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What makes an ending “happy”?
How much sex can I write if I'm after mainstream success?What is the effect on the young reader when there is no “Happy Ending” in a story for children?How common *are* happy endings?Do romances need to have a happy ending?Genre conventions: Which end do readers expect?What to avoid when writing a happy ending?How do I end a comedy sketch?Prepare for more after the “ending”?Non-trope happy ending?Given two alternative, strong endings to a novel, how to decide which one to use?
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In this answer, Amadeus makes the case for happy endings based on their far greater popularity compared to unhappy endings.
This leads me to wonder, what exactly makes an ending "happy"?
Before I go further, though, let me say that talking about a "satisfactory" ending doesn't address this question. Let's take it as read that both happy ending and sad endings can be "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory". My question is, among satisfactory endings, what, for purpose of assessing the market potential of a piece of fiction, defines a "happy" as opposed to a "sad" ending.
Let us also take it as read that books with unhappy endings can and do sell well sometimes. But it would certainly seem that the deck is stacked against them.
The quintessential happy ending is Cinderella. Poor girl goes to dance, marries prince, lives happily ever after. Cindy is clearly better off in every way at the end of the story than she was at the beginning.
But what about Lord of the Rings, in which Sauron is defeated and the Shire restored but Frodo is so crippled by his trials that he can never live happily in the Shire again, but must pass over the sea from the Grey Havens. Frodo is not better off at the end than he was at the beginning (except perhaps in the religious sense of having achieved a heavenly reward). Is that a happy ending?
What about an ending in which our hero dies saving the world (Tony Stark in End Game, for the sake of an example that is likely to be widely known). Is that a happy ending?
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances an happy ending?
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
I am sure we all have our personal preferences, but is there any psychological or commercial theory or study that would define what "happy ending" means for the publishing industry and/or the reading public.
fiction ending
add a comment |
In this answer, Amadeus makes the case for happy endings based on their far greater popularity compared to unhappy endings.
This leads me to wonder, what exactly makes an ending "happy"?
Before I go further, though, let me say that talking about a "satisfactory" ending doesn't address this question. Let's take it as read that both happy ending and sad endings can be "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory". My question is, among satisfactory endings, what, for purpose of assessing the market potential of a piece of fiction, defines a "happy" as opposed to a "sad" ending.
Let us also take it as read that books with unhappy endings can and do sell well sometimes. But it would certainly seem that the deck is stacked against them.
The quintessential happy ending is Cinderella. Poor girl goes to dance, marries prince, lives happily ever after. Cindy is clearly better off in every way at the end of the story than she was at the beginning.
But what about Lord of the Rings, in which Sauron is defeated and the Shire restored but Frodo is so crippled by his trials that he can never live happily in the Shire again, but must pass over the sea from the Grey Havens. Frodo is not better off at the end than he was at the beginning (except perhaps in the religious sense of having achieved a heavenly reward). Is that a happy ending?
What about an ending in which our hero dies saving the world (Tony Stark in End Game, for the sake of an example that is likely to be widely known). Is that a happy ending?
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances an happy ending?
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
I am sure we all have our personal preferences, but is there any psychological or commercial theory or study that would define what "happy ending" means for the publishing industry and/or the reading public.
fiction ending
add a comment |
In this answer, Amadeus makes the case for happy endings based on their far greater popularity compared to unhappy endings.
This leads me to wonder, what exactly makes an ending "happy"?
Before I go further, though, let me say that talking about a "satisfactory" ending doesn't address this question. Let's take it as read that both happy ending and sad endings can be "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory". My question is, among satisfactory endings, what, for purpose of assessing the market potential of a piece of fiction, defines a "happy" as opposed to a "sad" ending.
Let us also take it as read that books with unhappy endings can and do sell well sometimes. But it would certainly seem that the deck is stacked against them.
The quintessential happy ending is Cinderella. Poor girl goes to dance, marries prince, lives happily ever after. Cindy is clearly better off in every way at the end of the story than she was at the beginning.
But what about Lord of the Rings, in which Sauron is defeated and the Shire restored but Frodo is so crippled by his trials that he can never live happily in the Shire again, but must pass over the sea from the Grey Havens. Frodo is not better off at the end than he was at the beginning (except perhaps in the religious sense of having achieved a heavenly reward). Is that a happy ending?
What about an ending in which our hero dies saving the world (Tony Stark in End Game, for the sake of an example that is likely to be widely known). Is that a happy ending?
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances an happy ending?
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
I am sure we all have our personal preferences, but is there any psychological or commercial theory or study that would define what "happy ending" means for the publishing industry and/or the reading public.
fiction ending
In this answer, Amadeus makes the case for happy endings based on their far greater popularity compared to unhappy endings.
This leads me to wonder, what exactly makes an ending "happy"?
Before I go further, though, let me say that talking about a "satisfactory" ending doesn't address this question. Let's take it as read that both happy ending and sad endings can be "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory". My question is, among satisfactory endings, what, for purpose of assessing the market potential of a piece of fiction, defines a "happy" as opposed to a "sad" ending.
Let us also take it as read that books with unhappy endings can and do sell well sometimes. But it would certainly seem that the deck is stacked against them.
The quintessential happy ending is Cinderella. Poor girl goes to dance, marries prince, lives happily ever after. Cindy is clearly better off in every way at the end of the story than she was at the beginning.
But what about Lord of the Rings, in which Sauron is defeated and the Shire restored but Frodo is so crippled by his trials that he can never live happily in the Shire again, but must pass over the sea from the Grey Havens. Frodo is not better off at the end than he was at the beginning (except perhaps in the religious sense of having achieved a heavenly reward). Is that a happy ending?
What about an ending in which our hero dies saving the world (Tony Stark in End Game, for the sake of an example that is likely to be widely known). Is that a happy ending?
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances an happy ending?
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
I am sure we all have our personal preferences, but is there any psychological or commercial theory or study that would define what "happy ending" means for the publishing industry and/or the reading public.
fiction ending
fiction ending
edited 7 hours ago
Cyn♦
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asked 8 hours ago
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5 Answers
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A happy ending is about the emotional response the work as a whole evokes in the reader (or viewer).
A sad ending or any other type would be the same. It's the state you've reduced the audience to at the end.
There are no quantitative measures because no one's journey involves ticking boxes. Every story, no matter how simplified, will have good and bad in it. Taking your example of Cinderella, Disney and other mainstream versions are pretty much the definition of a movie with a happy ending. Yet even children can see the sad parts.
- Cinderella has to leave the home she grew up in, with her memories of her deceased parents. While most girls of that era expected that to happen upon marriage, in her case she can't go back and visit.
- She must give up on any hope of winning the love of her stepmother and stepsisters on her own merit (any positive gesture they make she will assume (usually correctly) comes from their motivation to please her now that she is a princess destined to be their Queen).
