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Ribbon Cable Cross Talk - Is there a fix after the fact?


Is there a free cross-platform tool for pure digital gate-level schematic design and simulation?Attenuation curve of the twisted pair cableWhat's the simplest way to store 1 bit after a device has been turned off?It is better to fix x's in the simulation or in the design?How to view the optimized combinational function after HDL synthesis?Is there any 'switching IC' to replace 'transistor switch' for switching the 12 volts LED array?Distance between SPI traces to prevent cross talkLight bulb burns out — why there is an arc in the switch?Why does a 2-input OR gate cause the input to stay on when there is feedback?Is there something wrong with the circuit below?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








2












$begingroup$


I'm involved in a project where the customer defined pins in a ribbon cable, without considering possible cross-talk issues. The signals are 1 MHz data signals with no ground wire separating them. I've never had experience with cross-talk and was amazed at the size of the induced glitches (0.5 to 0.65 volts). The receiving side was using 74HCxx line drivers (CMOS switching levels) which resulted in pure garbage on the data stream. The customer is switching to 74HCT drivers in an attempt to move the input "high" switching level below the glitch level, but I have my concerns.



Is the anything that can be done, besides switching to HCT parts or just properly redesigning the board to possibly salvage what we have?



Any comments welcome.



Thanks.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    What are the rise times required and cable length? HCT offers worse noise margin with CMOS drivers but better for TTL drivers, unless the data is normally high.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Your are a little sloppy with your terms driver/receiver. CMOS drivers with CMOS receivers have a good noise margin. The drivers will drive to GND + 0.5V and Vcc - 0.5V with a load and near the rails without a load. The guaranteed receiver thresholds are usually 30% and 70% of Vcc, and typically near 50%. You should have >= 1V of margin. HCT receivers have a logic low input threshold of 0.8V, the margin is only 0.3V. Switching to HCT will make it worse for logic 0.
    $endgroup$
    – Mattman944
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    how wide are the glitches?
    $endgroup$
    – Sascha
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What is the rise/falltime of the signals? If you can add series resistance at the source to slow the edge times, that's likely to be your best fix.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago

















2












$begingroup$


I'm involved in a project where the customer defined pins in a ribbon cable, without considering possible cross-talk issues. The signals are 1 MHz data signals with no ground wire separating them. I've never had experience with cross-talk and was amazed at the size of the induced glitches (0.5 to 0.65 volts). The receiving side was using 74HCxx line drivers (CMOS switching levels) which resulted in pure garbage on the data stream. The customer is switching to 74HCT drivers in an attempt to move the input "high" switching level below the glitch level, but I have my concerns.



Is the anything that can be done, besides switching to HCT parts or just properly redesigning the board to possibly salvage what we have?



Any comments welcome.



Thanks.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    What are the rise times required and cable length? HCT offers worse noise margin with CMOS drivers but better for TTL drivers, unless the data is normally high.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Your are a little sloppy with your terms driver/receiver. CMOS drivers with CMOS receivers have a good noise margin. The drivers will drive to GND + 0.5V and Vcc - 0.5V with a load and near the rails without a load. The guaranteed receiver thresholds are usually 30% and 70% of Vcc, and typically near 50%. You should have >= 1V of margin. HCT receivers have a logic low input threshold of 0.8V, the margin is only 0.3V. Switching to HCT will make it worse for logic 0.
    $endgroup$
    – Mattman944
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    how wide are the glitches?
    $endgroup$
    – Sascha
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What is the rise/falltime of the signals? If you can add series resistance at the source to slow the edge times, that's likely to be your best fix.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago













2












2








2





$begingroup$


I'm involved in a project where the customer defined pins in a ribbon cable, without considering possible cross-talk issues. The signals are 1 MHz data signals with no ground wire separating them. I've never had experience with cross-talk and was amazed at the size of the induced glitches (0.5 to 0.65 volts). The receiving side was using 74HCxx line drivers (CMOS switching levels) which resulted in pure garbage on the data stream. The customer is switching to 74HCT drivers in an attempt to move the input "high" switching level below the glitch level, but I have my concerns.



Is the anything that can be done, besides switching to HCT parts or just properly redesigning the board to possibly salvage what we have?



Any comments welcome.



