How does Berkeley justify existence of other minds?In which text does Berkeley develop his philosophy of subjective idealism?What are the rebuttals (if any) to Berkeley's dismissal of “primary qualities”?Does anyone have a good answer to or deconstruction of the 'problem of other minds'?What is Wittgenstein's “criterial solution” to the problem of other minds?Why do current academics refuse to acknolwedge idealism as viable?How did George Berkeley justify his disbelief in matter?For Berkeley, how do subjective experiences exist?Does idealism allow other minds?

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How does Berkeley justify existence of other minds?


In which text does Berkeley develop his philosophy of subjective idealism?What are the rebuttals (if any) to Berkeley's dismissal of “primary qualities”?Does anyone have a good answer to or deconstruction of the 'problem of other minds'?What is Wittgenstein's “criterial solution” to the problem of other minds?Why do current academics refuse to acknolwedge idealism as viable?How did George Berkeley justify his disbelief in matter?For Berkeley, how do subjective experiences exist?Does idealism allow other minds?






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11

















I don't understand how Berkeley justifies existence of other minds in his system. Is it something that he takes for granted? Because, his position seems very close to that of a solipsist except for acknowledgement of other minds.



You'll perceive human bodies, which are physical objects(which in turn are nothing but "bundles of ideas") but then how can you say that there is this thing called mind that sits inside these bodies - which are bundles of ideas?



Does berkeley acknowledge this problem in his work. how does he tackle the threat of reduction to solipsism?










share|improve this question























  • 1





    I don't think Berkeley is making a skeptical argument that we can't be sure matter exists separate from our perceptions of it (analogous to skepticism about other minds), rather the main argument seems to be more that we cannot really conceive what non-mental properties would even be like. So there'd be no equivalent reason to doubt the existence of other minds. And Berkeley assumes the world exists in God's mind (why it has stability/structure), with God's ideas of things/people being causally related to our own sense impressions of them.

    – Hypnosifl
    Oct 15 at 22:53











  • @Non-being. It is so easy, all minds see the same orderly, coherent dream in the same time.

    – salah
    Oct 15 at 23:21

















11

















I don't understand how Berkeley justifies existence of other minds in his system. Is it something that he takes for granted? Because, his position seems very close to that of a solipsist except for acknowledgement of other minds.



You'll perceive human bodies, which are physical objects(which in turn are nothing but "bundles of ideas") but then how can you say that there is this thing called mind that sits inside these bodies - which are bundles of ideas?



Does berkeley acknowledge this problem in his work. how does he tackle the threat of reduction to solipsism?










share|improve this question























  • 1





    I don't think Berkeley is making a skeptical argument that we can't be sure matter exists separate from our perceptions of it (analogous to skepticism about other minds), rather the main argument seems to be more that we cannot really conceive what non-mental properties would even be like. So there'd be no equivalent reason to doubt the existence of other minds. And Berkeley assumes the world exists in God's mind (why it has stability/structure), with God's ideas of things/people being causally related to our own sense impressions of them.

    – Hypnosifl
    Oct 15 at 22:53











  • @Non-being. It is so easy, all minds see the same orderly, coherent dream in the same time.

    – salah
    Oct 15 at 23:21













11












11








11


3






I don't understand how Berkeley justifies existence of other minds in his system. Is it something that he takes for granted? Because, his position seems very close to that of a solipsist except for acknowledgement of other minds.



You'll perceive human bodies, which are physical objects(which in turn are nothing but "bundles of ideas") but then how can you say that there is this thing called mind that sits inside these bodies - which are bundles of ideas?



Does berkeley acknowledge this problem in his work. how does he tackle the threat of reduction to solipsism?










share|improve this question

















I don't understand how Berkeley justifies existence of other minds in his system. Is it something that he takes for granted? Because, his position seems very close to that of a solipsist except for acknowledgement of other minds.



You'll perceive human bodies, which are physical objects(which in turn are nothing but "bundles of ideas") but then how can you say that there is this thing called mind that sits inside these bodies - which are bundles of ideas?



Does berkeley acknowledge this problem in his work. how does he tackle the threat of reduction to solipsism?







idealism solipsism berkeley






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edited Oct 15 at 23:00









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  • 1





    I don't think Berkeley is making a skeptical argument that we can't be sure matter exists separate from our perceptions of it (analogous to skepticism about other minds), rather the main argument seems to be more that we cannot really conceive what non-mental properties would even be like. So there'd be no equivalent reason to doubt the existence of other minds. And Berkeley assumes the world exists in God's mind (why it has stability/structure), with God's ideas of things/people being causally related to our own sense impressions of them.

    – Hypnosifl
    Oct 15 at 22:53











  • @Non-being. It is so easy, all minds see the same orderly, coherent dream in the same time.

    – salah
    Oct 15 at 23:21












  • 1





    I don't think Berkeley is making a skeptical argument that we can't be sure matter exists separate from our perceptions of it (analogous to skepticism about other minds), rather the main argument seems to be more that we cannot really conceive what non-mental properties would even be like. So there'd be no equivalent reason to doubt the existence of other minds. And Berkeley assumes the world exists in God's mind (why it has stability/structure), with God's ideas of things/people being causally related to our own sense impressions of them.

    – Hypnosifl
    Oct 15 at 22:53











  • @Non-being. It is so easy, all minds see the same orderly, coherent dream in the same time.

    – salah
    Oct 15 at 23:21







1




1





I don't think Berkeley is making a skeptical argument that we can't be sure matter exists separate from our perceptions of it (analogous to skepticism about other minds), rather the main argument seems to be more that we cannot really conceive what non-mental properties would even be like. So there'd be no equivalent reason to doubt the existence of other minds. And Berkeley assumes the world exists in God's mind (why it has stability/structure), with God's ideas of things/people being causally related to our own sense impressions of them.

– Hypnosifl
Oct 15 at 22:53





I don't think Berkeley is making a skeptical argument that we can't be sure matter exists separate from our perceptions of it (analogous to skepticism about other minds), rather the main argument seems to be more that we cannot really conceive what non-mental properties would even be like. So there'd be no equivalent reason to doubt the existence of other minds. And Berkeley assumes the world exists in God's mind (why it has stability/structure), with God's ideas of things/people being causally related to our own sense impressions of them.

– Hypnosifl
Oct 15 at 22:53













@Non-being. It is so easy, all minds see the same orderly, coherent dream in the same time.

– salah
Oct 15 at 23:21





@Non-being. It is so easy, all minds see the same orderly, coherent dream in the same time.