- In some versions (not Disney), the stepsisters are badly mutilated (by their own choice, but it's still sad and awful). In Disney's version, their end may be unsatisfying because they're shown up but not punished for their and their mother's wicked deeds.
- The cat dies. He may have been stuck up and naughty, but murder (arranging for him to fall to his death) is a pretty gruesome end.
Yet we the viewers don't think about any of that. At the forefront is the joy of Cinderella "winning" and finding her true love and getting the hell out of there. Our joy is what makes it a happy ending. Not every viewer will feel the same way, but enough will consider this ending happy that we can safely call it that.
In cases where the work is more complex, with both happy and sad outcomes, we refer to the ending as mixed as well. Your quintessential happy ending usually comes in works for children or families, genres where that's expected (like Romance), or anything aiming for a "feel good" style. While the work can be nuanced or simplistic, it's generally the latter.
Audiences might say such a work "had a happy ending, but it was so sad" or something like that. Sometimes the happy ending style doesn't fit, even if the characters accomplished their goals and/or saved the world.
add a comment |
I'm by no means an expert, so take this answer as opinion. But here's my take all the same.
The way I view this is: what does the ending achieve?
If in the case of Cinderella she marries the prince, has the life she deserves (since she was the 'true heiress' of her father's land and titles), but she's a lesbian? This isn't a happy ending, but merely not a tragedy. Conversely, if Cinderella is a lesbian and simply gets out from under the oppressive step mother and step sisters? This could also be a happy ending, while not giving her the ticket to easy street.
So, I would argue that a 'happily ever after', or 'happy for now' is more a personal journey for the main character. If their journey is to escape poverty and the story ends with them getting a job that would support their lifestyle (meagrely or comfortably), would be a happy ending.
However, if the journey is to not starve and they wind up in prison, where they have a roof over their head and three square meals a day? They aren't starving, but calling it 'happy' is debatable at best.
From the reader's perspective, I would argue that the HEA/HFN ending is the one that makes them think the main character is going to be okay. Maybe not the lottery ticket they hoped for, but they can close the book secure in the knowledge the main character is either on the road to their promised land, or already in customs being screened before being allowed in.
As long as it's earned in the eyes of the reader and/or story. Whether from a narrative standpoint (they survived the war and deserve some peace like Frodo), from a character development standpoint (they grew past their defining character flaw that they've struggled with throughout the story), or from an optimistic 'I wish you the best' standpoint (like an underdog story where the reader wants them to become the champion of that otherwise pointless tournament).
add a comment |
I think the assertion that Amadeus had a happy ending is highly debatable.
I think most people would consider that a tragedy. The life of a genius cut short and ruined by emotional immaturity and hubris.
Frodo had a happy ending. He stopped apocalypse, saved his friends, his people and the world, and then gained admission to the Undying land.
Tony Stark in End Game is a happy ending. He completed his journey with a heroic sacrifice. Though it was kind of an unnecessary sacrifice, as Magical Marvel should have been able to snap her finger and save the universe herself, without dying.
Cinderella's is not just a happy ending, it is a fairy tale ending (a specific type of happy ending)
I think a happy ending is an ending with where the character grew and the quest fulfilled. Amadeus had genius. But he didn't grow, and his life was cut short and the world was poorer for it.
Death itself does not an unhappy ending make. Everyone dies in the end, even elves and cinderella
1
The OP is referring here to Amadeus the Writing.SE user, and not Amadeus the composer in a movie of the same name.
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
@Cyn: most of his other references are to movies.. never watched Amadeus, the play, though one would imagine Mozart died young with promises unfulfilled in that one as well.
– dolphin_of_france
7 hours ago
Please note the intro "in this answer...".
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france In the movie "Amadeus" the Mozart character does not have a happy ending, but in a sense using Salieri as a villainous POV character (he was not IRL), Amadeus the childish genius is indeed triumphant, even in death. You will notice at the start, Salieri, near death, plays for a priest his own greatest hits: None of which are recognized. Then he pecks out "Ein Klein Nachtmusik" (A little night music) and the priest LOVES it, remembers it, praises him for writing it -- And Salieri tells him it was Mozart. Salieri the villain is miserable and forgotten, but Mozart is immortal.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france I will disagree. It makes no difference what Mozart thought or what happened IRL, the happy ending is in the mind of the audience. They know Salieri was the villain even if Mozart thought him a friend, they know Salieri failed in his jealous quest to silence Mozart. As a story it is contained in the film, it is a semi-fictional biopic. Do we ask what "really happened" to Jason Bourne? What "really happened" to Mozart is immaterial, the ending is in the picture. Comments here are not for debate.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
The pragmatic "Hollywood" answer is a film has a happy ending if it leaves room for a sequel. Although Tony Stark dies, they did have sequels with him, and in this particular case, another Iron Man could arise (just like when 007 gets tired), or a prequel, etc.
I get that "satisfied" is a squishy term, but probably because it can depend on the genre. A Romantic Comedy that doesn't end with a couple together is not a happy ending, a spy thriller that doesn't end with a couple together can be happy, if they stopped the villain.
Bruce Willis in Armageddon is a borderline example: There is no real room for a sequel or prequel, but it is a "happy ending" because he dies saving the world, and more specifically his crew of friends, and even more specifically, above all, his daughter, on screen to the moment he triggers the nuclear bomb he's sitting on.
We accept this death because (a) he chose it, and (b) he prevails and saves his child, along with eight billion other people. He did not fail. The villain (the asteroid) is irrecoverably dead.
In the Lord of the Rings, the villain is defeated. Frodo is not better off, but the world is. Like Willis in Armageddon, his sacrifice is appreciated. And in his case, Hollywood could argue there is still room for a sequel, many adventures could be told in Middle Earth with other characters.
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances a happy ending?
Almost, but it depends on the audience's expectations. A Romantic comedy that ends in the death of one of the Leads is not a happy ending, forget moral triumph. In a comedy, there can be deaths, but I can't think of an instance in which the MC dies. You have to leave 'em laughing, or at least grinning.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
That would be a redemption drama; and that could absolutely be a happy ending. Somebody did something unforgiveable, especially to her, but when the time and opportunity came she found the courage to balance the scales. Despite the toll she took on humanity, in the end her life did us more good than harm, because she sacrificed.
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
No. Using your last example, or Armageddon, I think the Happy Ending is that in some way, the world is collectively better off that the MC was there. Even if that is for just one person, like in a romantic comedy. The world is a better place for two people in love, than not in love; no moral triumph needed.