Thanks.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I'm involved in a project where the customer defined pins in a ribbon cable, without considering possible cross-talk issues. The signals are 1 MHz data signals with no ground wire separating them. I've never had experience with cross-talk and was amazed at the size of the induced glitches (0.5 to 0.65 volts). The receiving side was using 74HCxx line drivers (CMOS switching levels) which resulted in pure garbage on the data stream. The customer is switching to 74HCT drivers in an attempt to move the input "high" switching level below the glitch level, but I have my concerns.



Is the anything that can be done, besides switching to HCT parts or just properly redesigning the board to possibly salvage what we have?



Any comments welcome.



Thanks.







digital-logic switching crosstalk






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 41 mins ago









SamGibson

12k41840




12k41840










asked 3 hours ago









JHinkleJHinkle

665




665











  • $begingroup$
    What are the rise times required and cable length? HCT offers worse noise margin with CMOS drivers but better for TTL drivers, unless the data is normally high.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Your are a little sloppy with your terms driver/receiver. CMOS drivers with CMOS receivers have a good noise margin. The drivers will drive to GND + 0.5V and Vcc - 0.5V with a load and near the rails without a load. The guaranteed receiver thresholds are usually 30% and 70% of Vcc, and typically near 50%. You should have >= 1V of margin. HCT receivers have a logic low input threshold of 0.8V, the margin is only 0.3V. Switching to HCT will make it worse for logic 0.
    $endgroup$
    – Mattman944
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    how wide are the glitches?
    $endgroup$
    – Sascha
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What is the rise/falltime of the signals? If you can add series resistance at the source to slow the edge times, that's likely to be your best fix.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    What are the rise times required and cable length? HCT offers worse noise margin with CMOS drivers but better for TTL drivers, unless the data is normally high.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Your are a little sloppy with your terms driver/receiver. CMOS drivers with CMOS receivers have a good noise margin. The drivers will drive to GND + 0.5V and Vcc - 0.5V with a load and near the rails without a load. The guaranteed receiver thresholds are usually 30% and 70% of Vcc, and typically near 50%. You should have >= 1V of margin. HCT receivers have a logic low input threshold of 0.8V, the margin is only 0.3V. Switching to HCT will make it worse for logic 0.
    $endgroup$
    – Mattman944
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    how wide are the glitches?
    $endgroup$
    – Sascha
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What is the rise/falltime of the signals? If you can add series resistance at the source to slow the edge times, that's likely to be your best fix.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago















$begingroup$
What are the rise times required and cable length? HCT offers worse noise margin with CMOS drivers but better for TTL drivers, unless the data is normally high.
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
What are the rise times required and cable length? HCT offers worse noise margin with CMOS drivers but better for TTL drivers, unless the data is normally high.
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
Your are a little sloppy with your terms driver/receiver. CMOS drivers with CMOS receivers have a good noise margin. The drivers will drive to GND + 0.5V and Vcc - 0.5V with a load and near the rails without a load. The guaranteed receiver thresholds are usually 30% and 70% of Vcc, and typically near 50%. You should have >= 1V of margin. HCT receivers have a logic low input threshold of 0.8V, the margin is only 0.3V. Switching to HCT will make it worse for logic 0.
$endgroup$
– Mattman944
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Your are a little sloppy with your terms driver/receiver. CMOS drivers with CMOS receivers have a good noise margin. The drivers will drive to GND + 0.5V and Vcc - 0.5V with a load and near the rails without a load. The guaranteed receiver thresholds are usually 30% and 70% of Vcc, and typically near 50%. You should have >= 1V of margin. HCT receivers have a logic low input threshold of 0.8V, the margin is only 0.3V. Switching to HCT will make it worse for logic 0.
$endgroup$
– Mattman944
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
how wide are the glitches?
$endgroup$
– Sascha
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
how wide are the glitches?
$endgroup$
– Sascha
2 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
What is the rise/falltime of the signals? If you can add series resistance at the source to slow the edge times, that's likely to be your best fix.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
What is the rise/falltime of the signals? If you can add series resistance at the source to slow the edge times, that's likely to be your best fix.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
2 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

You can leave the board design as-is, but make a short adapter on both ends of the cable, and make the actual cable either as a non-ribbon cable (micro coax, this will be the best), or use proper grounding between signal wires. Essentially you need to make a different cable to fit the IDC plugs (or whatever they selected as board-to-cable connector). Something like this:



enter image description here






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    Can you change the ribbon cable, or insert an adapter to a higher pin-count cable? Consider what IDE/ATA did to increase bandwidth -- it was switched from a 40-wire cable to an 80-wire cable, with every other wire inside the cable tied to ground within the connector. A similar solution could apply here.