– salah
Oct 15 at 23:21










4 Answers
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10


















This issue is addressed in Berkeley's Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, especially 145 and 148, and there is some disagreement as to what the nature of his argument is. Some take it to be an argument by analogy: we see bodies and behaviors similar to our own out there, and infer that there is a mind behind it. Others point out that the analogy, if any, appears in Berkeley's conclusions rather than in his inference steps. Instead, we just infer "other spirits" from "their operations", some "collections of ideas" lead us to believe that there is a cause behind them, and that cause is a mind. If so, this is similar in spirit to the cosmological argument for the existence of God, where the existence of the first cause is first established, and then it is identified with God by (what we would now call) an inference to the best explanation. Indeed, when it comes to God's mind the cosmological argument is part of Berkeley's reasoning. For the analogy argument thesis see Urmson's book, and for its criticism, and defense of the causal argument see Falkenstein, Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds. Here are the source passages:




"From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my self, as effects or concomitant signs". [Principles 145]



"A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves, accompanying and represented by". [Principles 148]




The wording of Principles 145 is somewhat peculiar, especially from the point of view of the causal argument. The finite spirits only "accompany and concur in production" rather than "cause". It is an indication of the fact that for Berkeley God is the ultimate cause of all the commotion. In which case, their existence is not exactly inferred by best explanation to the cause. Berkeley has to deal with this also for the purposes of theodicy, for putting God too close to the causing would make him responsible for the resulting evil. In the Dialogues, Philonus explains:




"I have nowhere said that God is the only agent who produces all the motions in bodies. It is true, I have denied there are any other agents beside spirits: but this is very consistent with allowing to thinking rational beings, in the production of motions, the use of limited powers, ultimately indeed derived from God, but immediately under the direction of their own wills, which is sufficient to entitle them to all the guilt of their actions."




This turns theodicy into a peculiar argument for the existence of other minds (other than God's), if not for them God would have to be convicted of causing the apparent mayhem.






share|improve this answer



































    2


















    This issue is clarified by understanding Berkeley's living understanding of his project. Under the principle that ideas become ridiculous when separated from living interests.



    Berkeley's motivation is to show that reducing knowledge to the subhuman things is impossible. He repeatedly affirms that he is in favor of the common sense attitude, and repeatedly insists that "An Irish man can not attain to these truths," meaning the fantastic ideas of the Metaphysical or Philosophic Materialists who project the intellect into the things. Berkeley takes the side of nous, the higher part of the soul. He argues against episteme, mathematical calculative thinking. His motivation is to show that morality can be derived from the things by nous or reasonableness. God "speaks" to humans through these things. The whole motivation of his system is to say, one can not build up from the subhuman things, mathematically. Rather, one must admit the things higher than man, the moral principles.



    Therefore, one can see that he must, not merely admit grudgingly, but aver steadfastly, the reality of the human agent and the community of "persons."






    share|improve this answer



































      2


















      Berkeley and other minds - the basic problem



      The 'problem of other minds' confronts many philosophical theories for different reasons and with different responses. So how does it arise for Berkeley and what arguments does he deploy in connection with it ?



      A common approach to 'other minds' - to justify belief in or establish knowledge of their existence - is to use an argument from analogy as set out below. Berkeley's principal reliance seems in contrast to be a causal argument.



      The argument from analogy




      Knowledge of other minds poses special problems for Berkeley. Besides taking the bodies of other persons to be mere collections of
      ideas in my mind, he insisted that I cannot have any idea of the mind or
      spirit of another. For him, ideas are passive and inert and therefore totally
      inadequate to convey a likeness of an active being, spirit, or mind (Principles 27). Lacking ideas of minds, Berkeley supposed that I can still come
      to know of my own mind through a peculiar non-sensory capacity, which
      he called "inward feeling or reflection" (Principles 89), and that I can
      deduce the existence of God by reflecting that only a supremely wise and
      beneficent spirit could produce the variety, order and coherence exhibited
      in my ideas of reality (Principles 30). But while he prided himself on having
      provided a clearer and more certain proof of the existence of a divine spirit
      than any other in history (Dialogues II 212-213), he had little to say about
      why I should suppose that other minds like myself exist.



      Despite these difficulties knowledge of other minds is not the sort of
      insurmountable problem, embarrassment, or scandal commentators on
      Berkeley often make it out to be. He does have an argument for affirming
      the existence of other minds, though it is one which has been widely
      misinterpreted and unjustly criticised. In what follows I will present this
      argument as I believe Berkeley intended it and I will try to show that
      considered from an internal perspective - a perspective which grants the
      basic tenets of Berkeley's immaterialism - it is both coherent and plausible. My point will be, therefore, that the philosophy of immaterialism has
      no special problem with other minds and that one can be an immaterialist
      without having to be a sceptic about their existence.



      The primary locus for Berkeley's views on other minds is Principles 145:




      From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of
      other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited
      in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that
      inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany
      them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other
      spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on
      the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my
      self, as effects or concomitant signs.




      It has frequently been maintained that the argument of this passage is one from analogy. Supposedly, Berkeley appeals to a certain resemblance be
      tween our ideas of our own bodies and our ideas of other bodies and from
      this he infers that other minds exist. But the argument for other minds
      that is contained in this passage is not an argument from analogy. Berkeley
      does not say that we infer the existence of other spirits from a resemblance
      between their bodies and our own body or even from a resemblance between
      their operations and our own operations. He simply says that we infer the
      existence of other spirits "from their operations." There are no premises
      affirming likeness or similarity or resemblance between these operations
      and any other. Berkeley does indeed note that these finite spirits, whose
      existence he infers, are "like myself." But this is stated as a conclusion, not
      as a premise.
      A similar point can be made about Principles 148 which, in the process
      of explaining what it is to "see" God, digresses to make the following
      comment on what it is to "see" other minds.




      A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when
      therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive
      only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being
      exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us
      the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we
      do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and
      thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to
      think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves,
      accompanying and represented by it.




      Here again Berkeley concludes the existence of certain finite and created
      spirits "like" ourselves, but the premises for this conclusion make no
      reference to any likeness or analogy. When we see a person we experience
      certain sensations or ideas exhibited in sundry distinct collections. There
      is no remark that these collections resemble any other collection. It is
      simply stated that our experience of certain collections of ideas directs us
      to think that there is a distinct "principle" of thought and motion (like to
      ourselves) which serves as their cause. (Lorne Falkenstein, 'Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds', History of Philosophy Quarterly, Vol. 7, No. 4 (Oct., 1990), pp. 431-440: 431-2.)




      Counter-argument answered




      There is, however, one important use which Berkeley does make of
      analogy when discussing other minds: He notes that it is only through
      reference to my own case that I am able to form some notion or representation of another spirit.
      as we conceive the ideas that are in the minds of other spirits by means of our
      own, which we suppose to be resemblances of them: so we know other spirits
      by means of our own soul, which in that sense is the image or idea of them, it
      having a like respect to other spirits, that blueness or heat by me perceived
      hath to those ideas perceived by another. [Principles 140]
      But note that Berkeley is not here explaining how we come to know that
      other minds exist. He is explaining how we can be able to represent other
      minds in thought. Here indeed analogy is at play. We have some "notion"
      of our own minds through an extra-sensory, inner intuition and we use this
      notion as a model of what other minds must be like?as, if you will, the
      "image or idea" of other minds. But to use analogy in order to imagine or
      form a notion of other spirits is one thing, to establish the actual existence
      of such imagined entities is quite another. Berkeley affirms the existence
      of other spirits from their effects, not from an analogy with his own case. (Falkenstein: 434.)




      The argument from causation



      Causation is indeed the key.




