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Is this story about US tax office reasonable?
How to prove I live in a specific address?In practice, how bad can this get?Do DBAs file separate taxes than the proprietor?When can “exact change” policies be enforced?Taking control of an adult's healthcareIs the use of a community currency instead of the official legal tender a tax evasion?Can language in a settlement agreement have affect on taxes for a personal injury lawsuit?Should I be taxed on electricity in Florida as a private resident?How to contest compensation as an independent contractorHow to report Airbnb income in tax return?
Ages ago I read a nice story that sounds quite reasonable, but might be complete nonsense. Here it goes:
A private detective in the USA has lots of lawyers as customers. And they are notoriously bad at paying their bills. As a result, the detective owes money to the IRS. He talks to the IRS on the phone, and explains that he would love to pay his tax bill, but can't because so many of his customers are not paying their bills.
The tax officer says "I'll come to your office on Monday morning. Please have your 20 largest unpaid bills ready".
Monday morning, the tax officer arrives, takes the first unpaid bill to a lawyer, and calls: "Hi, this is John Smith. I'm informed that you owe private detective X an amount of $Y. Is that true?" Then the story explains (whether true or false I don't know) that in the USA it is quite possible to delay a payment legally, but it is illegal to falsely claim that you don't owe a debt. So when the lawyers office confirms, he says "I'm John Smith from the IRS, and I would ask you to pay the amount you owe to the IRS. Today. " And two hours later, the detectives tax bill is paid.
Question 1: Is it indeed illegal to lie about owing money?
Question 2: Would a company owing someone money that is past due payment be obliged to send the money to the IRS to pay the person's tax bill, assuming that the tax officer and the person owed state that this should happen?
Or is this story not reasonably possible?
united-states tax-law debt
add a comment |
Ages ago I read a nice story that sounds quite reasonable, but might be complete nonsense. Here it goes:
A private detective in the USA has lots of lawyers as customers. And they are notoriously bad at paying their bills. As a result, the detective owes money to the IRS. He talks to the IRS on the phone, and explains that he would love to pay his tax bill, but can't because so many of his customers are not paying their bills.
The tax officer says "I'll come to your office on Monday morning. Please have your 20 largest unpaid bills ready".
Monday morning, the tax officer arrives, takes the first unpaid bill to a lawyer, and calls: "Hi, this is John Smith. I'm informed that you owe private detective X an amount of $Y. Is that true?" Then the story explains (whether true or false I don't know) that in the USA it is quite possible to delay a payment legally, but it is illegal to falsely claim that you don't owe a debt. So when the lawyers office confirms, he says "I'm John Smith from the IRS, and I would ask you to pay the amount you owe to the IRS. Today. " And two hours later, the detectives tax bill is paid.
Question 1: Is it indeed illegal to lie about owing money?
Question 2: Would a company owing someone money that is past due payment be obliged to send the money to the IRS to pay the person's tax bill, assuming that the tax officer and the person owed state that this should happen?
Or is this story not reasonably possible?
united-states tax-law debt
2
Seems like a bogus story. A private detective will likely use the "cash method" for accounting and so there is no tax due until he actually gets the money. And the likelihood of the IRS actually intervening is close to zero.
– Hilmar
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Ages ago I read a nice story that sounds quite reasonable, but might be complete nonsense. Here it goes:
A private detective in the USA has lots of lawyers as customers. And they are notoriously bad at paying their bills. As a result, the detective owes money to the IRS. He talks to the IRS on the phone, and explains that he would love to pay his tax bill, but can't because so many of his customers are not paying their bills.
The tax officer says "I'll come to your office on Monday morning. Please have your 20 largest unpaid bills ready".
Monday morning, the tax officer arrives, takes the first unpaid bill to a lawyer, and calls: "Hi, this is John Smith. I'm informed that you owe private detective X an amount of $Y. Is that true?" Then the story explains (whether true or false I don't know) that in the USA it is quite possible to delay a payment legally, but it is illegal to falsely claim that you don't owe a debt. So when the lawyers office confirms, he says "I'm John Smith from the IRS, and I would ask you to pay the amount you owe to the IRS. Today. " And two hours later, the detectives tax bill is paid.
Question 1: Is it indeed illegal to lie about owing money?
