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Is it possible writing coservation of relativistic energy in this naive way?
Physical interpretation of equation for relativistic aberrationIs momentum conservation for the classical Schrödinger equation due to non-relativistic or due to some more exotic invariance?Is it possible extend Schrodinger theory in relativistic contexts with naive consideration?Principle of relativity and point particle in electromagnetic fieldEquivalence between Lorenz gauge and continuity equationComplete set of equations in relativistic hydrodynamicsWhy do we differentiate a 4 vector with respect to proper time to obtain 4-velocity?Stuck trying to prove conservation of energyIs the Lorentz transform of a bound current - a bound current?A simple proof covariance of Maxwell equations
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$begingroup$
Conservation of charge or rest mass can be written in this way and it is Lorentz invariant
$$
nabla cdot (rho mathbfu) + fracpartial rhopartial t = 0
$$
So we could be tempted to naively write conservation of energy in this way (I use $gamma_u$ for particle in motion at speed $mathbfu$ to not making confusion with $gamma$ relative to speed of $S'$)
$$
nabla cdot (gamma_u rho mathbfu) + fracpartial (gamma_u rho)partial t = 0
$$
But this doesn't look Lorentz invariant. I wrong? Exploiting vector identity $nabla cdot (Psi mathbfA) = Psi (nabla cdot mathbfA) + mathbfA cdot (nabla Psi)$ (whit $Psi=gamma_u $) and exploiting conservation of mass, this equation became
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0
$$
where mass is strangely disappeared. But transforming the corresponding primed equation with
$$
fracpartialpartial x' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial x + fracvc^2 fracpartialpartial t right)
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial y' = fracpartialpartial y
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial z' = fracpartialpartial z
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial t' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial t + v fracpartialpartial x right)
$$
$$
u_x' = fracu_x - v1-fracu_x vc^2
$$
$$
u_y' = fracu_ygamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
u_z' = fracu_zgamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
gamma_u' = gamma gamma_u left( 1 - fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
we get
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) left[ gamma_u left(1-fracu_x vc^2 right) right] = 0
$$
That it is different than $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ written above. Another road could be exploiting
$$
fracpartial gamma_upartial x_i =
fracgamma_u^3c^2 mathbfu cdot fracpartial mathbfupartial x_i qquad textrmwhere $x_i=x,y,z,t$
$$
to transform $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ into
$$
mathbfu cdot left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0
$$
but this equation too doesn't lead to the invariance (although $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0$ is actually invariant). There is a way to check the invariance, or writing conservation of energy in that simple way is incorrect?
special-relativity energy-conservation conservation-laws inertial-frames lorentz-symmetry
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Conservation of charge or rest mass can be written in this way and it is Lorentz invariant
$$
nabla cdot (rho mathbfu) + fracpartial rhopartial t = 0
$$
So we could be tempted to naively write conservation of energy in this way (I use $gamma_u$ for particle in motion at speed $mathbfu$ to not making confusion with $gamma$ relative to speed of $S'$)
$$
nabla cdot (gamma_u rho mathbfu) + fracpartial (gamma_u rho)partial t = 0
$$
But this doesn't look Lorentz invariant. I wrong? Exploiting vector identity $nabla cdot (Psi mathbfA) = Psi (nabla cdot mathbfA) + mathbfA cdot (nabla Psi)$ (whit $Psi=gamma_u $) and exploiting conservation of mass, this equation became
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0
$$
where mass is strangely disappeared. But transforming the corresponding primed equation with
$$
fracpartialpartial x' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial x + fracvc^2 fracpartialpartial t right)
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial y' = fracpartialpartial y
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial z' = fracpartialpartial z
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial t' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial t + v fracpartialpartial x right)
$$
$$
u_x' = fracu_x - v1-fracu_x vc^2
$$
$$
u_y' = fracu_ygamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
u_z' = fracu_zgamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
gamma_u' = gamma gamma_u left( 1 - fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
we get
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) left[ gamma_u left(1-fracu_x vc^2 right) right] = 0
$$
That it is different than $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ written above. Another road could be exploiting
$$
fracpartial gamma_upartial x_i =
fracgamma_u^3c^2 mathbfu cdot fracpartial mathbfupartial x_i qquad textrmwhere $x_i=x,y,z,t$
$$
to transform $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ into
$$
mathbfu cdot left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0
$$
but this equation too doesn't lead to the invariance (although $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0$ is actually invariant). There is a way to check the invariance, or writing conservation of energy in that simple way is incorrect?