      While Principles 145 and 148 do not appeal to analogy they do appeal to
      the cause-effect relation. In Principles 145 Berkeley refers to the ideas I
      have as "effects" which are "excited in us" by other spirits or "agents" which
      "concur in their production." And in Principles 148 these other spirits are
      described as "principles" of thought and motion. The idea is clearly that
      from the changes in my ideas?particularly those which I take to be
      expressions of thoughts or motions of a body? I go on to infer the existence
      of a particular cause responsible for those changes. This cause I then take
      to be another spirit, incidentally like myself. Another spirit because, as
      Berkeley frequently insists, spirit just is the only possible cause.3 And like
      myself because, presumably, the effects I witness are limited to the
      thoughts and emotions of some one animated body (hence the spirit is
      another finite spirit) and because these thoughts and motions evidence a
      degree of rationality (hence the spirit is another intelligent spirit).
      Thus I infer the existence of other spirits, not from the resemblance of their
      bodies to my own, such resemblance being totally unnecessary, but "from
      their operations"?operations which, for Berkeley, reduce to alterations,
      motions and combinations of ideas.



      Berkeley's argument for other minds is therefore a casual argument and
      not an argument from analogy. This should not be surprising. Causal
      argumentation does, after all, play a very large role in his thought. In
      Dialogues II he has his partisan, Philonous, declare:




      That from a cause, effect, operation, sign, or other circumstance, there may
      reasonably be inferred the existence of a thing not immediately perceived, and
      that it were absurd for any man to argue against the existence of that thing,
      from his having no direct and positive notion of it, I freely own. [223]




      and in the Principles arguments from effects to causes are used to prove
      such basic doctrines as that spirit must exist as well as ideas (Principles
      26), that some other spirit besides myself must exist (Principles 29), and
      that God exists (Principles 30). Berkeley's argument for other minds is
      merely the last in a series of casual arguments used to establish increasingly specific claims about the metaphysical principles and agencies pro
      ducing our ideas. To read him as appealing instead to analogy is possible
      only by spuriously interpolating premises in no way contained in the text
      of his arguments and by illegitimately ignoring the very explicit causal
      language in which those arguments are presented. ((Falkenstein: 432-3.)







      share|improve this answer

































        1


















        I have already exposed to this problem during my Philosophical journey.



        There are very important questions:



        • Is it possible that there's nothing but God and me?. Is it a solipsism?.


        • Could it be a solipsism but for many spirits?, Each mind passes through a specific clear, orderly, coherent and solipsistic dream?. Or it's one dream, takes place in the same time for many minds?.


        If we can answer the question: what creation means for God?.It is then so easy to expect what type of world, or worlds are created.



        Hindu Philosophy says it is a pastime, sport for God, they call it Lila.



        For God to have more sport, pastime, is it pereferable for creation to be a uni-solipsism or many-solipsism or one dream for many souls (minds)?.



        Thus we have four possibilities:



        1- There's only one world with one mind only=uni-solipsism. That means less pastime, sport for God.



        2- There are many worlds, each world having only one mind=many-solipsism.
        That means more pastime, sport for God.



        3- There's one world having many minds. This means more and more pastime, sport for God.



        4- There are many worlds, each world having many minds. This means the highest pastime, sport for God.



        But, how did Berkeley justify the existence of other minds?, We can quote from his works as follows:



        For Berkeley, we have no direct 'idea' of spirits, albeit we have good reason to believe in the existence of other spirits, for their existence explains the purposeful regularities we find in experience.[21] ("It is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us", Dialogues #145). This is the solution that Berkeley offers to the problem of other minds.



        So, Subjective Idealism=clear, orderly, coherent Dream.



        Justifying other minds=many minds see the same Dream, at the same time.






        share|improve this answer





























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          This issue is addressed in Berkeley's Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, especially 145 and 148, and there is some disagreement as to what the nature of his argument is. Some take it to be an argument by analogy: we see bodies and behaviors similar to our own out there, and infer that there is a mind behind it. Others point out that the analogy, if any, appears in Berkeley's conclusions rather than in his inference steps. Instead, we just infer "other spirits" from "their operations", some "collections of ideas" lead us to believe that there is a cause behind them, and that cause is a mind. If so, this is similar in spirit to the cosmological argument for the existence of God, where the existence of the first cause is first established, and then it is identified with God by (what we would now call) an inference to the best explanation. Indeed, when it comes to God's mind the cosmological argument is part of Berkeley's reasoning. For the analogy argument thesis see Urmson's book, and for its criticism, and defense of the causal argument see Falkenstein, Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds. Here are the source passages:




          "From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my self, as effects or concomitant signs". [Principles 145]



          "A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves, accompanying and represented by". [Principles 148]




          The wording of Principles 145 is somewhat peculiar, especially from the point of view of the causal argument. The finite spirits only "accompany and concur in production" rather than "cause". It is an indication of the fact that for Berkeley God is the ultimate cause of all the commotion. In which case, their existence is not exactly inferred by best explanation to the cause. Berkeley has to deal with this also for the purposes of theodicy, for putting God too close to the causing would make him responsible for the resulting evil. In the Dialogues, Philonus explains:




          "I have nowhere said that God is the only agent who produces all the motions in bodies. It is true, I have denied there are any other agents beside spirits: but this is very consistent with allowing to thinking rational beings, in the production of motions, the use of limited powers, ultimately indeed derived from God, but immediately under the direction of their own wills, which is sufficient to entitle them to all the guilt of their actions."




          This turns theodicy into a peculiar argument for the existence of other minds (other than God's), if not for them God would have to be convicted of causing the apparent mayhem.






          share|improve this answer
































            10


















            This issue is addressed in Berkeley's Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, especially 145 and 148, and there is some disagreement as to what the nature of his argument is. Some take it to be an argument by analogy: we see bodies and behaviors similar to our own out there, and infer that there is a mind behind it. Others point out that the analogy, if any, appears in Berkeley's conclusions rather than in his inference steps. Instead, we just infer "other spirits" from "their operations", some "collections of ideas" lead us to believe that there is a cause behind them, and that cause is a mind. If so, this is similar in spirit to the cosmological argument for the existence of God, where the existence of the first cause is first established, and then it is identified with God by (what we would now call) an inference to the best explanation. Indeed, when it comes to God's mind the cosmological argument is part of Berkeley's reasoning. For the analogy argument thesis see Urmson's book, and for its criticism, and defense of the causal argument see Falkenstein, Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds. Here are the source passages:




            "From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my self, as effects or concomitant signs". [Principles 145]



            "A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves, accompanying and represented by". [Principles 148]




            The wording of Principles 145 is somewhat peculiar, especially from the point of view of the causal argument. The finite spirits only "accompany and concur in production" rather than "cause". It is an indication of the fact that for Berkeley God is the ultimate cause of all the commotion. In which case, their existence is not exactly inferred by best explanation to the cause. Berkeley has to deal with this also for the purposes of theodicy, for putting God too close to the causing would make him responsible for the resulting evil. In the Dialogues, Philonus explains:




            "I have nowhere said that God is the only agent who produces all the motions in bodies. It is true, I have denied there are any other agents beside spirits: but this is very consistent with allowing to thinking rational beings, in the production of motions, the use of limited powers, ultimately indeed derived from God, but immediately under the direction of their own wills, which is sufficient to entitle them to all the guilt of their actions."