Question 2: Would a company owing someone money that is past due payment be obliged to send the money to the IRS to pay the person's tax bill, assuming that the tax officer and the person owed state that this should happen?
Or is this story not reasonably possible?
united-states tax-law debt
Ages ago I read a nice story that sounds quite reasonable, but might be complete nonsense. Here it goes:
A private detective in the USA has lots of lawyers as customers. And they are notoriously bad at paying their bills. As a result, the detective owes money to the IRS. He talks to the IRS on the phone, and explains that he would love to pay his tax bill, but can't because so many of his customers are not paying their bills.
The tax officer says "I'll come to your office on Monday morning. Please have your 20 largest unpaid bills ready".
Monday morning, the tax officer arrives, takes the first unpaid bill to a lawyer, and calls: "Hi, this is John Smith. I'm informed that you owe private detective X an amount of $Y. Is that true?" Then the story explains (whether true or false I don't know) that in the USA it is quite possible to delay a payment legally, but it is illegal to falsely claim that you don't owe a debt. So when the lawyers office confirms, he says "I'm John Smith from the IRS, and I would ask you to pay the amount you owe to the IRS. Today. " And two hours later, the detectives tax bill is paid.
Question 1: Is it indeed illegal to lie about owing money?
Question 2: Would a company owing someone money that is past due payment be obliged to send the money to the IRS to pay the person's tax bill, assuming that the tax officer and the person owed state that this should happen?
Or is this story not reasonably possible?
united-states tax-law debt
united-states tax-law debt
asked 8 hours ago
gnasher729gnasher729
12.3k1330
12.3k1330
2
Seems like a bogus story. A private detective will likely use the "cash method" for accounting and so there is no tax due until he actually gets the money. And the likelihood of the IRS actually intervening is close to zero.
– Hilmar
8 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Seems like a bogus story. A private detective will likely use the "cash method" for accounting and so there is no tax due until he actually gets the money. And the likelihood of the IRS actually intervening is close to zero.
– Hilmar
8 hours ago
2
2
Seems like a bogus story. A private detective will likely use the "cash method" for accounting and so there is no tax due until he actually gets the money. And the likelihood of the IRS actually intervening is close to zero.
– Hilmar
8 hours ago
Seems like a bogus story. A private detective will likely use the "cash method" for accounting and so there is no tax due until he actually gets the money. And the likelihood of the IRS actually intervening is close to zero.
– Hilmar
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
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There is no general law making it illegal to lie about debts, or anything else. It is illegal to lie to a law enforcement officer in the course of an investigation. But it is in no way unlawful to decline to answer, unless a proper court order has been obtained, or other lawful means of compelling an answer. I would expect any law office to respond to such a question with something like "Am I/we being investigated? If so, send the appropriate notice and our lawyer will consider what we should tell you. If not, tell us what information you want, and we will consider and provide a written response in due course."
If a taxpayer has been found to be delinquent in paying taxes, in some cases a court order may be obtained seizing assets, including unpaid debts. But no IRS agent can make such a claim on the spot, and indeed for a client to make such a payment without such a court order (or the creditor's written consent) would itself be unlawful and would subject the lawyer to a suit by the PI.
When the lawyer pays s service provider, a 1099 must be filed with the IRS. If the PI is a corporation, a different form is used, but a record of payment is still required. As failure to timely file such a form is a violation of the tax code, an accusation of paying without filing would permit the lawyer to decline to answer under the Fifth amendment. If the lawyer did pay and did file a 1099 or other documentation, the IRS would know what had been payed, and would not need to confront the PI.
Also, as the comment by Hilmar points out, a PI would be likely to use the cash accounting method, and so would own no tax on work performed but unpaid (as yet). So unless the IRS agent thinks the PI was paid "off-the books" and is intentionally failing to report the payment, there would be no point to such a question. And if that were he case, the lawyer would be very likely to decline to answer.
I find the story quite implausible.
It's a shame. I liked the story :-) The point about cash accounting (it's only income and you only owe tax if/when the bill is paid) is something I completely missed.