As for publishing and Hollywood, I think the "sequel", "prequel", or "new adventure" angle (e.g. 007, Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes is nearly always a new adventure, not a sequel or prequel) is definitely a part of their thinking. One-off films are produced and can be blockbusters (e.g. The Sixth Sense), so just "story power" is a part of it, but if there is the potential for a follow up with the character(s) it does makes the work more attractive. And "happy ending" means the audience feels good about the MC, not angry at the outcome.
add a comment |
The protagonist(s) win/s, the antagonist(s) is/are defeated (even temporarily), and the reader can imagine the protagonists continuing on to other adventures, or with their lives, in some positive way.
- I would argue that Endgame is a mixed ending, not a happy one,
specifically because not all the protagonists win and get to continue
on (Tony, Natasha, Vision, Loki, Heimdall).
Avengers has a happy ending.
Armageddon is mixed because Bruce Willis's character dies, even
if his daughter is safe.- LOTR as a trilogy — you know, I was going to say it has a happy ending, even if it has some bittersweet notes, because the elves and Ring-Bearers (plus Legolas and Gimli) who depart go on to the West and become immortal. (Arwen and Aragorn, long-lived but mortal,
are bittersweet: they do go on with their lives, but their lives are
not infinite.) But we lose Boromir and Thèoden. I guess that could be argued either way.
The Hobbit is more mixed because so many of the dwarves die.
Cinderella is a fairy tale and does not have to adhere to modern narrative structures.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
I wouldn't call that a happy ending if her sacrifice ends in her death. It may be satisfying, karmic, or redemptive, but the character herself doesn't get to continue on.
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5 Answers
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A happy ending is about the emotional response the work as a whole evokes in the reader (or viewer).
A sad ending or any other type would be the same. It's the state you've reduced the audience to at the end.
There are no quantitative measures because no one's journey involves ticking boxes. Every story, no matter how simplified, will have good and bad in it. Taking your example of Cinderella, Disney and other mainstream versions are pretty much the definition of a movie with a happy ending. Yet even children can see the sad parts.
- Cinderella has to leave the home she grew up in, with her memories of her deceased parents. While most girls of that era expected that to happen upon marriage, in her case she can't go back and visit.
- She must give up on any hope of winning the love of her stepmother and stepsisters on her own merit (any positive gesture they make she will assume (usually correctly) comes from their motivation to please her now that she is a princess destined to be their Queen).
- In some versions (not Disney), the stepsisters are badly mutilated (by their own choice, but it's still sad and awful). In Disney's version, their end may be unsatisfying because they're shown up but not punished for their and their mother's wicked deeds.
- The cat dies. He may have been stuck up and naughty, but murder (arranging for him to fall to his death) is a pretty gruesome end.
Yet we the viewers don't think about any of that. At the forefront is the joy of Cinderella "winning" and finding her true love and getting the hell out of there. Our joy is what makes it a happy ending. Not every viewer will feel the same way, but enough will consider this ending happy that we can safely call it that.
In cases where the work is more complex, with both happy and sad outcomes, we refer to the ending as mixed as well. Your quintessential happy ending usually comes in works for children or families, genres where that's expected (like Romance), or anything aiming for a "feel good" style. While the work can be nuanced or simplistic, it's generally the latter.
Audiences might say such a work "had a happy ending, but it was so sad" or something like that. Sometimes the happy ending style doesn't fit, even if the characters accomplished their goals and/or saved the world.
add a comment |
A happy ending is about the emotional response the work as a whole evokes in the reader (or viewer).
A sad ending or any other type would be the same. It's the state you've reduced the audience to at the end.
There are no quantitative measures because no one's journey involves ticking boxes. Every story, no matter how simplified, will have good and bad in it. Taking your example of Cinderella, Disney and other mainstream versions are pretty much the definition of a movie with a happy ending. Yet even children can see the sad parts.
- Cinderella has to leave the home she grew up in, with her memories of her deceased parents. While most girls of that era expected that to happen upon marriage, in her case she can't go back and visit.
- She must give up on any hope of winning the love of her stepmother and stepsisters on her own merit (any positive gesture they make she will assume (usually correctly) comes from their motivation to please her now that she is a princess destined to be their Queen).
- In some versions (not Disney), the stepsisters are badly mutilated (by their own choice, but it's still sad and awful). In Disney's version, their end may be unsatisfying because they're shown up but not punished for their and their mother's wicked deeds.
- The cat dies. He may have been stuck up and naughty, but murder (arranging for him to fall to his death) is a pretty gruesome end.
Yet we the viewers don't think about any of that. At the forefront is the joy of Cinderella "winning" and finding her true love and getting the hell out of there. Our joy is what makes it a happy ending. Not every viewer will feel the same way, but enough will consider this ending happy that we can safely call it that.
In cases where the work is more complex, with both happy and sad outcomes, we refer to the ending as mixed as well. Your quintessential happy ending usually comes in works for children or families, genres where that's expected (like Romance), or anything aiming for a "feel good" style. While the work can be nuanced or simplistic, it's generally the latter.
Audiences might say such a work "had a happy ending, but it was so sad" or something like that. Sometimes the happy ending style doesn't fit, even if the characters accomplished their goals and/or saved the world.
add a comment |
A happy ending is about the emotional response the work as a whole evokes in the reader (or viewer).
A sad ending or any other type would be the same. It's the state you've reduced the audience to at the end.
There are no quantitative measures because no one's journey involves ticking boxes. Every story, no matter how simplified, will have good and bad in it. Taking your example of Cinderella, Disney and other mainstream versions are pretty much the definition of a movie with a happy ending. Yet even children can see the sad parts.
- Cinderella has to leave the home she grew up in, with her memories of her deceased parents. While most girls of that era expected that to happen upon marriage, in her case she can't go back and visit.
- She must give up on any hope of winning the love of her stepmother and stepsisters on her own merit (any positive gesture they make she will assume (usually correctly) comes from their motivation to please her now that she is a princess destined to be their Queen).
- In some versions (not Disney), the stepsisters are badly mutilated (by their own choice, but it's still sad and awful). In Disney's version, their end may be unsatisfying because they're shown up but not punished for their and their mother's wicked deeds.
- The cat dies. He may have been stuck up and naughty, but murder (arranging for him to fall to his death) is a pretty gruesome end.
Yet we the viewers don't think about any of that. At the forefront is the joy of Cinderella "winning" and finding her true love and getting the hell out of there. Our joy is what makes it a happy ending. Not every viewer will feel the same way, but enough will consider this ending happy that we can safely call it that.
In cases where the work is more complex, with both happy and sad outcomes, we refer to the ending as mixed as well. Your quintessential happy ending usually comes in works for children or families, genres where that's expected (like Romance), or anything aiming for a "feel good" style. While the work can be nuanced or simplistic, it's generally the latter.
Audiences might say such a work "had a happy ending, but it was so sad" or something like that. Sometimes the happy ending style doesn't fit, even if the characters accomplished their goals and/or saved the world.