            This turns theodicy into a peculiar argument for the existence of other minds (other than God's), if not for them God would have to be convicted of causing the apparent mayhem.






            share|improve this answer






























              10














              10










              10









              This issue is addressed in Berkeley's Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, especially 145 and 148, and there is some disagreement as to what the nature of his argument is. Some take it to be an argument by analogy: we see bodies and behaviors similar to our own out there, and infer that there is a mind behind it. Others point out that the analogy, if any, appears in Berkeley's conclusions rather than in his inference steps. Instead, we just infer "other spirits" from "their operations", some "collections of ideas" lead us to believe that there is a cause behind them, and that cause is a mind. If so, this is similar in spirit to the cosmological argument for the existence of God, where the existence of the first cause is first established, and then it is identified with God by (what we would now call) an inference to the best explanation. Indeed, when it comes to God's mind the cosmological argument is part of Berkeley's reasoning. For the analogy argument thesis see Urmson's book, and for its criticism, and defense of the causal argument see Falkenstein, Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds. Here are the source passages:




              "From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my self, as effects or concomitant signs". [Principles 145]



              "A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves, accompanying and represented by". [Principles 148]




              The wording of Principles 145 is somewhat peculiar, especially from the point of view of the causal argument. The finite spirits only "accompany and concur in production" rather than "cause". It is an indication of the fact that for Berkeley God is the ultimate cause of all the commotion. In which case, their existence is not exactly inferred by best explanation to the cause. Berkeley has to deal with this also for the purposes of theodicy, for putting God too close to the causing would make him responsible for the resulting evil. In the Dialogues, Philonus explains:




              "I have nowhere said that God is the only agent who produces all the motions in bodies. It is true, I have denied there are any other agents beside spirits: but this is very consistent with allowing to thinking rational beings, in the production of motions, the use of limited powers, ultimately indeed derived from God, but immediately under the direction of their own wills, which is sufficient to entitle them to all the guilt of their actions."




              This turns theodicy into a peculiar argument for the existence of other minds (other than God's), if not for them God would have to be convicted of causing the apparent mayhem.






              share|improve this answer
















              This issue is addressed in Berkeley's Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, especially 145 and 148, and there is some disagreement as to what the nature of his argument is. Some take it to be an argument by analogy: we see bodies and behaviors similar to our own out there, and infer that there is a mind behind it. Others point out that the analogy, if any, appears in Berkeley's conclusions rather than in his inference steps. Instead, we just infer "other spirits" from "their operations", some "collections of ideas" lead us to believe that there is a cause behind them, and that cause is a mind. If so, this is similar in spirit to the cosmological argument for the existence of God, where the existence of the first cause is first established, and then it is identified with God by (what we would now call) an inference to the best explanation. Indeed, when it comes to God's mind the cosmological argument is part of Berkeley's reasoning. For the analogy argument thesis see Urmson's book, and for its criticism, and defense of the causal argument see Falkenstein, Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds. Here are the source passages:




              "From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my self, as effects or concomitant signs". [Principles 145]



              "A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves, accompanying and represented by". [Principles 148]




              The wording of Principles 145 is somewhat peculiar, especially from the point of view of the causal argument. The finite spirits only "accompany and concur in production" rather than "cause". It is an indication of the fact that for Berkeley God is the ultimate cause of all the commotion. In which case, their existence is not exactly inferred by best explanation to the cause. Berkeley has to deal with this also for the purposes of theodicy, for putting God too close to the causing would make him responsible for the resulting evil. In the Dialogues, Philonus explains:




              "I have nowhere said that God is the only agent who produces all the motions in bodies. It is true, I have denied there are any other agents beside spirits: but this is very consistent with allowing to thinking rational beings, in the production of motions, the use of limited powers, ultimately indeed derived from God, but immediately under the direction of their own wills, which is sufficient to entitle them to all the guilt of their actions."




              This turns theodicy into a peculiar argument for the existence of other minds (other than God's), if not for them God would have to be convicted of causing the apparent mayhem.







              share|improve this answer















              share|improve this answer




              share|improve this answer








              edited Oct 29 at 11:08

























              answered Oct 15 at 22:59









              ConifoldConifold

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                  2


















                  This issue is clarified by understanding Berkeley's living understanding of his project. Under the principle that ideas become ridiculous when separated from living interests.



                  Berkeley's motivation is to show that reducing knowledge to the subhuman things is impossible. He repeatedly affirms that he is in favor of the common sense attitude, and repeatedly insists that "An Irish man can not attain to these truths," meaning the fantastic ideas of the Metaphysical or Philosophic Materialists who project the intellect into the things. Berkeley takes the side of nous, the higher part of the soul. He argues against episteme, mathematical calculative thinking. His motivation is to show that morality can be derived from the things by nous or reasonableness. God "speaks" to humans through these things. The whole motivation of his system is to say, one can not build up from the subhuman things, mathematically. Rather, one must admit the things higher than man, the moral principles.



                  Therefore, one can see that he must, not merely admit grudgingly, but aver steadfastly, the reality of the human agent and the community of "persons."






                  share|improve this answer
































                    2


















                    This issue is clarified by understanding Berkeley's living understanding of his project. Under the principle that ideas become ridiculous when separated from living interests.



                    Berkeley's motivation is to show that reducing knowledge to the subhuman things is impossible. He repeatedly affirms that he is in favor of the common sense attitude, and repeatedly insists that "An Irish man can not attain to these truths," meaning the fantastic ideas of the Metaphysical or Philosophic Materialists who project the intellect into the things. Berkeley takes the side of nous, the higher part of the soul. He argues against episteme, mathematical calculative thinking. His motivation is to show that morality can be derived from the things by nous or reasonableness. God "speaks" to humans through these things. The whole motivation of his system is to say, one can not build up from the subhuman things, mathematically. Rather, one must admit the things higher than man, the moral principles.



                    Therefore, one can see that he must, not merely admit grudgingly, but aver steadfastly, the reality of the human agent and the community of "persons."






                    share|improve this answer






























                      2














                      2










                      2









                      This issue is clarified by understanding Berkeley's living understanding of his project. Under the principle that ideas become ridiculous when separated from living interests.



                      Berkeley's motivation is to show that reducing knowledge to the subhuman things is impossible. He repeatedly affirms that he is in favor of the common sense attitude, and repeatedly insists that "An Irish man can not attain to these truths," meaning the fantastic ideas of the Metaphysical or Philosophic Materialists who project the intellect into the things. Berkeley takes the side of nous, the higher part of the soul. He argues against episteme, mathematical calculative thinking. His motivation is to show that morality can be derived from the things by nous or reasonableness. God "speaks" to humans through these things. The whole motivation of his system is to say, one can not build up from the subhuman things, mathematically. Rather, one must admit the things higher than man, the moral principles.