– gnasher729
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 Yes, but to me the point more telling is that an IRS agent just doesn't have the power to say "do this" and have people, esp lawyers, comply rather than say "where's your warrant / court order"
– David Siegel
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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There is no general law making it illegal to lie about debts, or anything else. It is illegal to lie to a law enforcement officer in the course of an investigation. But it is in no way unlawful to decline to answer, unless a proper court order has been obtained, or other lawful means of compelling an answer. I would expect any law office to respond to such a question with something like "Am I/we being investigated? If so, send the appropriate notice and our lawyer will consider what we should tell you. If not, tell us what information you want, and we will consider and provide a written response in due course."
If a taxpayer has been found to be delinquent in paying taxes, in some cases a court order may be obtained seizing assets, including unpaid debts. But no IRS agent can make such a claim on the spot, and indeed for a client to make such a payment without such a court order (or the creditor's written consent) would itself be unlawful and would subject the lawyer to a suit by the PI.
When the lawyer pays s service provider, a 1099 must be filed with the IRS. If the PI is a corporation, a different form is used, but a record of payment is still required. As failure to timely file such a form is a violation of the tax code, an accusation of paying without filing would permit the lawyer to decline to answer under the Fifth amendment. If the lawyer did pay and did file a 1099 or other documentation, the IRS would know what had been payed, and would not need to confront the PI.
Also, as the comment by Hilmar points out, a PI would be likely to use the cash accounting method, and so would own no tax on work performed but unpaid (as yet). So unless the IRS agent thinks the PI was paid "off-the books" and is intentionally failing to report the payment, there would be no point to such a question. And if that were he case, the lawyer would be very likely to decline to answer.
I find the story quite implausible.
It's a shame. I liked the story :-) The point about cash accounting (it's only income and you only owe tax if/when the bill is paid) is something I completely missed.
– gnasher729
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 Yes, but to me the point more telling is that an IRS agent just doesn't have the power to say "do this" and have people, esp lawyers, comply rather than say "where's your warrant / court order"
– David Siegel
6 hours ago
add a comment |
There is no general law making it illegal to lie about debts, or anything else. It is illegal to lie to a law enforcement officer in the course of an investigation. But it is in no way unlawful to decline to answer, unless a proper court order has been obtained, or other lawful means of compelling an answer. I would expect any law office to respond to such a question with something like "Am I/we being investigated? If so, send the appropriate notice and our lawyer will consider what we should tell you. If not, tell us what information you want, and we will consider and provide a written response in due course."
If a taxpayer has been found to be delinquent in paying taxes, in some cases a court order may be obtained seizing assets, including unpaid debts. But no IRS agent can make such a claim on the spot, and indeed for a client to make such a payment without such a court order (or the creditor's written consent) would itself be unlawful and would subject the lawyer to a suit by the PI.
When the lawyer pays s service provider, a 1099 must be filed with the IRS. If the PI is a corporation, a different form is used, but a record of payment is still required. As failure to timely file such a form is a violation of the tax code, an accusation of paying without filing would permit the lawyer to decline to answer under the Fifth amendment. If the lawyer did pay and did file a 1099 or other documentation, the IRS would know what had been payed, and would not need to confront the PI.
Also, as the comment by Hilmar points out, a PI would be likely to use the cash accounting method, and so would own no tax on work performed but unpaid (as yet). So unless the IRS agent thinks the PI was paid "off-the books" and is intentionally failing to report the payment, there would be no point to such a question. And if that were he case, the lawyer would be very likely to decline to answer.
I find the story quite implausible.
It's a shame. I liked the story :-) The point about cash accounting (it's only income and you only owe tax if/when the bill is paid) is something I completely missed.
– gnasher729
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 Yes, but to me the point more telling is that an IRS agent just doesn't have the power to say "do this" and have people, esp lawyers, comply rather than say "where's your warrant / court order"
– David Siegel
6 hours ago
add a comment |
There is no general law making it illegal to lie about debts, or anything else. It is illegal to lie to a law enforcement officer in the course of an investigation. But it is in no way unlawful to decline to answer, unless a proper court order has been obtained, or other lawful means of compelling an answer. I would expect any law office to respond to such a question with something like "Am I/we being investigated? If so, send the appropriate notice and our lawyer will consider what we should tell you. If not, tell us what information you want, and we will consider and provide a written response in due course."