A happy ending is about the emotional response the work as a whole evokes in the reader (or viewer).
A sad ending or any other type would be the same. It's the state you've reduced the audience to at the end.
There are no quantitative measures because no one's journey involves ticking boxes. Every story, no matter how simplified, will have good and bad in it. Taking your example of Cinderella, Disney and other mainstream versions are pretty much the definition of a movie with a happy ending. Yet even children can see the sad parts.
- Cinderella has to leave the home she grew up in, with her memories of her deceased parents. While most girls of that era expected that to happen upon marriage, in her case she can't go back and visit.
- She must give up on any hope of winning the love of her stepmother and stepsisters on her own merit (any positive gesture they make she will assume (usually correctly) comes from their motivation to please her now that she is a princess destined to be their Queen).
- In some versions (not Disney), the stepsisters are badly mutilated (by their own choice, but it's still sad and awful). In Disney's version, their end may be unsatisfying because they're shown up but not punished for their and their mother's wicked deeds.
- The cat dies. He may have been stuck up and naughty, but murder (arranging for him to fall to his death) is a pretty gruesome end.
Yet we the viewers don't think about any of that. At the forefront is the joy of Cinderella "winning" and finding her true love and getting the hell out of there. Our joy is what makes it a happy ending. Not every viewer will feel the same way, but enough will consider this ending happy that we can safely call it that.
In cases where the work is more complex, with both happy and sad outcomes, we refer to the ending as mixed as well. Your quintessential happy ending usually comes in works for children or families, genres where that's expected (like Romance), or anything aiming for a "feel good" style. While the work can be nuanced or simplistic, it's generally the latter.
Audiences might say such a work "had a happy ending, but it was so sad" or something like that. Sometimes the happy ending style doesn't fit, even if the characters accomplished their goals and/or saved the world.
answered 7 hours ago
Cyn♦Cyn
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29.8k3 gold badges67 silver badges132 bronze badges
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I'm by no means an expert, so take this answer as opinion. But here's my take all the same.
The way I view this is: what does the ending achieve?
If in the case of Cinderella she marries the prince, has the life she deserves (since she was the 'true heiress' of her father's land and titles), but she's a lesbian? This isn't a happy ending, but merely not a tragedy. Conversely, if Cinderella is a lesbian and simply gets out from under the oppressive step mother and step sisters? This could also be a happy ending, while not giving her the ticket to easy street.
So, I would argue that a 'happily ever after', or 'happy for now' is more a personal journey for the main character. If their journey is to escape poverty and the story ends with them getting a job that would support their lifestyle (meagrely or comfortably), would be a happy ending.
However, if the journey is to not starve and they wind up in prison, where they have a roof over their head and three square meals a day? They aren't starving, but calling it 'happy' is debatable at best.
From the reader's perspective, I would argue that the HEA/HFN ending is the one that makes them think the main character is going to be okay. Maybe not the lottery ticket they hoped for, but they can close the book secure in the knowledge the main character is either on the road to their promised land, or already in customs being screened before being allowed in.
As long as it's earned in the eyes of the reader and/or story. Whether from a narrative standpoint (they survived the war and deserve some peace like Frodo), from a character development standpoint (they grew past their defining character flaw that they've struggled with throughout the story), or from an optimistic 'I wish you the best' standpoint (like an underdog story where the reader wants them to become the champion of that otherwise pointless tournament).
add a comment |
I'm by no means an expert, so take this answer as opinion. But here's my take all the same.
The way I view this is: what does the ending achieve?
If in the case of Cinderella she marries the prince, has the life she deserves (since she was the 'true heiress' of her father's land and titles), but she's a lesbian? This isn't a happy ending, but merely not a tragedy. Conversely, if Cinderella is a lesbian and simply gets out from under the oppressive step mother and step sisters? This could also be a happy ending, while not giving her the ticket to easy street.
So, I would argue that a 'happily ever after', or 'happy for now' is more a personal journey for the main character. If their journey is to escape poverty and the story ends with them getting a job that would support their lifestyle (meagrely or comfortably), would be a happy ending.
However, if the journey is to not starve and they wind up in prison, where they have a roof over their head and three square meals a day? They aren't starving, but calling it 'happy' is debatable at best.
From the reader's perspective, I would argue that the HEA/HFN ending is the one that makes them think the main character is going to be okay. Maybe not the lottery ticket they hoped for, but they can close the book secure in the knowledge the main character is either on the road to their promised land, or already in customs being screened before being allowed in.
As long as it's earned in the eyes of the reader and/or story. Whether from a narrative standpoint (they survived the war and deserve some peace like Frodo), from a character development standpoint (they grew past their defining character flaw that they've struggled with throughout the story), or from an optimistic 'I wish you the best' standpoint (like an underdog story where the reader wants them to become the champion of that otherwise pointless tournament).
add a comment |
I'm by no means an expert, so take this answer as opinion. But here's my take all the same.
The way I view this is: what does the ending achieve?
If in the case of Cinderella she marries the prince, has the life she deserves (since she was the 'true heiress' of her father's land and titles), but she's a lesbian? This isn't a happy ending, but merely not a tragedy. Conversely, if Cinderella is a lesbian and simply gets out from under the oppressive step mother and step sisters? This could also be a happy ending, while not giving her the ticket to easy street.
So, I would argue that a 'happily ever after', or 'happy for now' is more a personal journey for the main character. If their journey is to escape poverty and the story ends with them getting a job that would support their lifestyle (meagrely or comfortably), would be a happy ending.
However, if the journey is to not starve and they wind up in prison, where they have a roof over their head and three square meals a day? They aren't starving, but calling it 'happy' is debatable at best.
From the reader's perspective, I would argue that the HEA/HFN ending is the one that makes them think the main character is going to be okay. Maybe not the lottery ticket they hoped for, but they can close the book secure in the knowledge the main character is either on the road to their promised land, or already in customs being screened before being allowed in.
As long as it's earned in the eyes of the reader and/or story. Whether from a narrative standpoint (they survived the war and deserve some peace like Frodo), from a character development standpoint (they grew past their defining character flaw that they've struggled with throughout the story), or from an optimistic 'I wish you the best' standpoint (like an underdog story where the reader wants them to become the champion of that otherwise pointless tournament).
I'm by no means an expert, so take this answer as opinion. But here's my take all the same.
The way I view this is: what does the ending achieve?
If in the case of Cinderella she marries the prince, has the life she deserves (since she was the 'true heiress' of her father's land and titles), but she's a lesbian? This isn't a happy ending, but merely not a tragedy. Conversely, if Cinderella is a lesbian and simply gets out from under the oppressive step mother and step sisters? This could also be a happy ending, while not giving her the ticket to easy street.