                      Therefore, one can see that he must, not merely admit grudgingly, but aver steadfastly, the reality of the human agent and the community of "persons."






                      share|improve this answer
















                      This issue is clarified by understanding Berkeley's living understanding of his project. Under the principle that ideas become ridiculous when separated from living interests.



                      Berkeley's motivation is to show that reducing knowledge to the subhuman things is impossible. He repeatedly affirms that he is in favor of the common sense attitude, and repeatedly insists that "An Irish man can not attain to these truths," meaning the fantastic ideas of the Metaphysical or Philosophic Materialists who project the intellect into the things. Berkeley takes the side of nous, the higher part of the soul. He argues against episteme, mathematical calculative thinking. His motivation is to show that morality can be derived from the things by nous or reasonableness. God "speaks" to humans through these things. The whole motivation of his system is to say, one can not build up from the subhuman things, mathematically. Rather, one must admit the things higher than man, the moral principles.



                      Therefore, one can see that he must, not merely admit grudgingly, but aver steadfastly, the reality of the human agent and the community of "persons."







                      share|improve this answer















                      share|improve this answer




                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Oct 16 at 20:25

























                      answered Oct 16 at 19:45









                      Joseph LutzJoseph Lutz

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                          2


















                          Berkeley and other minds - the basic problem



                          The 'problem of other minds' confronts many philosophical theories for different reasons and with different responses. So how does it arise for Berkeley and what arguments does he deploy in connection with it ?



                          A common approach to 'other minds' - to justify belief in or establish knowledge of their existence - is to use an argument from analogy as set out below. Berkeley's principal reliance seems in contrast to be a causal argument.



                          The argument from analogy




                          Knowledge of other minds poses special problems for Berkeley. Besides taking the bodies of other persons to be mere collections of
                          ideas in my mind, he insisted that I cannot have any idea of the mind or
                          spirit of another. For him, ideas are passive and inert and therefore totally
                          inadequate to convey a likeness of an active being, spirit, or mind (Principles 27). Lacking ideas of minds, Berkeley supposed that I can still come
                          to know of my own mind through a peculiar non-sensory capacity, which
                          he called "inward feeling or reflection" (Principles 89), and that I can
                          deduce the existence of God by reflecting that only a supremely wise and
                          beneficent spirit could produce the variety, order and coherence exhibited
                          in my ideas of reality (Principles 30). But while he prided himself on having
                          provided a clearer and more certain proof of the existence of a divine spirit
                          than any other in history (Dialogues II 212-213), he had little to say about
                          why I should suppose that other minds like myself exist.



                          Despite these difficulties knowledge of other minds is not the sort of
                          insurmountable problem, embarrassment, or scandal commentators on
                          Berkeley often make it out to be. He does have an argument for affirming
                          the existence of other minds, though it is one which has been widely
                          misinterpreted and unjustly criticised. In what follows I will present this
                          argument as I believe Berkeley intended it and I will try to show that
                          considered from an internal perspective - a perspective which grants the
                          basic tenets of Berkeley's immaterialism - it is both coherent and plausible. My point will be, therefore, that the philosophy of immaterialism has
                          no special problem with other minds and that one can be an immaterialist
                          without having to be a sceptic about their existence.



                          The primary locus for Berkeley's views on other minds is Principles 145:




                          From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of
                          other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited
                          in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that
                          inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany
                          them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other
                          spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on
                          the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my
                          self, as effects or concomitant signs.




                          It has frequently been maintained that the argument of this passage is one from analogy. Supposedly, Berkeley appeals to a certain resemblance be
                          tween our ideas of our own bodies and our ideas of other bodies and from
                          this he infers that other minds exist. But the argument for other minds
                          that is contained in this passage is not an argument from analogy. Berkeley
                          does not say that we infer the existence of other spirits from a resemblance
                          between their bodies and our own body or even from a resemblance between
                          their operations and our own operations. He simply says that we infer the
                          existence of other spirits "from their operations." There are no premises
                          affirming likeness or similarity or resemblance between these operations
                          and any other. Berkeley does indeed note that these finite spirits, whose
                          existence he infers, are "like myself." But this is stated as a conclusion, not
                          as a premise.
                          A similar point can be made about Principles 148 which, in the process
                          of explaining what it is to "see" God, digresses to make the following
                          comment on what it is to "see" other minds.




                          A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when
                          therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive
                          only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being
                          exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us
                          the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we
                          do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and
                          thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to
                          think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves,
                          accompanying and represented by it.




                          Here again Berkeley concludes the existence of certain finite and created
                          spirits "like" ourselves, but the premises for this conclusion make no
                          reference to any likeness or analogy. When we see a person we experience
                          certain sensations or ideas exhibited in sundry distinct collections. There
                          is no remark that these collections resemble any other collection. It is
                          simply stated that our experience of certain collections of ideas directs us
                          to think that there is a distinct "principle" of thought and motion (like to
                          ourselves) which serves as their cause. (Lorne Falkenstein, 'Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds', History of Philosophy Quarterly, Vol. 7, No. 4 (Oct., 1990), pp. 431-440: 431-2.)




                          Counter-argument answered




                          There is, however, one important use which Berkeley does make of
                          analogy when discussing other minds: He notes that it is only through
                          reference to my own case that I am able to form some notion or representation of another spirit.
                          as we conceive the ideas that are in the minds of other spirits by means of our
                          own, which we suppose to be resemblances of them: so we know other spirits
                          by means of our own soul, which in that sense is the image or idea of them, it
                          having a like respect to other spirits, that blueness or heat by me perceived
                          hath to those ideas perceived by another. [Principles 140]
                          But note that Berkeley is not here explaining how we come to know that
                          other minds exist. He is explaining how we can be able to represent other
                          minds in thought. Here indeed analogy is at play. We have some "notion"
                          of our own minds through an extra-sensory, inner intuition and we use this
                          notion as a model of what other minds must be like?as, if you will, the
                          "image or idea" of other minds. But to use analogy in order to imagine or
                          form a notion of other spirits is one thing, to establish the actual existence
                          of such imagined entities is quite another. Berkeley affirms the existence
                          of other spirits from their effects, not from an analogy with his own case. (Falkenstein: 434.)




                          The argument from causation



                          Causation is indeed the key.




                          While Principles 145 and 148 do not appeal to analogy they do appeal to
                          the cause-effect relation. In Principles 145 Berkeley refers to the ideas I
                          have as "effects" which are "excited in us" by other spirits or "agents" which
                          "concur in their production." And in Principles 148 these other spirits are
                          described as "principles" of thought and motion. The idea is clearly that
                          from the changes in my ideas?particularly those which I take to be
                          expressions of thoughts or motions of a body? I go on to infer the existence
                          of a particular cause responsible for those changes. This cause I then take
                          to be another spirit, incidentally like myself. Another spirit because, as
                          Berkeley frequently insists, spirit just is the only possible cause.3 And like
                          myself because, presumably, the effects I witness are limited to the
                          thoughts and emotions of some one animated body (hence the spirit is
                          another finite spirit) and because these thoughts and motions evidence a
                          degree of rationality (hence the spirit is another intelligent spirit).
                          Thus I infer the existence of other spirits, not from the resemblance of their
                          bodies to my own, such resemblance being totally unnecessary, but "from
                          their operations"?operations which, for Berkeley, reduce to alterations,
                          motions and combinations of ideas.