    Alternatively, can you reduce the slew rate? At 1 MHz, your problem is likely to be less about the frequency of the signals themselves and more about their fast edges. A filter network on the transmit side may help.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      After the fact, you have a few choices:



      1. Use Schmitt trigger input receivers

      2. use shielded foil ribbon cable

      3. terminate with 470 pF as a starting value

      4. terminate with cable impedance 110-120 Ohms to ground

      5. terminate with driver impedance ~ 50 Ohms to Vcc/2 ore equiv pull/down

      Increasing the source resistance reduces risetime but won't reduce crosstalk , because the impedance ratio of crosstalk capacitance Xc/Rs rises as slew rate of current reduces.



      edit



      Proof of ideas using 1m ribbon cable estimate ESL and C



      Here using 5 different signals near 1MHz square wave but different to get alias crosstalk with different source and load impedances. Normally I recall, ribbon cables are 120 Ohm single ended which translates into a lump inductance and capacitance per meter but depends on AWG and dielectric spacing.



      enter image description here






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$













        Your Answer






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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        3












        $begingroup$

        You can leave the board design as-is, but make a short adapter on both ends of the cable, and make the actual cable either as a non-ribbon cable (micro coax, this will be the best), or use proper grounding between signal wires. Essentially you need to make a different cable to fit the IDC plugs (or whatever they selected as board-to-cable connector). Something like this:



        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$

















          3












          $begingroup$

          You can leave the board design as-is, but make a short adapter on both ends of the cable, and make the actual cable either as a non-ribbon cable (micro coax, this will be the best), or use proper grounding between signal wires. Essentially you need to make a different cable to fit the IDC plugs (or whatever they selected as board-to-cable connector). Something like this:



          enter image description here






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$















            3












            3








            3





            $begingroup$

            You can leave the board design as-is, but make a short adapter on both ends of the cable, and make the actual cable either as a non-ribbon cable (micro coax, this will be the best), or use proper grounding between signal wires. Essentially you need to make a different cable to fit the IDC plugs (or whatever they selected as board-to-cable connector). Something like this:



            enter image description here






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            You can leave the board design as-is, but make a short adapter on both ends of the cable, and make the actual cable either as a non-ribbon cable (micro coax, this will be the best), or use proper grounding between signal wires. Essentially you need to make a different cable to fit the IDC plugs (or whatever they selected as board-to-cable connector). Something like this:



            enter image description here







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 1 hour ago









            Ale..chenskiAle..chenski

            30.2k11967




            30.2k11967























                2












                $begingroup$

                Can you change the ribbon cable, or insert an adapter to a higher pin-count cable? Consider what IDE/ATA did to increase bandwidth -- it was switched from a 40-wire cable to an 80-wire cable, with every other wire inside the cable tied to ground within the connector. A similar solution could apply here.



                Alternatively, can you reduce the slew rate? At 1 MHz, your problem is likely to be less about the frequency of the signals themselves and more about their fast edges. A filter network on the transmit side may help.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$

















                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  Can you change the ribbon cable, or insert an adapter to a higher pin-count cable? Consider what IDE/ATA did to increase bandwidth -- it was switched from a 40-wire cable to an 80-wire cable, with every other wire inside the cable tied to ground within the connector. A similar solution could apply here.



                  Alternatively, can you reduce the slew rate? At 1 MHz, your problem is likely to be less about the frequency of the signals themselves and more about their fast edges. A filter network on the transmit side may help.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$















                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    Can you change the ribbon cable, or insert an adapter to a higher pin-count cable? Consider what IDE/ATA did to increase bandwidth -- it was switched from a 40-wire cable to an 80-wire cable, with every other wire inside the cable tied to ground within the connector. A similar solution could apply here.



