from 0 until you find a self intersection at $x in (0,1]$ say, with the previous loop arc, $f([0,x])$ at a point $f(y)$ where $0<y<x$. Then $L=f([y,x])$ is a simple loop. Contract $L$ to a point and then apply the same process to $(x,1]$, iterating until we reach $f(1)$. At each stage we contract a simple loop. Eventually after a countably infinite number of contractions we have contracted the entire loop. We can construct a single homotopy out of these homotopies by making them maps on $[1/2^i,1/2^i+1]$ consecutively which allows one to fit them all into the unit interval.



      So if you can't contract a given non-simple loop to a point but can contract any simple loop we have a contradiction which I think proves my claim.



      I'm not sure whether this same argument applied to more general spaces or whether it is in fact correct at all. I realise that non-simple loops can be phenomenally complex with highly non-smooth, fractal structure but I can't see an obvious reason why you can't do what I propose above.







      at.algebraic-topology gn.general-topology homotopy-theory






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 7 hours ago









      user64494

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      asked 8 hours ago









      Ivan MeirIvan Meir

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          2 Answers
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          active

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          17












          $begingroup$

          Here is an example of topological space $X$, embeddable as compact subspace of $mathbfR^3$, that is not simply connected, but in which every simple loop is homotopic to a constant loop.



          Namely, start from the Hawaiian earring $H$, with its singular point $w$. Let $C$ be the cone over $H$, namely $C=Htimes [0,1]/Htimes0$. Let $w$ be the image of $(w,1)$ in $C$. Finally, $X$ is the bouquet of two copies of $(C,w)$; this is a path-connected, locally path-connected, compact space, embeddable into $mathbfR^3$.



          enter image description here



          It is classical that $X$ is not simply connected: this is an example of failure of a too naive version of van Kampen's theorem.



          However every simple loop in $X$ is homotopic to a constant loop. Indeed, since the joining point $win X$ separates $Xsmallsetminusw$ into two components, such a loop cannot pass through $w$ and hence is included in one of these two components, hence one of the two copies of the cone $C$, in which it can clearly be homotoped to the sharp point of the cone.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$










          • 2




            $begingroup$
            Thanks Anton Petrunin for the picture!
            $endgroup$
            – YCor
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for this excellent example. I have a question which is that I can see why any simple loop must be on one cone and can then be contracted, but why can't non-simple loops that presumably must pass through w have their loops dropped down and passed over their respective cone points and then moved back up to w (I'm assuming w is the point where all the circles meet) and hence contract to a point.
            $endgroup$
            – Ivan Meir
            4 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Roughly, let $a_n$ be the $n$-th loop based at $w$ in the first copy of $H$ and $b_n$ the one in the second copy. Then the "infinite product" $prod_n a_nb_n$ is not homotopic to a constant loop.
            $endgroup$
            – YCor
            4 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            By n-th loop do you mean a loop around the n-th circle so $a_nb_n$ is a figure of eight passing through w and the product is a bunch of these attached at w. (Apologies if these are basic questions)
            $endgroup$
            – Ivan Meir
            4 hours ago


















          4












          $begingroup$

          Every finite simplicial complex is weakly homotopy equivalent to a finite space. Therefore there are finite spaces with nontrivial loops; and these are obviously not embedded.






          share|cite|improve this answer









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            17












            $begingroup$

            Here is an example of topological space $X$, embeddable as compact subspace of $mathbfR^3$, that is not simply connected, but in which every simple loop is homotopic to a constant loop.



            Namely, start from the Hawaiian earring $H$, with its singular point $w$. Let $C$ be the cone over $H$, namely $C=Htimes [0,1]/Htimes0$. Let $w$ be the image of $(w,1)$ in $C$. Finally, $X$ is the bouquet of two copies of $(C,w)$; this is a path-connected, locally path-connected, compact space, embeddable into $mathbfR^3$.



            enter image description here



            It is classical that $X$ is not simply connected: this is an example of failure of a too naive version of van Kampen's theorem.