                          Berkeley's argument for other minds is therefore a casual argument and
                          not an argument from analogy. This should not be surprising. Causal
                          argumentation does, after all, play a very large role in his thought. In
                          Dialogues II he has his partisan, Philonous, declare:




                          That from a cause, effect, operation, sign, or other circumstance, there may
                          reasonably be inferred the existence of a thing not immediately perceived, and
                          that it were absurd for any man to argue against the existence of that thing,
                          from his having no direct and positive notion of it, I freely own. [223]




                          and in the Principles arguments from effects to causes are used to prove
                          such basic doctrines as that spirit must exist as well as ideas (Principles
                          26), that some other spirit besides myself must exist (Principles 29), and
                          that God exists (Principles 30). Berkeley's argument for other minds is
                          merely the last in a series of casual arguments used to establish increasingly specific claims about the metaphysical principles and agencies pro
                          ducing our ideas. To read him as appealing instead to analogy is possible
                          only by spuriously interpolating premises in no way contained in the text
                          of his arguments and by illegitimately ignoring the very explicit causal
                          language in which those arguments are presented. ((Falkenstein: 432-3.)







                          share|improve this answer






























                            2


















                            Berkeley and other minds - the basic problem



                            The 'problem of other minds' confronts many philosophical theories for different reasons and with different responses. So how does it arise for Berkeley and what arguments does he deploy in connection with it ?



                            A common approach to 'other minds' - to justify belief in or establish knowledge of their existence - is to use an argument from analogy as set out below. Berkeley's principal reliance seems in contrast to be a causal argument.



                            The argument from analogy




                            Knowledge of other minds poses special problems for Berkeley. Besides taking the bodies of other persons to be mere collections of
                            ideas in my mind, he insisted that I cannot have any idea of the mind or
                            spirit of another. For him, ideas are passive and inert and therefore totally
                            inadequate to convey a likeness of an active being, spirit, or mind (Principles 27). Lacking ideas of minds, Berkeley supposed that I can still come
                            to know of my own mind through a peculiar non-sensory capacity, which
                            he called "inward feeling or reflection" (Principles 89), and that I can
                            deduce the existence of God by reflecting that only a supremely wise and
                            beneficent spirit could produce the variety, order and coherence exhibited
                            in my ideas of reality (Principles 30). But while he prided himself on having
                            provided a clearer and more certain proof of the existence of a divine spirit
                            than any other in history (Dialogues II 212-213), he had little to say about
                            why I should suppose that other minds like myself exist.



                            Despite these difficulties knowledge of other minds is not the sort of
                            insurmountable problem, embarrassment, or scandal commentators on
                            Berkeley often make it out to be. He does have an argument for affirming
                            the existence of other minds, though it is one which has been widely
                            misinterpreted and unjustly criticised. In what follows I will present this
                            argument as I believe Berkeley intended it and I will try to show that
                            considered from an internal perspective - a perspective which grants the
                            basic tenets of Berkeley's immaterialism - it is both coherent and plausible. My point will be, therefore, that the philosophy of immaterialism has
                            no special problem with other minds and that one can be an immaterialist
                            without having to be a sceptic about their existence.



                            The primary locus for Berkeley's views on other minds is Principles 145:




                            From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of
                            other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited
                            in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that
                            inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany
                            them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other
                            spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on
                            the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my
                            self, as effects or concomitant signs.




                            It has frequently been maintained that the argument of this passage is one from analogy. Supposedly, Berkeley appeals to a certain resemblance be
                            tween our ideas of our own bodies and our ideas of other bodies and from
                            this he infers that other minds exist. But the argument for other minds
                            that is contained in this passage is not an argument from analogy. Berkeley
                            does not say that we infer the existence of other spirits from a resemblance
                            between their bodies and our own body or even from a resemblance between
                            their operations and our own operations. He simply says that we infer the
                            existence of other spirits "from their operations." There are no premises
                            affirming likeness or similarity or resemblance between these operations
                            and any other. Berkeley does indeed note that these finite spirits, whose
                            existence he infers, are "like myself." But this is stated as a conclusion, not
                            as a premise.
                            A similar point can be made about Principles 148 which, in the process
                            of explaining what it is to "see" God, digresses to make the following
                            comment on what it is to "see" other minds.




                            A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when
                            therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive
                            only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being
                            exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us
                            the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we
                            do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and
                            thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to
                            think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves,
                            accompanying and represented by it.




                            Here again Berkeley concludes the existence of certain finite and created
                            spirits "like" ourselves, but the premises for this conclusion make no
                            reference to any likeness or analogy. When we see a person we experience
                            certain sensations or ideas exhibited in sundry distinct collections. There
                            is no remark that these collections resemble any other collection. It is
                            simply stated that our experience of certain collections of ideas directs us
                            to think that there is a distinct "principle" of thought and motion (like to
                            ourselves) which serves as their cause. (Lorne Falkenstein, 'Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds', History of Philosophy Quarterly, Vol. 7, No. 4 (Oct., 1990), pp. 431-440: 431-2.)




                            Counter-argument answered




                            There is, however, one important use which Berkeley does make of
                            analogy when discussing other minds: He notes that it is only through
                            reference to my own case that I am able to form some notion or representation of another spirit.
                            as we conceive the ideas that are in the minds of other spirits by means of our
                            own, which we suppose to be resemblances of them: so we know other spirits
                            by means of our own soul, which in that sense is the image or idea of them, it
                            having a like respect to other spirits, that blueness or heat by me perceived
                            hath to those ideas perceived by another. [Principles 140]
                            But note that Berkeley is not here explaining how we come to know that
                            other minds exist. He is explaining how we can be able to represent other
                            minds in thought. Here indeed analogy is at play. We have some "notion"
                            of our own minds through an extra-sensory, inner intuition and we use this
                            notion as a model of what other minds must be like?as, if you will, the
                            "image or idea" of other minds. But to use analogy in order to imagine or
                            form a notion of other spirits is one thing, to establish the actual existence
                            of such imagined entities is quite another. Berkeley affirms the existence
                            of other spirits from their effects, not from an analogy with his own case. (Falkenstein: 434.)




                            The argument from causation



                            Causation is indeed the key.




                            While Principles 145 and 148 do not appeal to analogy they do appeal to
                            the cause-effect relation. In Principles 145 Berkeley refers to the ideas I
                            have as "effects" which are "excited in us" by other spirits or "agents" which
                            "concur in their production." And in Principles 148 these other spirits are
                            described as "principles" of thought and motion. The idea is clearly that
                            from the changes in my ideas?particularly those which I take to be
                            expressions of thoughts or motions of a body? I go on to infer the existence
                            of a particular cause responsible for those changes. This cause I then take
                            to be another spirit, incidentally like myself. Another spirit because, as
                            Berkeley frequently insists, spirit just is the only possible cause.3 And like
                            myself because, presumably, the effects I witness are limited to the
                            thoughts and emotions of some one animated body (hence the spirit is
                            another finite spirit) and because these thoughts and motions evidence a
                            degree of rationality (hence the spirit is another intelligent spirit).
                            Thus I infer the existence of other spirits, not from the resemblance of their
                            bodies to my own, such resemblance being totally unnecessary, but "from
                            their operations"?operations which, for Berkeley, reduce to alterations,
                            motions and combinations of ideas.