                    Alternatively, can you reduce the slew rate? At 1 MHz, your problem is likely to be less about the frequency of the signals themselves and more about their fast edges. A filter network on the transmit side may help.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    Can you change the ribbon cable, or insert an adapter to a higher pin-count cable? Consider what IDE/ATA did to increase bandwidth -- it was switched from a 40-wire cable to an 80-wire cable, with every other wire inside the cable tied to ground within the connector. A similar solution could apply here.



                    Alternatively, can you reduce the slew rate? At 1 MHz, your problem is likely to be less about the frequency of the signals themselves and more about their fast edges. A filter network on the transmit side may help.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 2 hours ago









                    duskwuffduskwuff

                    18.4k32853




                    18.4k32853





















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        After the fact, you have a few choices:



                        1. Use Schmitt trigger input receivers

                        2. use shielded foil ribbon cable

                        3. terminate with 470 pF as a starting value

                        4. terminate with cable impedance 110-120 Ohms to ground

                        5. terminate with driver impedance ~ 50 Ohms to Vcc/2 ore equiv pull/down

                        Increasing the source resistance reduces risetime but won't reduce crosstalk , because the impedance ratio of crosstalk capacitance Xc/Rs rises as slew rate of current reduces.



                        edit



                        Proof of ideas using 1m ribbon cable estimate ESL and C



                        Here using 5 different signals near 1MHz square wave but different to get alias crosstalk with different source and load impedances. Normally I recall, ribbon cables are 120 Ohm single ended which translates into a lump inductance and capacitance per meter but depends on AWG and dielectric spacing.



                        enter image description here






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$

















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          After the fact, you have a few choices:



                          1. Use Schmitt trigger input receivers

                          2. use shielded foil ribbon cable

                          3. terminate with 470 pF as a starting value

                          4. terminate with cable impedance 110-120 Ohms to ground

                          5. terminate with driver impedance ~ 50 Ohms to Vcc/2 ore equiv pull/down

                          Increasing the source resistance reduces risetime but won't reduce crosstalk , because the impedance ratio of crosstalk capacitance Xc/Rs rises as slew rate of current reduces.



                          edit



                          Proof of ideas using 1m ribbon cable estimate ESL and C



                          Here using 5 different signals near 1MHz square wave but different to get alias crosstalk with different source and load impedances. Normally I recall, ribbon cables are 120 Ohm single ended which translates into a lump inductance and capacitance per meter but depends on AWG and dielectric spacing.



                          enter image description here






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            After the fact, you have a few choices:



                            1. Use Schmitt trigger input receivers

                            2. use shielded foil ribbon cable

                            3. terminate with 470 pF as a starting value

                            4. terminate with cable impedance 110-120 Ohms to ground

                            5. terminate with driver impedance ~ 50 Ohms to Vcc/2 ore equiv pull/down

                            Increasing the source resistance reduces risetime but won't reduce crosstalk , because the impedance ratio of crosstalk capacitance Xc/Rs rises as slew rate of current reduces.



                            edit



                            Proof of ideas using 1m ribbon cable estimate ESL and C



                            Here using 5 different signals near 1MHz square wave but different to get alias crosstalk with different source and load impedances. Normally I recall, ribbon cables are 120 Ohm single ended which translates into a lump inductance and capacitance per meter but depends on AWG and dielectric spacing.



                            enter image description here






                            share|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            After the fact, you have a few choices:



                            1. Use Schmitt trigger input receivers

                            2. use shielded foil ribbon cable

                            3. terminate with 470 pF as a starting value

                            4. terminate with cable impedance 110-120 Ohms to ground

                            5. terminate with driver impedance ~ 50 Ohms to Vcc/2 ore equiv pull/down

                            Increasing the source resistance reduces risetime but won't reduce crosstalk , because the impedance ratio of crosstalk capacitance Xc/Rs rises as slew rate of current reduces.



                            edit



                            Proof of ideas using 1m ribbon cable estimate ESL and C



                            Here using 5 different signals near 1MHz square wave but different to get alias crosstalk with different source and load impedances. Normally I recall, ribbon cables are 120 Ohm single ended which translates into a lump inductance and capacitance per meter but depends on AWG and dielectric spacing.



                            enter image description here







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 2 hours ago

























                            answered 2 hours ago









                            Sunnyskyguy EE75Sunnyskyguy EE75

                            74k228104




                            74k228104



























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