So, I would argue that a 'happily ever after', or 'happy for now' is more a personal journey for the main character. If their journey is to escape poverty and the story ends with them getting a job that would support their lifestyle (meagrely or comfortably), would be a happy ending.
However, if the journey is to not starve and they wind up in prison, where they have a roof over their head and three square meals a day? They aren't starving, but calling it 'happy' is debatable at best.
From the reader's perspective, I would argue that the HEA/HFN ending is the one that makes them think the main character is going to be okay. Maybe not the lottery ticket they hoped for, but they can close the book secure in the knowledge the main character is either on the road to their promised land, or already in customs being screened before being allowed in.
As long as it's earned in the eyes of the reader and/or story. Whether from a narrative standpoint (they survived the war and deserve some peace like Frodo), from a character development standpoint (they grew past their defining character flaw that they've struggled with throughout the story), or from an optimistic 'I wish you the best' standpoint (like an underdog story where the reader wants them to become the champion of that otherwise pointless tournament).
answered 7 hours ago
Fayth85Fayth85
5,1738 silver badges27 bronze badges
5,1738 silver badges27 bronze badges
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I think the assertion that Amadeus had a happy ending is highly debatable.
I think most people would consider that a tragedy. The life of a genius cut short and ruined by emotional immaturity and hubris.
Frodo had a happy ending. He stopped apocalypse, saved his friends, his people and the world, and then gained admission to the Undying land.
Tony Stark in End Game is a happy ending. He completed his journey with a heroic sacrifice. Though it was kind of an unnecessary sacrifice, as Magical Marvel should have been able to snap her finger and save the universe herself, without dying.
Cinderella's is not just a happy ending, it is a fairy tale ending (a specific type of happy ending)
I think a happy ending is an ending with where the character grew and the quest fulfilled. Amadeus had genius. But he didn't grow, and his life was cut short and the world was poorer for it.
Death itself does not an unhappy ending make. Everyone dies in the end, even elves and cinderella
1
The OP is referring here to Amadeus the Writing.SE user, and not Amadeus the composer in a movie of the same name.
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
@Cyn: most of his other references are to movies.. never watched Amadeus, the play, though one would imagine Mozart died young with promises unfulfilled in that one as well.
– dolphin_of_france
7 hours ago
Please note the intro "in this answer...".
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france In the movie "Amadeus" the Mozart character does not have a happy ending, but in a sense using Salieri as a villainous POV character (he was not IRL), Amadeus the childish genius is indeed triumphant, even in death. You will notice at the start, Salieri, near death, plays for a priest his own greatest hits: None of which are recognized. Then he pecks out "Ein Klein Nachtmusik" (A little night music) and the priest LOVES it, remembers it, praises him for writing it -- And Salieri tells him it was Mozart. Salieri the villain is miserable and forgotten, but Mozart is immortal.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france I will disagree. It makes no difference what Mozart thought or what happened IRL, the happy ending is in the mind of the audience. They know Salieri was the villain even if Mozart thought him a friend, they know Salieri failed in his jealous quest to silence Mozart. As a story it is contained in the film, it is a semi-fictional biopic. Do we ask what "really happened" to Jason Bourne? What "really happened" to Mozart is immaterial, the ending is in the picture. Comments here are not for debate.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
I think the assertion that Amadeus had a happy ending is highly debatable.
I think most people would consider that a tragedy. The life of a genius cut short and ruined by emotional immaturity and hubris.
Frodo had a happy ending. He stopped apocalypse, saved his friends, his people and the world, and then gained admission to the Undying land.
Tony Stark in End Game is a happy ending. He completed his journey with a heroic sacrifice. Though it was kind of an unnecessary sacrifice, as Magical Marvel should have been able to snap her finger and save the universe herself, without dying.
Cinderella's is not just a happy ending, it is a fairy tale ending (a specific type of happy ending)
I think a happy ending is an ending with where the character grew and the quest fulfilled. Amadeus had genius. But he didn't grow, and his life was cut short and the world was poorer for it.
Death itself does not an unhappy ending make. Everyone dies in the end, even elves and cinderella
1
The OP is referring here to Amadeus the Writing.SE user, and not Amadeus the composer in a movie of the same name.
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
@Cyn: most of his other references are to movies.. never watched Amadeus, the play, though one would imagine Mozart died young with promises unfulfilled in that one as well.
– dolphin_of_france
7 hours ago
Please note the intro "in this answer...".
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france In the movie "Amadeus" the Mozart character does not have a happy ending, but in a sense using Salieri as a villainous POV character (he was not IRL), Amadeus the childish genius is indeed triumphant, even in death. You will notice at the start, Salieri, near death, plays for a priest his own greatest hits: None of which are recognized. Then he pecks out "Ein Klein Nachtmusik" (A little night music) and the priest LOVES it, remembers it, praises him for writing it -- And Salieri tells him it was Mozart. Salieri the villain is miserable and forgotten, but Mozart is immortal.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france I will disagree. It makes no difference what Mozart thought or what happened IRL, the happy ending is in the mind of the audience. They know Salieri was the villain even if Mozart thought him a friend, they know Salieri failed in his jealous quest to silence Mozart. As a story it is contained in the film, it is a semi-fictional biopic. Do we ask what "really happened" to Jason Bourne? What "really happened" to Mozart is immaterial, the ending is in the picture. Comments here are not for debate.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
I think the assertion that Amadeus had a happy ending is highly debatable.
I think most people would consider that a tragedy. The life of a genius cut short and ruined by emotional immaturity and hubris.
Frodo had a happy ending. He stopped apocalypse, saved his friends, his people and the world, and then gained admission to the Undying land.
Tony Stark in End Game is a happy ending. He completed his journey with a heroic sacrifice. Though it was kind of an unnecessary sacrifice, as Magical Marvel should have been able to snap her finger and save the universe herself, without dying.
Cinderella's is not just a happy ending, it is a fairy tale ending (a specific type of happy ending)
I think a happy ending is an ending with where the character grew and the quest fulfilled. Amadeus had genius. But he didn't grow, and his life was cut short and the world was poorer for it.
Death itself does not an unhappy ending make. Everyone dies in the end, even elves and cinderella
I think the assertion that Amadeus had a happy ending is highly debatable.
I think most people would consider that a tragedy. The life of a genius cut short and ruined by emotional immaturity and hubris.
Frodo had a happy ending. He stopped apocalypse, saved his friends, his people and the world, and then gained admission to the Undying land.
Tony Stark in End Game is a happy ending. He completed his journey with a heroic sacrifice. Though it was kind of an unnecessary sacrifice, as Magical Marvel should have been able to snap her finger and save the universe herself, without dying.