                            Berkeley's argument for other minds is therefore a casual argument and
                            not an argument from analogy. This should not be surprising. Causal
                            argumentation does, after all, play a very large role in his thought. In
                            Dialogues II he has his partisan, Philonous, declare:




                            That from a cause, effect, operation, sign, or other circumstance, there may
                            reasonably be inferred the existence of a thing not immediately perceived, and
                            that it were absurd for any man to argue against the existence of that thing,
                            from his having no direct and positive notion of it, I freely own. [223]




                            and in the Principles arguments from effects to causes are used to prove
                            such basic doctrines as that spirit must exist as well as ideas (Principles
                            26), that some other spirit besides myself must exist (Principles 29), and
                            that God exists (Principles 30). Berkeley's argument for other minds is
                            merely the last in a series of casual arguments used to establish increasingly specific claims about the metaphysical principles and agencies pro
                            ducing our ideas. To read him as appealing instead to analogy is possible
                            only by spuriously interpolating premises in no way contained in the text
                            of his arguments and by illegitimately ignoring the very explicit causal
                            language in which those arguments are presented. ((Falkenstein: 432-3.)







                            share|improve this answer




























                              2














                              2










                              2









                              Berkeley and other minds - the basic problem



                              The 'problem of other minds' confronts many philosophical theories for different reasons and with different responses. So how does it arise for Berkeley and what arguments does he deploy in connection with it ?



                              A common approach to 'other minds' - to justify belief in or establish knowledge of their existence - is to use an argument from analogy as set out below. Berkeley's principal reliance seems in contrast to be a causal argument.



                              The argument from analogy




                              Knowledge of other minds poses special problems for Berkeley. Besides taking the bodies of other persons to be mere collections of
                              ideas in my mind, he insisted that I cannot have any idea of the mind or
                              spirit of another. For him, ideas are passive and inert and therefore totally
                              inadequate to convey a likeness of an active being, spirit, or mind (Principles 27). Lacking ideas of minds, Berkeley supposed that I can still come
                              to know of my own mind through a peculiar non-sensory capacity, which
                              he called "inward feeling or reflection" (Principles 89), and that I can
                              deduce the existence of God by reflecting that only a supremely wise and
                              beneficent spirit could produce the variety, order and coherence exhibited
                              in my ideas of reality (Principles 30). But while he prided himself on having
                              provided a clearer and more certain proof of the existence of a divine spirit
                              than any other in history (Dialogues II 212-213), he had little to say about
                              why I should suppose that other minds like myself exist.



                              Despite these difficulties knowledge of other minds is not the sort of
                              insurmountable problem, embarrassment, or scandal commentators on
                              Berkeley often make it out to be. He does have an argument for affirming
                              the existence of other minds, though it is one which has been widely
                              misinterpreted and unjustly criticised. In what follows I will present this
                              argument as I believe Berkeley intended it and I will try to show that
                              considered from an internal perspective - a perspective which grants the
                              basic tenets of Berkeley's immaterialism - it is both coherent and plausible. My point will be, therefore, that the philosophy of immaterialism has
                              no special problem with other minds and that one can be an immaterialist
                              without having to be a sceptic about their existence.



                              The primary locus for Berkeley's views on other minds is Principles 145:




                              From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of
                              other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited
                              in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that
                              inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany
                              them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other
                              spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on
                              the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my
                              self, as effects or concomitant signs.




                              It has frequently been maintained that the argument of this passage is one from analogy. Supposedly, Berkeley appeals to a certain resemblance be
                              tween our ideas of our own bodies and our ideas of other bodies and from
                              this he infers that other minds exist. But the argument for other minds
                              that is contained in this passage is not an argument from analogy. Berkeley
                              does not say that we infer the existence of other spirits from a resemblance
                              between their bodies and our own body or even from a resemblance between
                              their operations and our own operations. He simply says that we infer the
                              existence of other spirits "from their operations." There are no premises
                              affirming likeness or similarity or resemblance between these operations
                              and any other. Berkeley does indeed note that these finite spirits, whose
                              existence he infers, are "like myself." But this is stated as a conclusion, not
                              as a premise.
                              A similar point can be made about Principles 148 which, in the process
                              of explaining what it is to "see" God, digresses to make the following
                              comment on what it is to "see" other minds.




                              A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when
                              therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive
                              only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being
                              exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us
                              the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we
                              do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and
                              thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to
                              think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves,
                              accompanying and represented by it.




                              Here again Berkeley concludes the existence of certain finite and created
                              spirits "like" ourselves, but the premises for this conclusion make no
                              reference to any likeness or analogy. When we see a person we experience
                              certain sensations or ideas exhibited in sundry distinct collections. There
                              is no remark that these collections resemble any other collection. It is
                              simply stated that our experience of certain collections of ideas directs us
                              to think that there is a distinct "principle" of thought and motion (like to
                              ourselves) which serves as their cause. (Lorne Falkenstein, 'Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds', History of Philosophy Quarterly, Vol. 7, No. 4 (Oct., 1990), pp. 431-440: 431-2.)




                              Counter-argument answered




                              There is, however, one important use which Berkeley does make of
                              analogy when discussing other minds: He notes that it is only through
                              reference to my own case that I am able to form some notion or representation of another spirit.
                              as we conceive the ideas that are in the minds of other spirits by means of our
                              own, which we suppose to be resemblances of them: so we know other spirits
                              by means of our own soul, which in that sense is the image or idea of them, it
                              having a like respect to other spirits, that blueness or heat by me perceived
                              hath to those ideas perceived by another. [Principles 140]
                              But note that Berkeley is not here explaining how we come to know that
                              other minds exist. He is explaining how we can be able to represent other
                              minds in thought. Here indeed analogy is at play. We have some "notion"
                              of our own minds through an extra-sensory, inner intuition and we use this
                              notion as a model of what other minds must be like?as, if you will, the
                              "image or idea" of other minds. But to use analogy in order to imagine or
                              form a notion of other spirits is one thing, to establish the actual existence
                              of such imagined entities is quite another. Berkeley affirms the existence
                              of other spirits from their effects, not from an analogy with his own case. (Falkenstein: 434.)




                              The argument from causation



                              Causation is indeed the key.