            However every simple loop in $X$ is homotopic to a constant loop. Indeed, since the joining point $win X$ separates $Xsmallsetminusw$ into two components, such a loop cannot pass through $w$ and hence is included in one of these two components, hence one of the two copies of the cone $C$, in which it can clearly be homotoped to the sharp point of the cone.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$










            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Thanks Anton Petrunin for the picture!
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Thank you for this excellent example. I have a question which is that I can see why any simple loop must be on one cone and can then be contracted, but why can't non-simple loops that presumably must pass through w have their loops dropped down and passed over their respective cone points and then moved back up to w (I'm assuming w is the point where all the circles meet) and hence contract to a point.
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Roughly, let $a_n$ be the $n$-th loop based at $w$ in the first copy of $H$ and $b_n$ the one in the second copy. Then the "infinite product" $prod_n a_nb_n$ is not homotopic to a constant loop.
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              By n-th loop do you mean a loop around the n-th circle so $a_nb_n$ is a figure of eight passing through w and the product is a bunch of these attached at w. (Apologies if these are basic questions)
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago















            17












            $begingroup$

            Here is an example of topological space $X$, embeddable as compact subspace of $mathbfR^3$, that is not simply connected, but in which every simple loop is homotopic to a constant loop.



            Namely, start from the Hawaiian earring $H$, with its singular point $w$. Let $C$ be the cone over $H$, namely $C=Htimes [0,1]/Htimes0$. Let $w$ be the image of $(w,1)$ in $C$. Finally, $X$ is the bouquet of two copies of $(C,w)$; this is a path-connected, locally path-connected, compact space, embeddable into $mathbfR^3$.



            enter image description here



            It is classical that $X$ is not simply connected: this is an example of failure of a too naive version of van Kampen's theorem.



            However every simple loop in $X$ is homotopic to a constant loop. Indeed, since the joining point $win X$ separates $Xsmallsetminusw$ into two components, such a loop cannot pass through $w$ and hence is included in one of these two components, hence one of the two copies of the cone $C$, in which it can clearly be homotoped to the sharp point of the cone.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$










            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Thanks Anton Petrunin for the picture!
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Thank you for this excellent example. I have a question which is that I can see why any simple loop must be on one cone and can then be contracted, but why can't non-simple loops that presumably must pass through w have their loops dropped down and passed over their respective cone points and then moved back up to w (I'm assuming w is the point where all the circles meet) and hence contract to a point.
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Roughly, let $a_n$ be the $n$-th loop based at $w$ in the first copy of $H$ and $b_n$ the one in the second copy. Then the "infinite product" $prod_n a_nb_n$ is not homotopic to a constant loop.
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              By n-th loop do you mean a loop around the n-th circle so $a_nb_n$ is a figure of eight passing through w and the product is a bunch of these attached at w. (Apologies if these are basic questions)
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago













            17












            17








            17





            $begingroup$

            Here is an example of topological space $X$, embeddable as compact subspace of $mathbfR^3$, that is not simply connected, but in which every simple loop is homotopic to a constant loop.



            Namely, start from the Hawaiian earring $H$, with its singular point $w$. Let $C$ be the cone over $H$, namely $C=Htimes [0,1]/Htimes0$. Let $w$ be the image of $(w,1)$ in $C$. Finally, $X$ is the bouquet of two copies of $(C,w)$; this is a path-connected, locally path-connected, compact space, embeddable into $mathbfR^3$.



            enter image description here



            It is classical that $X$ is not simply connected: this is an example of failure of a too naive version of van Kampen's theorem.



            However every simple loop in $X$ is homotopic to a constant loop. Indeed, since the joining point $win X$ separates $Xsmallsetminusw$ into two components, such a loop cannot pass through $w$ and hence is included in one of these two components, hence one of the two copies of the cone $C$, in which it can clearly be homotoped to the sharp point of the cone.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Here is an example of topological space $X$, embeddable as compact subspace of $mathbfR^3$, that is not simply connected, but in which every simple loop is homotopic to a constant loop.



            Namely, start from the Hawaiian earring $H$, with its singular point $w$. Let $C$ be the cone over $H$, namely $C=Htimes [0,1]/Htimes0$. Let $w$ be the image of $(w,1)$ in $C$. Finally, $X$ is the bouquet of two copies of $(C,w)$; this is a path-connected, locally path-connected, compact space, embeddable into $mathbfR^3$.



            enter image description here



            It is classical that $X$ is not simply connected: this is an example of failure of a too naive version of van Kampen's theorem.