Cinderella's is not just a happy ending, it is a fairy tale ending (a specific type of happy ending)
I think a happy ending is an ending with where the character grew and the quest fulfilled. Amadeus had genius. But he didn't grow, and his life was cut short and the world was poorer for it.
Death itself does not an unhappy ending make. Everyone dies in the end, even elves and cinderella
answered 7 hours ago
dolphin_of_francedolphin_of_france
4425 bronze badges
4425 bronze badges
1
The OP is referring here to Amadeus the Writing.SE user, and not Amadeus the composer in a movie of the same name.
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
@Cyn: most of his other references are to movies.. never watched Amadeus, the play, though one would imagine Mozart died young with promises unfulfilled in that one as well.
– dolphin_of_france
7 hours ago
Please note the intro "in this answer...".
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france In the movie "Amadeus" the Mozart character does not have a happy ending, but in a sense using Salieri as a villainous POV character (he was not IRL), Amadeus the childish genius is indeed triumphant, even in death. You will notice at the start, Salieri, near death, plays for a priest his own greatest hits: None of which are recognized. Then he pecks out "Ein Klein Nachtmusik" (A little night music) and the priest LOVES it, remembers it, praises him for writing it -- And Salieri tells him it was Mozart. Salieri the villain is miserable and forgotten, but Mozart is immortal.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france I will disagree. It makes no difference what Mozart thought or what happened IRL, the happy ending is in the mind of the audience. They know Salieri was the villain even if Mozart thought him a friend, they know Salieri failed in his jealous quest to silence Mozart. As a story it is contained in the film, it is a semi-fictional biopic. Do we ask what "really happened" to Jason Bourne? What "really happened" to Mozart is immaterial, the ending is in the picture. Comments here are not for debate.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
1
The OP is referring here to Amadeus the Writing.SE user, and not Amadeus the composer in a movie of the same name.
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
@Cyn: most of his other references are to movies.. never watched Amadeus, the play, though one would imagine Mozart died young with promises unfulfilled in that one as well.
– dolphin_of_france
7 hours ago
Please note the intro "in this answer...".
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france In the movie "Amadeus" the Mozart character does not have a happy ending, but in a sense using Salieri as a villainous POV character (he was not IRL), Amadeus the childish genius is indeed triumphant, even in death. You will notice at the start, Salieri, near death, plays for a priest his own greatest hits: None of which are recognized. Then he pecks out "Ein Klein Nachtmusik" (A little night music) and the priest LOVES it, remembers it, praises him for writing it -- And Salieri tells him it was Mozart. Salieri the villain is miserable and forgotten, but Mozart is immortal.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago
1
@dolphin_of_france I will disagree. It makes no difference what Mozart thought or what happened IRL, the happy ending is in the mind of the audience. They know Salieri was the villain even if Mozart thought him a friend, they know Salieri failed in his jealous quest to silence Mozart. As a story it is contained in the film, it is a semi-fictional biopic. Do we ask what "really happened" to Jason Bourne? What "really happened" to Mozart is immaterial, the ending is in the picture. Comments here are not for debate.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago
1
1
The OP is referring here to Amadeus the Writing.SE user, and not Amadeus the composer in a movie of the same name.
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
The OP is referring here to Amadeus the Writing.SE user, and not Amadeus the composer in a movie of the same name.
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
@Cyn: most of his other references are to movies.. never watched Amadeus, the play, though one would imagine Mozart died young with promises unfulfilled in that one as well.
– dolphin_of_france
7 hours ago
@Cyn: most of his other references are to movies.. never watched Amadeus, the play, though one would imagine Mozart died young with promises unfulfilled in that one as well.
– dolphin_of_france
7 hours ago
Please note the intro "in this answer...".
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
Please note the intro "in this answer...".
– Cyn♦
7 hours ago
1
1
@dolphin_of_france In the movie "Amadeus" the Mozart character does not have a happy ending, but in a sense using Salieri as a villainous POV character (he was not IRL), Amadeus the childish genius is indeed triumphant, even in death. You will notice at the start, Salieri, near death, plays for a priest his own greatest hits: None of which are recognized. Then he pecks out "Ein Klein Nachtmusik" (A little night music) and the priest LOVES it, remembers it, praises him for writing it -- And Salieri tells him it was Mozart. Salieri the villain is miserable and forgotten, but Mozart is immortal.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago
@dolphin_of_france In the movie "Amadeus" the Mozart character does not have a happy ending, but in a sense using Salieri as a villainous POV character (he was not IRL), Amadeus the childish genius is indeed triumphant, even in death. You will notice at the start, Salieri, near death, plays for a priest his own greatest hits: None of which are recognized. Then he pecks out "Ein Klein Nachtmusik" (A little night music) and the priest LOVES it, remembers it, praises him for writing it -- And Salieri tells him it was Mozart. Salieri the villain is miserable and forgotten, but Mozart is immortal.
– Amadeus
6 hours ago
1
1
@dolphin_of_france I will disagree. It makes no difference what Mozart thought or what happened IRL, the happy ending is in the mind of the audience. They know Salieri was the villain even if Mozart thought him a friend, they know Salieri failed in his jealous quest to silence Mozart. As a story it is contained in the film, it is a semi-fictional biopic. Do we ask what "really happened" to Jason Bourne? What "really happened" to Mozart is immaterial, the ending is in the picture. Comments here are not for debate.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago
@dolphin_of_france I will disagree. It makes no difference what Mozart thought or what happened IRL, the happy ending is in the mind of the audience. They know Salieri was the villain even if Mozart thought him a friend, they know Salieri failed in his jealous quest to silence Mozart. As a story it is contained in the film, it is a semi-fictional biopic. Do we ask what "really happened" to Jason Bourne? What "really happened" to Mozart is immaterial, the ending is in the picture. Comments here are not for debate.
– Amadeus
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
The pragmatic "Hollywood" answer is a film has a happy ending if it leaves room for a sequel. Although Tony Stark dies, they did have sequels with him, and in this particular case, another Iron Man could arise (just like when 007 gets tired), or a prequel, etc.
I get that "satisfied" is a squishy term, but probably because it can depend on the genre. A Romantic Comedy that doesn't end with a couple together is not a happy ending, a spy thriller that doesn't end with a couple together can be happy, if they stopped the villain.
Bruce Willis in Armageddon is a borderline example: There is no real room for a sequel or prequel, but it is a "happy ending" because he dies saving the world, and more specifically his crew of friends, and even more specifically, above all, his daughter, on screen to the moment he triggers the nuclear bomb he's sitting on.
We accept this death because (a) he chose it, and (b) he prevails and saves his child, along with eight billion other people. He did not fail. The villain (the asteroid) is irrecoverably dead.