special-relativity energy-conservation conservation-laws inertial-frames lorentz-symmetry
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Conservation of charge or rest mass can be written in this way and it is Lorentz invariant
$$
nabla cdot (rho mathbfu) + fracpartial rhopartial t = 0
$$
So we could be tempted to naively write conservation of energy in this way (I use $gamma_u$ for particle in motion at speed $mathbfu$ to not making confusion with $gamma$ relative to speed of $S'$)
$$
nabla cdot (gamma_u rho mathbfu) + fracpartial (gamma_u rho)partial t = 0
$$
But this doesn't look Lorentz invariant. I wrong? Exploiting vector identity $nabla cdot (Psi mathbfA) = Psi (nabla cdot mathbfA) + mathbfA cdot (nabla Psi)$ (whit $Psi=gamma_u $) and exploiting conservation of mass, this equation became
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0
$$
where mass is strangely disappeared. But transforming the corresponding primed equation with
$$
fracpartialpartial x' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial x + fracvc^2 fracpartialpartial t right)
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial y' = fracpartialpartial y
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial z' = fracpartialpartial z
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial t' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial t + v fracpartialpartial x right)
$$
$$
u_x' = fracu_x - v1-fracu_x vc^2
$$
$$
u_y' = fracu_ygamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
u_z' = fracu_zgamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
gamma_u' = gamma gamma_u left( 1 - fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
we get
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) left[ gamma_u left(1-fracu_x vc^2 right) right] = 0
$$
That it is different than $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ written above. Another road could be exploiting
$$
fracpartial gamma_upartial x_i =
fracgamma_u^3c^2 mathbfu cdot fracpartial mathbfupartial x_i qquad textrmwhere $x_i=x,y,z,t$
$$
to transform $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ into
$$
mathbfu cdot left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0
$$
but this equation too doesn't lead to the invariance (although $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0$ is actually invariant). There is a way to check the invariance, or writing conservation of energy in that simple way is incorrect?
special-relativity energy-conservation conservation-laws inertial-frames lorentz-symmetry
$endgroup$
Conservation of charge or rest mass can be written in this way and it is Lorentz invariant
$$
nabla cdot (rho mathbfu) + fracpartial rhopartial t = 0
$$
So we could be tempted to naively write conservation of energy in this way (I use $gamma_u$ for particle in motion at speed $mathbfu$ to not making confusion with $gamma$ relative to speed of $S'$)
$$
nabla cdot (gamma_u rho mathbfu) + fracpartial (gamma_u rho)partial t = 0
$$
But this doesn't look Lorentz invariant. I wrong? Exploiting vector identity $nabla cdot (Psi mathbfA) = Psi (nabla cdot mathbfA) + mathbfA cdot (nabla Psi)$ (whit $Psi=gamma_u $) and exploiting conservation of mass, this equation became
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0
$$
where mass is strangely disappeared. But transforming the corresponding primed equation with
$$
fracpartialpartial x' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial x + fracvc^2 fracpartialpartial t right)
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial y' = fracpartialpartial y
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial z' = fracpartialpartial z
$$
$$
fracpartialpartial t' = gamma left( fracpartialpartial t + v fracpartialpartial x right)
$$
$$
u_x' = fracu_x - v1-fracu_x vc^2
$$
$$
u_y' = fracu_ygamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
u_z' = fracu_zgamma left( 1-fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
$$
gamma_u' = gamma gamma_u left( 1 - fracu_x vc^2 right)
$$
we get
$$
left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) left[ gamma_u left(1-fracu_x vc^2 right) right] = 0
$$
That it is different than $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ written above. Another road could be exploiting
$$
fracpartial gamma_upartial x_i =
fracgamma_u^3c^2 mathbfu cdot fracpartial mathbfupartial x_i qquad textrmwhere $x_i=x,y,z,t$
$$
to transform $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) gamma_u = 0$ into
$$
mathbfu cdot left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0
$$
but this equation too doesn't lead to the invariance (although $left(
mathbfu cdot nabla + fracpartialpartial t right) mathbfu = 0$ is actually invariant). There is a way to check the invariance, or writing conservation of energy in that simple way is incorrect?