            However every simple loop in $X$ is homotopic to a constant loop. Indeed, since the joining point $win X$ separates $Xsmallsetminusw$ into two components, such a loop cannot pass through $w$ and hence is included in one of these two components, hence one of the two copies of the cone $C$, in which it can clearly be homotoped to the sharp point of the cone.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited 6 hours ago









            Anton Petrunin

            27.4k5 gold badges84 silver badges203 bronze badges




            27.4k5 gold badges84 silver badges203 bronze badges










            answered 6 hours ago









            YCorYCor

            30.6k4 gold badges91 silver badges147 bronze badges




            30.6k4 gold badges91 silver badges147 bronze badges










            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Thanks Anton Petrunin for the picture!
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Thank you for this excellent example. I have a question which is that I can see why any simple loop must be on one cone and can then be contracted, but why can't non-simple loops that presumably must pass through w have their loops dropped down and passed over their respective cone points and then moved back up to w (I'm assuming w is the point where all the circles meet) and hence contract to a point.
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Roughly, let $a_n$ be the $n$-th loop based at $w$ in the first copy of $H$ and $b_n$ the one in the second copy. Then the "infinite product" $prod_n a_nb_n$ is not homotopic to a constant loop.
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              By n-th loop do you mean a loop around the n-th circle so $a_nb_n$ is a figure of eight passing through w and the product is a bunch of these attached at w. (Apologies if these are basic questions)
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago












            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Thanks Anton Petrunin for the picture!
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Thank you for this excellent example. I have a question which is that I can see why any simple loop must be on one cone and can then be contracted, but why can't non-simple loops that presumably must pass through w have their loops dropped down and passed over their respective cone points and then moved back up to w (I'm assuming w is the point where all the circles meet) and hence contract to a point.
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Roughly, let $a_n$ be the $n$-th loop based at $w$ in the first copy of $H$ and $b_n$ the one in the second copy. Then the "infinite product" $prod_n a_nb_n$ is not homotopic to a constant loop.
              $endgroup$
              – YCor
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              By n-th loop do you mean a loop around the n-th circle so $a_nb_n$ is a figure of eight passing through w and the product is a bunch of these attached at w. (Apologies if these are basic questions)
              $endgroup$
              – Ivan Meir
              4 hours ago







            2




            2




            $begingroup$
            Thanks Anton Petrunin for the picture!
            $endgroup$
            – YCor
            5 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            Thanks Anton Petrunin for the picture!
            $endgroup$
            – YCor
            5 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            Thank you for this excellent example. I have a question which is that I can see why any simple loop must be on one cone and can then be contracted, but why can't non-simple loops that presumably must pass through w have their loops dropped down and passed over their respective cone points and then moved back up to w (I'm assuming w is the point where all the circles meet) and hence contract to a point.
            $endgroup$
            – Ivan Meir
            4 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            Thank you for this excellent example. I have a question which is that I can see why any simple loop must be on one cone and can then be contracted, but why can't non-simple loops that presumably must pass through w have their loops dropped down and passed over their respective cone points and then moved back up to w (I'm assuming w is the point where all the circles meet) and hence contract to a point.
            $endgroup$
            – Ivan Meir
            4 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            Roughly, let $a_n$ be the $n$-th loop based at $w$ in the first copy of $H$ and $b_n$ the one in the second copy. Then the "infinite product" $prod_n a_nb_n$ is not homotopic to a constant loop.
            $endgroup$
            – YCor
            4 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            Roughly, let $a_n$ be the $n$-th loop based at $w$ in the first copy of $H$ and $b_n$ the one in the second copy. Then the "infinite product" $prod_n a_nb_n$ is not homotopic to a constant loop.
            $endgroup$
            – YCor
            4 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            By n-th loop do you mean a loop around the n-th circle so $a_nb_n$ is a figure of eight passing through w and the product is a bunch of these attached at w. (Apologies if these are basic questions)
            $endgroup$
            – Ivan Meir
            4 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            By n-th loop do you mean a loop around the n-th circle so $a_nb_n$ is a figure of eight passing through w and the product is a bunch of these attached at w. (Apologies if these are basic questions)
            $endgroup$
            – Ivan Meir
            4 hours ago











            4












            $begingroup$

            Every finite simplicial complex is weakly homotopy equivalent to a finite space. Therefore there are finite spaces with nontrivial loops; and these are obviously not embedded.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



















              4












              $begingroup$

              Every finite simplicial complex is weakly homotopy equivalent to a finite space. Therefore there are finite spaces with nontrivial loops; and these are obviously not embedded.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                4












                4








                4





                $begingroup$

                Every finite simplicial complex is weakly homotopy equivalent to a finite space. Therefore there are finite spaces with nontrivial loops; and these are obviously not embedded.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                Every finite simplicial complex is weakly homotopy equivalent to a finite space. Therefore there are finite spaces with nontrivial loops; and these are obviously not embedded.







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered 1 hour ago









                Jeff StromJeff Strom

                7,5972 gold badges30 silver badges60 bronze badges




                7,5972 gold badges30 silver badges60 bronze badges






























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