In the Lord of the Rings, the villain is defeated. Frodo is not better off, but the world is. Like Willis in Armageddon, his sacrifice is appreciated. And in his case, Hollywood could argue there is still room for a sequel, many adventures could be told in Middle Earth with other characters.
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances a happy ending?
Almost, but it depends on the audience's expectations. A Romantic comedy that ends in the death of one of the Leads is not a happy ending, forget moral triumph. In a comedy, there can be deaths, but I can't think of an instance in which the MC dies. You have to leave 'em laughing, or at least grinning.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
That would be a redemption drama; and that could absolutely be a happy ending. Somebody did something unforgiveable, especially to her, but when the time and opportunity came she found the courage to balance the scales. Despite the toll she took on humanity, in the end her life did us more good than harm, because she sacrificed.
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
No. Using your last example, or Armageddon, I think the Happy Ending is that in some way, the world is collectively better off that the MC was there. Even if that is for just one person, like in a romantic comedy. The world is a better place for two people in love, than not in love; no moral triumph needed.
As for publishing and Hollywood, I think the "sequel", "prequel", or "new adventure" angle (e.g. 007, Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes is nearly always a new adventure, not a sequel or prequel) is definitely a part of their thinking. One-off films are produced and can be blockbusters (e.g. The Sixth Sense), so just "story power" is a part of it, but if there is the potential for a follow up with the character(s) it does makes the work more attractive. And "happy ending" means the audience feels good about the MC, not angry at the outcome.
add a comment |
The pragmatic "Hollywood" answer is a film has a happy ending if it leaves room for a sequel. Although Tony Stark dies, they did have sequels with him, and in this particular case, another Iron Man could arise (just like when 007 gets tired), or a prequel, etc.
I get that "satisfied" is a squishy term, but probably because it can depend on the genre. A Romantic Comedy that doesn't end with a couple together is not a happy ending, a spy thriller that doesn't end with a couple together can be happy, if they stopped the villain.
Bruce Willis in Armageddon is a borderline example: There is no real room for a sequel or prequel, but it is a "happy ending" because he dies saving the world, and more specifically his crew of friends, and even more specifically, above all, his daughter, on screen to the moment he triggers the nuclear bomb he's sitting on.
We accept this death because (a) he chose it, and (b) he prevails and saves his child, along with eight billion other people. He did not fail. The villain (the asteroid) is irrecoverably dead.
In the Lord of the Rings, the villain is defeated. Frodo is not better off, but the world is. Like Willis in Armageddon, his sacrifice is appreciated. And in his case, Hollywood could argue there is still room for a sequel, many adventures could be told in Middle Earth with other characters.
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances a happy ending?
Almost, but it depends on the audience's expectations. A Romantic comedy that ends in the death of one of the Leads is not a happy ending, forget moral triumph. In a comedy, there can be deaths, but I can't think of an instance in which the MC dies. You have to leave 'em laughing, or at least grinning.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
That would be a redemption drama; and that could absolutely be a happy ending. Somebody did something unforgiveable, especially to her, but when the time and opportunity came she found the courage to balance the scales. Despite the toll she took on humanity, in the end her life did us more good than harm, because she sacrificed.
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
No. Using your last example, or Armageddon, I think the Happy Ending is that in some way, the world is collectively better off that the MC was there. Even if that is for just one person, like in a romantic comedy. The world is a better place for two people in love, than not in love; no moral triumph needed.
As for publishing and Hollywood, I think the "sequel", "prequel", or "new adventure" angle (e.g. 007, Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes is nearly always a new adventure, not a sequel or prequel) is definitely a part of their thinking. One-off films are produced and can be blockbusters (e.g. The Sixth Sense), so just "story power" is a part of it, but if there is the potential for a follow up with the character(s) it does makes the work more attractive. And "happy ending" means the audience feels good about the MC, not angry at the outcome.
add a comment |
The pragmatic "Hollywood" answer is a film has a happy ending if it leaves room for a sequel. Although Tony Stark dies, they did have sequels with him, and in this particular case, another Iron Man could arise (just like when 007 gets tired), or a prequel, etc.
I get that "satisfied" is a squishy term, but probably because it can depend on the genre. A Romantic Comedy that doesn't end with a couple together is not a happy ending, a spy thriller that doesn't end with a couple together can be happy, if they stopped the villain.
Bruce Willis in Armageddon is a borderline example: There is no real room for a sequel or prequel, but it is a "happy ending" because he dies saving the world, and more specifically his crew of friends, and even more specifically, above all, his daughter, on screen to the moment he triggers the nuclear bomb he's sitting on.
We accept this death because (a) he chose it, and (b) he prevails and saves his child, along with eight billion other people. He did not fail. The villain (the asteroid) is irrecoverably dead.
In the Lord of the Rings, the villain is defeated. Frodo is not better off, but the world is. Like Willis in Armageddon, his sacrifice is appreciated. And in his case, Hollywood could argue there is still room for a sequel, many adventures could be told in Middle Earth with other characters.
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances a happy ending?
Almost, but it depends on the audience's expectations. A Romantic comedy that ends in the death of one of the Leads is not a happy ending, forget moral triumph. In a comedy, there can be deaths, but I can't think of an instance in which the MC dies. You have to leave 'em laughing, or at least grinning.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
That would be a redemption drama; and that could absolutely be a happy ending. Somebody did something unforgiveable, especially to her, but when the time and opportunity came she found the courage to balance the scales. Despite the toll she took on humanity, in the end her life did us more good than harm, because she sacrificed.
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
No. Using your last example, or Armageddon, I think the Happy Ending is that in some way, the world is collectively better off that the MC was there. Even if that is for just one person, like in a romantic comedy. The world is a better place for two people in love, than not in love; no moral triumph needed.
As for publishing and Hollywood, I think the "sequel", "prequel", or "new adventure" angle (e.g. 007, Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes is nearly always a new adventure, not a sequel or prequel) is definitely a part of their thinking. One-off films are produced and can be blockbusters (e.g. The Sixth Sense), so just "story power" is a part of it, but if there is the potential for a follow up with the character(s) it does makes the work more attractive. And "happy ending" means the audience feels good about the MC, not angry at the outcome.
The pragmatic "Hollywood" answer is a film has a happy ending if it leaves room for a sequel. Although Tony Stark dies, they did have sequels with him, and in this particular case, another Iron Man could arise (just like when 007 gets tired), or a prequel, etc.
I get that "satisfied" is a squishy term, but probably because it can depend on the genre. A Romantic Comedy that doesn't end with a couple together is not a happy ending, a spy thriller that doesn't end with a couple together can be happy, if they stopped the villain.
Bruce Willis in Armageddon is a borderline example: There is no real room for a sequel or prequel, but it is a "happy ending" because he dies saving the world, and more specifically his crew of friends, and even more specifically, above all, his daughter, on screen to the moment he triggers the nuclear bomb he's sitting on.