special-relativity energy-conservation conservation-laws inertial-frames lorentz-symmetry
special-relativity energy-conservation conservation-laws inertial-frames lorentz-symmetry
edited 7 hours ago
Qmechanic♦
110k12 gold badges210 silver badges1292 bronze badges
110k12 gold badges210 silver badges1292 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
Fausto VezzaroFausto Vezzaro
4944 silver badges14 bronze badges
4944 silver badges14 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Your sense of caution is correct. Energy conservation does not work like this, because energy is not a scalar invariant quantity (contrast with electric charge). This means the quantity you wrote as a 4-divergence of energy flux is not a 4-vector. But we can express energy conservation by going one step further into relativity, using the stress-energy tensor. This is a second rank tensor $bf T$ whose components express energy per unit volume, momentum per unit volume, flux of energy, pressure and sheer stress. All of these are involved in a consideration of energy and momentum passing from one place to another, or between one system and another. The conservation of energy and momentum is expressed
$$
partial_mu T^mu b = 0
$$
which is a shorthand for
$$
sum_mu=0^3 fracpartialpartial x^mu T^mu b = 0
$$
The physics here is quite involved; this answer is just a small pointer.
You mention in your question something that you refer to as "conservation of mass", but you should note that there is no conservation law for mass, unless you mean the conservation of energy, but then it would be better to call it energy.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general you have to consider the stress energy tensor. If you want only energy conservation (without the stress and momentum part of the tensor) you can take $partial_nu T^0 nu=fracpartialpartial t omega + nabla vecS/c=0$, where $omega$ is the energy density and $vecS$ the energy flow density.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We can't just insert $gamma$ into the equation of continuity, which in this case is a formulation of conservation of rest mass for a free particle:
$$
fracpartial rhopartial t + nabla cdot (rho mathbf v) = 0,
$$
and expect the resulting equation will still be valid.
Also, although the above equation has the same form in all inertial frames, this by itself does not imply that the 4-tuple $(rho c, rhomathbf v)$ is a four-vector. In this case it is a 4-vector, similarly to electric current density $j^mu$. But there are other cases where the same kind of equation $partial_mu S^mu = 0$ is valid in all frames, but where $S$ is not a four-vector. Notable example is the Poynting energy density and momentum density 3-vector in matter-free space.
Similar things will happen for matter energy; even if (and that is a big if) one could derive such simple equation for this energy, this wouldn't imply the energy 4-tuple is a 4-vector. In fact, in EM theory based on Maxwell's equations there is no way to formulate energy conservation where energy density of matter or EM field is a part of some 4-vector field; one must one 4-tensors of 2nd rank (which are represented by 4x4 entries).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Your sense of caution is correct. Energy conservation does not work like this, because energy is not a scalar invariant quantity (contrast with electric charge). This means the quantity you wrote as a 4-divergence of energy flux is not a 4-vector. But we can express energy conservation by going one step further into relativity, using the stress-energy tensor. This is a second rank tensor $bf T$ whose components express energy per unit volume, momentum per unit volume, flux of energy, pressure and sheer stress. All of these are involved in a consideration of energy and momentum passing from one place to another, or between one system and another. The conservation of energy and momentum is expressed
$$
partial_mu T^mu b = 0
$$
which is a shorthand for
$$
sum_mu=0^3 fracpartialpartial x^mu T^mu b = 0
$$
The physics here is quite involved; this answer is just a small pointer.