If a taxpayer has been found to be delinquent in paying taxes, in some cases a court order may be obtained seizing assets, including unpaid debts. But no IRS agent can make such a claim on the spot, and indeed for a client to make such a payment without such a court order (or the creditor's written consent) would itself be unlawful and would subject the lawyer to a suit by the PI.
When the lawyer pays s service provider, a 1099 must be filed with the IRS. If the PI is a corporation, a different form is used, but a record of payment is still required. As failure to timely file such a form is a violation of the tax code, an accusation of paying without filing would permit the lawyer to decline to answer under the Fifth amendment. If the lawyer did pay and did file a 1099 or other documentation, the IRS would know what had been payed, and would not need to confront the PI.
Also, as the comment by Hilmar points out, a PI would be likely to use the cash accounting method, and so would own no tax on work performed but unpaid (as yet). So unless the IRS agent thinks the PI was paid "off-the books" and is intentionally failing to report the payment, there would be no point to such a question. And if that were he case, the lawyer would be very likely to decline to answer.
I find the story quite implausible.
There is no general law making it illegal to lie about debts, or anything else. It is illegal to lie to a law enforcement officer in the course of an investigation. But it is in no way unlawful to decline to answer, unless a proper court order has been obtained, or other lawful means of compelling an answer. I would expect any law office to respond to such a question with something like "Am I/we being investigated? If so, send the appropriate notice and our lawyer will consider what we should tell you. If not, tell us what information you want, and we will consider and provide a written response in due course."
If a taxpayer has been found to be delinquent in paying taxes, in some cases a court order may be obtained seizing assets, including unpaid debts. But no IRS agent can make such a claim on the spot, and indeed for a client to make such a payment without such a court order (or the creditor's written consent) would itself be unlawful and would subject the lawyer to a suit by the PI.
When the lawyer pays s service provider, a 1099 must be filed with the IRS. If the PI is a corporation, a different form is used, but a record of payment is still required. As failure to timely file such a form is a violation of the tax code, an accusation of paying without filing would permit the lawyer to decline to answer under the Fifth amendment. If the lawyer did pay and did file a 1099 or other documentation, the IRS would know what had been payed, and would not need to confront the PI.
Also, as the comment by Hilmar points out, a PI would be likely to use the cash accounting method, and so would own no tax on work performed but unpaid (as yet). So unless the IRS agent thinks the PI was paid "off-the books" and is intentionally failing to report the payment, there would be no point to such a question. And if that were he case, the lawyer would be very likely to decline to answer.
I find the story quite implausible.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
David SiegelDavid Siegel
20.7k14080
20.7k14080
It's a shame. I liked the story :-) The point about cash accounting (it's only income and you only owe tax if/when the bill is paid) is something I completely missed.
– gnasher729
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 Yes, but to me the point more telling is that an IRS agent just doesn't have the power to say "do this" and have people, esp lawyers, comply rather than say "where's your warrant / court order"
– David Siegel
6 hours ago
add a comment |
It's a shame. I liked the story :-) The point about cash accounting (it's only income and you only owe tax if/when the bill is paid) is something I completely missed.
– gnasher729
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 Yes, but to me the point more telling is that an IRS agent just doesn't have the power to say "do this" and have people, esp lawyers, comply rather than say "where's your warrant / court order"
– David Siegel
6 hours ago
It's a shame. I liked the story :-) The point about cash accounting (it's only income and you only owe tax if/when the bill is paid) is something I completely missed.
– gnasher729
6 hours ago
It's a shame. I liked the story :-) The point about cash accounting (it's only income and you only owe tax if/when the bill is paid) is something I completely missed.
– gnasher729
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 Yes, but to me the point more telling is that an IRS agent just doesn't have the power to say "do this" and have people, esp lawyers, comply rather than say "where's your warrant / court order"
– David Siegel
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 Yes, but to me the point more telling is that an IRS agent just doesn't have the power to say "do this" and have people, esp lawyers, comply rather than say "where's your warrant / court order"
– David Siegel
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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Seems like a bogus story. A private detective will likely use the "cash method" for accounting and so there is no tax due until he actually gets the money. And the likelihood of the IRS actually intervening is close to zero.
– Hilmar
8 hours ago