We accept this death because (a) he chose it, and (b) he prevails and saves his child, along with eight billion other people. He did not fail. The villain (the asteroid) is irrecoverably dead.
In the Lord of the Rings, the villain is defeated. Frodo is not better off, but the world is. Like Willis in Armageddon, his sacrifice is appreciated. And in his case, Hollywood could argue there is still room for a sequel, many adventures could be told in Middle Earth with other characters.
Is any ending in which the protagonist experiences a moral triumph, regardless of their physical or emotional circumstances a happy ending?
Almost, but it depends on the audience's expectations. A Romantic comedy that ends in the death of one of the Leads is not a happy ending, forget moral triumph. In a comedy, there can be deaths, but I can't think of an instance in which the MC dies. You have to leave 'em laughing, or at least grinning.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
That would be a redemption drama; and that could absolutely be a happy ending. Somebody did something unforgiveable, especially to her, but when the time and opportunity came she found the courage to balance the scales. Despite the toll she took on humanity, in the end her life did us more good than harm, because she sacrificed.
Or do we need it to be "happily ever after"?
No. Using your last example, or Armageddon, I think the Happy Ending is that in some way, the world is collectively better off that the MC was there. Even if that is for just one person, like in a romantic comedy. The world is a better place for two people in love, than not in love; no moral triumph needed.
As for publishing and Hollywood, I think the "sequel", "prequel", or "new adventure" angle (e.g. 007, Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes is nearly always a new adventure, not a sequel or prequel) is definitely a part of their thinking. One-off films are produced and can be blockbusters (e.g. The Sixth Sense), so just "story power" is a part of it, but if there is the potential for a follow up with the character(s) it does makes the work more attractive. And "happy ending" means the audience feels good about the MC, not angry at the outcome.
answered 7 hours ago
AmadeusAmadeus
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The protagonist(s) win/s, the antagonist(s) is/are defeated (even temporarily), and the reader can imagine the protagonists continuing on to other adventures, or with their lives, in some positive way.
- I would argue that Endgame is a mixed ending, not a happy one,
specifically because not all the protagonists win and get to continue
on (Tony, Natasha, Vision, Loki, Heimdall).
Avengers has a happy ending.
Armageddon is mixed because Bruce Willis's character dies, even
if his daughter is safe.- LOTR as a trilogy — you know, I was going to say it has a happy ending, even if it has some bittersweet notes, because the elves and Ring-Bearers (plus Legolas and Gimli) who depart go on to the West and become immortal. (Arwen and Aragorn, long-lived but mortal,
are bittersweet: they do go on with their lives, but their lives are
not infinite.) But we lose Boromir and Thèoden. I guess that could be argued either way.
The Hobbit is more mixed because so many of the dwarves die.
Cinderella is a fairy tale and does not have to adhere to modern narrative structures.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
I wouldn't call that a happy ending if her sacrifice ends in her death. It may be satisfying, karmic, or redemptive, but the character herself doesn't get to continue on.
add a comment |
The protagonist(s) win/s, the antagonist(s) is/are defeated (even temporarily), and the reader can imagine the protagonists continuing on to other adventures, or with their lives, in some positive way.
- I would argue that Endgame is a mixed ending, not a happy one,
specifically because not all the protagonists win and get to continue
on (Tony, Natasha, Vision, Loki, Heimdall).
Avengers has a happy ending.
Armageddon is mixed because Bruce Willis's character dies, even
if his daughter is safe.- LOTR as a trilogy — you know, I was going to say it has a happy ending, even if it has some bittersweet notes, because the elves and Ring-Bearers (plus Legolas and Gimli) who depart go on to the West and become immortal. (Arwen and Aragorn, long-lived but mortal,
are bittersweet: they do go on with their lives, but their lives are
not infinite.) But we lose Boromir and Thèoden. I guess that could be argued either way.
The Hobbit is more mixed because so many of the dwarves die.
Cinderella is a fairy tale and does not have to adhere to modern narrative structures.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
I wouldn't call that a happy ending if her sacrifice ends in her death. It may be satisfying, karmic, or redemptive, but the character herself doesn't get to continue on.
add a comment |
The protagonist(s) win/s, the antagonist(s) is/are defeated (even temporarily), and the reader can imagine the protagonists continuing on to other adventures, or with their lives, in some positive way.
- I would argue that Endgame is a mixed ending, not a happy one,
specifically because not all the protagonists win and get to continue
on (Tony, Natasha, Vision, Loki, Heimdall).
Avengers has a happy ending.
Armageddon is mixed because Bruce Willis's character dies, even
if his daughter is safe.- LOTR as a trilogy — you know, I was going to say it has a happy ending, even if it has some bittersweet notes, because the elves and Ring-Bearers (plus Legolas and Gimli) who depart go on to the West and become immortal. (Arwen and Aragorn, long-lived but mortal,
are bittersweet: they do go on with their lives, but their lives are
not infinite.) But we lose Boromir and Thèoden. I guess that could be argued either way.
The Hobbit is more mixed because so many of the dwarves die.
Cinderella is a fairy tale and does not have to adhere to modern narrative structures.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
I wouldn't call that a happy ending if her sacrifice ends in her death. It may be satisfying, karmic, or redemptive, but the character herself doesn't get to continue on.
The protagonist(s) win/s, the antagonist(s) is/are defeated (even temporarily), and the reader can imagine the protagonists continuing on to other adventures, or with their lives, in some positive way.
- I would argue that Endgame is a mixed ending, not a happy one,
specifically because not all the protagonists win and get to continue
on (Tony, Natasha, Vision, Loki, Heimdall).
Avengers has a happy ending.
Armageddon is mixed because Bruce Willis's character dies, even
if his daughter is safe.- LOTR as a trilogy — you know, I was going to say it has a happy ending, even if it has some bittersweet notes, because the elves and Ring-Bearers (plus Legolas and Gimli) who depart go on to the West and become immortal. (Arwen and Aragorn, long-lived but mortal,
are bittersweet: they do go on with their lives, but their lives are
not infinite.) But we lose Boromir and Thèoden. I guess that could be argued either way.
The Hobbit is more mixed because so many of the dwarves die.
Cinderella is a fairy tale and does not have to adhere to modern narrative structures.
Given a story in which the heroine does something very wrong which causes several deaths, but then makes a sacrifice that prevents something even worse from happening. Would you say that that is a happy ending? (This one is personal for me.)
I wouldn't call that a happy ending if her sacrifice ends in her death. It may be satisfying, karmic, or redemptive, but the character herself doesn't get to continue on.
answered 6 hours ago
Lauren IpsumLauren Ipsum
70.5k7 gold badges107 silver badges238 bronze badges
70.5k7 gold badges107 silver badges238 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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