You mention in your question something that you refer to as "conservation of mass", but you should note that there is no conservation law for mass, unless you mean the conservation of energy, but then it would be better to call it energy.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your sense of caution is correct. Energy conservation does not work like this, because energy is not a scalar invariant quantity (contrast with electric charge). This means the quantity you wrote as a 4-divergence of energy flux is not a 4-vector. But we can express energy conservation by going one step further into relativity, using the stress-energy tensor. This is a second rank tensor $bf T$ whose components express energy per unit volume, momentum per unit volume, flux of energy, pressure and sheer stress. All of these are involved in a consideration of energy and momentum passing from one place to another, or between one system and another. The conservation of energy and momentum is expressed
$$
partial_mu T^mu b = 0
$$
which is a shorthand for
$$
sum_mu=0^3 fracpartialpartial x^mu T^mu b = 0
$$
The physics here is quite involved; this answer is just a small pointer.
You mention in your question something that you refer to as "conservation of mass", but you should note that there is no conservation law for mass, unless you mean the conservation of energy, but then it would be better to call it energy.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your sense of caution is correct. Energy conservation does not work like this, because energy is not a scalar invariant quantity (contrast with electric charge). This means the quantity you wrote as a 4-divergence of energy flux is not a 4-vector. But we can express energy conservation by going one step further into relativity, using the stress-energy tensor. This is a second rank tensor $bf T$ whose components express energy per unit volume, momentum per unit volume, flux of energy, pressure and sheer stress. All of these are involved in a consideration of energy and momentum passing from one place to another, or between one system and another. The conservation of energy and momentum is expressed
$$
partial_mu T^mu b = 0
$$
which is a shorthand for
$$
sum_mu=0^3 fracpartialpartial x^mu T^mu b = 0
$$
The physics here is quite involved; this answer is just a small pointer.
You mention in your question something that you refer to as "conservation of mass", but you should note that there is no conservation law for mass, unless you mean the conservation of energy, but then it would be better to call it energy.
$endgroup$
Your sense of caution is correct. Energy conservation does not work like this, because energy is not a scalar invariant quantity (contrast with electric charge). This means the quantity you wrote as a 4-divergence of energy flux is not a 4-vector. But we can express energy conservation by going one step further into relativity, using the stress-energy tensor. This is a second rank tensor $bf T$ whose components express energy per unit volume, momentum per unit volume, flux of energy, pressure and sheer stress. All of these are involved in a consideration of energy and momentum passing from one place to another, or between one system and another. The conservation of energy and momentum is expressed
$$
partial_mu T^mu b = 0
$$
which is a shorthand for
$$
sum_mu=0^3 fracpartialpartial x^mu T^mu b = 0
$$
The physics here is quite involved; this answer is just a small pointer.
You mention in your question something that you refer to as "conservation of mass", but you should note that there is no conservation law for mass, unless you mean the conservation of energy, but then it would be better to call it energy.
answered 8 hours ago
Andrew SteaneAndrew Steane
7,1561 gold badge8 silver badges40 bronze badges
7,1561 gold badge8 silver badges40 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general you have to consider the stress energy tensor. If you want only energy conservation (without the stress and momentum part of the tensor) you can take $partial_nu T^0 nu=fracpartialpartial t omega + nabla vecS/c=0$, where $omega$ is the energy density and $vecS$ the energy flow density.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general you have to consider the stress energy tensor. If you want only energy conservation (without the stress and momentum part of the tensor) you can take $partial_nu T^0 nu=fracpartialpartial t omega + nabla vecS/c=0$, where $omega$ is the energy density and $vecS$ the energy flow density.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general you have to consider the stress energy tensor. If you want only energy conservation (without the stress and momentum part of the tensor) you can take $partial_nu T^0 nu=fracpartialpartial t omega + nabla vecS/c=0$, where $omega$ is the energy density and $vecS$ the energy flow density.
$endgroup$
In general you have to consider the stress energy tensor. If you want only energy conservation (without the stress and momentum part of the tensor) you can take $partial_nu T^0 nu=fracpartialpartial t omega + nabla vecS/c=0$, where $omega$ is the energy density and $vecS$ the energy flow density.
answered 7 hours ago
AzzinothAzzinoth
1837 bronze badges
1837 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We can't just insert $gamma$ into the equation of continuity, which in this case is a formulation of conservation of rest mass for a free particle:
$$
fracpartial rhopartial t + nabla cdot (rho mathbf v) = 0,
$$
and expect the resulting equation will still be valid.
Also, although the above equation has the same form in all inertial frames, this by itself does not imply that the 4-tuple $(rho c, rhomathbf v)$ is a four-vector. In this case it is a 4-vector, similarly to electric current density $j^mu$. But there are other cases where the same kind of equation $partial_mu S^mu = 0$ is valid in all frames, but where $S$ is not a four-vector. Notable example is the Poynting energy density and momentum density 3-vector in matter-free space.
Similar things will happen for matter energy; even if (and that is a big if) one could derive such simple equation for this energy, this wouldn't imply the energy 4-tuple is a 4-vector. In fact, in EM theory based on Maxwell's equations there is no way to formulate energy conservation where energy density of matter or EM field is a part of some 4-vector field; one must one 4-tensors of 2nd rank (which are represented by 4x4 entries).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We can't just insert $gamma$ into the equation of continuity, which in this case is a formulation of conservation of rest mass for a free particle:
$$
fracpartial rhopartial t + nabla cdot (rho mathbf v) = 0,
$$
and expect the resulting equation will still be valid.
Also, although the above equation has the same form in all inertial frames, this by itself does not imply that the 4-tuple $(rho c, rhomathbf v)$ is a four-vector. In this case it is a 4-vector, similarly to electric current density $j^mu$. But there are other cases where the same kind of equation $partial_mu S^mu = 0$ is valid in all frames, but where $S$ is not a four-vector. Notable example is the Poynting energy density and momentum density 3-vector in matter-free space.
Similar things will happen for matter energy; even if (and that is a big if) one could derive such simple equation for this energy, this wouldn't imply the energy 4-tuple is a 4-vector. In fact, in EM theory based on Maxwell's equations there is no way to formulate energy conservation where energy density of matter or EM field is a part of some 4-vector field; one must one 4-tensors of 2nd rank (which are represented by 4x4 entries).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We can't just insert $gamma$ into the equation of continuity, which in this case is a formulation of conservation of rest mass for a free particle:
$$
fracpartial rhopartial t + nabla cdot (rho mathbf v) = 0,
$$
and expect the resulting equation will still be valid.
Also, although the above equation has the same form in all inertial frames, this by itself does not imply that the 4-tuple $(rho c, rhomathbf v)$ is a four-vector. In this case it is a 4-vector, similarly to electric current density $j^mu$. But there are other cases where the same kind of equation $partial_mu S^mu = 0$ is valid in all frames, but where $S$ is not a four-vector. Notable example is the Poynting energy density and momentum density 3-vector in matter-free space.
Similar things will happen for matter energy; even if (and that is a big if) one could derive such simple equation for this energy, this wouldn't imply the energy 4-tuple is a 4-vector. In fact, in EM theory based on Maxwell's equations there is no way to formulate energy conservation where energy density of matter or EM field is a part of some 4-vector field; one must one 4-tensors of 2nd rank (which are represented by 4x4 entries).
$endgroup$
We can't just insert $gamma$ into the equation of continuity, which in this case is a formulation of conservation of rest mass for a free particle:
$$
fracpartial rhopartial t + nabla cdot (rho mathbf v) = 0,
$$
and expect the resulting equation will still be valid.
Also, although the above equation has the same form in all inertial frames, this by itself does not imply that the 4-tuple $(rho c, rhomathbf v)$ is a four-vector. In this case it is a 4-vector, similarly to electric current density $j^mu$. But there are other cases where the same kind of equation $partial_mu S^mu = 0$ is valid in all frames, but where $S$ is not a four-vector. Notable example is the Poynting energy density and momentum density 3-vector in matter-free space.
Similar things will happen for matter energy; even if (and that is a big if) one could derive such simple equation for this energy, this wouldn't imply the energy 4-tuple is a 4-vector. In fact, in EM theory based on Maxwell's equations there is no way to formulate energy conservation where energy density of matter or EM field is a part of some 4-vector field; one must one 4-tensors of 2nd rank (which are represented by 4x4 entries).
answered 6 hours ago
Ján LalinskýJán Lalinský
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17.4k15 silver badges44 bronze badges
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