                              While Principles 145 and 148 do not appeal to analogy they do appeal to
                              the cause-effect relation. In Principles 145 Berkeley refers to the ideas I
                              have as "effects" which are "excited in us" by other spirits or "agents" which
                              "concur in their production." And in Principles 148 these other spirits are
                              described as "principles" of thought and motion. The idea is clearly that
                              from the changes in my ideas?particularly those which I take to be
                              expressions of thoughts or motions of a body? I go on to infer the existence
                              of a particular cause responsible for those changes. This cause I then take
                              to be another spirit, incidentally like myself. Another spirit because, as
                              Berkeley frequently insists, spirit just is the only possible cause.3 And like
                              myself because, presumably, the effects I witness are limited to the
                              thoughts and emotions of some one animated body (hence the spirit is
                              another finite spirit) and because these thoughts and motions evidence a
                              degree of rationality (hence the spirit is another intelligent spirit).
                              Thus I infer the existence of other spirits, not from the resemblance of their
                              bodies to my own, such resemblance being totally unnecessary, but "from
                              their operations"?operations which, for Berkeley, reduce to alterations,
                              motions and combinations of ideas.



                              Berkeley's argument for other minds is therefore a casual argument and
                              not an argument from analogy. This should not be surprising. Causal
                              argumentation does, after all, play a very large role in his thought. In
                              Dialogues II he has his partisan, Philonous, declare:




                              That from a cause, effect, operation, sign, or other circumstance, there may
                              reasonably be inferred the existence of a thing not immediately perceived, and
                              that it were absurd for any man to argue against the existence of that thing,
                              from his having no direct and positive notion of it, I freely own. [223]




                              and in the Principles arguments from effects to causes are used to prove
                              such basic doctrines as that spirit must exist as well as ideas (Principles
                              26), that some other spirit besides myself must exist (Principles 29), and
                              that God exists (Principles 30). Berkeley's argument for other minds is
                              merely the last in a series of casual arguments used to establish increasingly specific claims about the metaphysical principles and agencies pro
                              ducing our ideas. To read him as appealing instead to analogy is possible
                              only by spuriously interpolating premises in no way contained in the text
                              of his arguments and by illegitimately ignoring the very explicit causal
                              language in which those arguments are presented. ((Falkenstein: 432-3.)







                              share|improve this answer














                              Berkeley and other minds - the basic problem



                              The 'problem of other minds' confronts many philosophical theories for different reasons and with different responses. So how does it arise for Berkeley and what arguments does he deploy in connection with it ?



                              A common approach to 'other minds' - to justify belief in or establish knowledge of their existence - is to use an argument from analogy as set out below. Berkeley's principal reliance seems in contrast to be a causal argument.



                              The argument from analogy




                              Knowledge of other minds poses special problems for Berkeley. Besides taking the bodies of other persons to be mere collections of
                              ideas in my mind, he insisted that I cannot have any idea of the mind or
                              spirit of another. For him, ideas are passive and inert and therefore totally
                              inadequate to convey a likeness of an active being, spirit, or mind (Principles 27). Lacking ideas of minds, Berkeley supposed that I can still come
                              to know of my own mind through a peculiar non-sensory capacity, which
                              he called "inward feeling or reflection" (Principles 89), and that I can
                              deduce the existence of God by reflecting that only a supremely wise and
                              beneficent spirit could produce the variety, order and coherence exhibited
                              in my ideas of reality (Principles 30). But while he prided himself on having
                              provided a clearer and more certain proof of the existence of a divine spirit
                              than any other in history (Dialogues II 212-213), he had little to say about
                              why I should suppose that other minds like myself exist.



                              Despite these difficulties knowledge of other minds is not the sort of
                              insurmountable problem, embarrassment, or scandal commentators on
                              Berkeley often make it out to be. He does have an argument for affirming
                              the existence of other minds, though it is one which has been widely
                              misinterpreted and unjustly criticised. In what follows I will present this
                              argument as I believe Berkeley intended it and I will try to show that
                              considered from an internal perspective - a perspective which grants the
                              basic tenets of Berkeley's immaterialism - it is both coherent and plausible. My point will be, therefore, that the philosophy of immaterialism has
                              no special problem with other minds and that one can be an immaterialist
                              without having to be a sceptic about their existence.



                              The primary locus for Berkeley's views on other minds is Principles 145:




                              From what hath been said, it is plain that we cannot know the existence of
                              other spirits, otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited
                              in us. I perceive several motions, changes, and combinations of ideas, that
                              inform me there are certain particular agents like my self, which accompany
                              them, and concur in their production. Hence the knowledge I have of other
                              spirits is not immediate, as is the knowledge of my ideas; but depending on
                              the intervention of ideas, by me referred to agents or spirits distinct from my
                              self, as effects or concomitant signs.




                              It has frequently been maintained that the argument of this passage is one from analogy. Supposedly, Berkeley appeals to a certain resemblance be
                              tween our ideas of our own bodies and our ideas of other bodies and from
                              this he infers that other minds exist. But the argument for other minds
                              that is contained in this passage is not an argument from analogy. Berkeley
                              does not say that we infer the existence of other spirits from a resemblance
                              between their bodies and our own body or even from a resemblance between
                              their operations and our own operations. He simply says that we infer the
                              existence of other spirits "from their operations." There are no premises
                              affirming likeness or similarity or resemblance between these operations
                              and any other. Berkeley does indeed note that these finite spirits, whose
                              existence he infers, are "like myself." But this is stated as a conclusion, not
                              as a premise.
                              A similar point can be made about Principles 148 which, in the process
                              of explaining what it is to "see" God, digresses to make the following
                              comment on what it is to "see" other minds.




                              A human spirit or person is not perceived by sense, as not being an idea; when
                              therefore we see the colour, size, figure, and motions of a man, we perceive
                              only certain sensations or ideas excited in our own minds: and these being
                              exhibited to our view in sundry distinct collections, serve to mark out unto us
                              the existence of finite and created spirits like our selves. Hence it is plain, we
                              do not see a man, if by man is meant that which lives, moves, perceives, and
                              thinks as we do: but only such a certain collection of ideas, as directs us to
                              think there is a distinct principle of thought and motion like to our selves,
                              accompanying and represented by it.




                              Here again Berkeley concludes the existence of certain finite and created
                              spirits "like" ourselves, but the premises for this conclusion make no
                              reference to any likeness or analogy. When we see a person we experience
                              certain sensations or ideas exhibited in sundry distinct collections. There
                              is no remark that these collections resemble any other collection. It is
                              simply stated that our experience of certain collections of ideas directs us
                              to think that there is a distinct "principle" of thought and motion (like to
                              ourselves) which serves as their cause. (Lorne Falkenstein, 'Berkeley's Argument for Other Minds', History of Philosophy Quarterly, Vol. 7, No. 4 (Oct., 1990), pp. 431-440: 431-2.)




                              Counter-argument answered




                              There is, however, one important use which Berkeley does make of
                              analogy when discussing other minds: He notes that it is only through
                              reference to my own case that I am able to form some notion or representation of another spirit.
                              as we conceive the ideas that are in the minds of other spirits by means of our
                              own, which we suppose to be resemblances of them: so we know other spirits
                              by means of our own soul, which in that sense is the image or idea of them, it
                              having a like respect to other spirits, that blueness or heat by me perceived
                              hath to those ideas perceived by another. [Principles 140]
                              But note that Berkeley is not here explaining how we come to know that
                              other minds exist. He is explaining how we can be able to represent other
                              minds in thought. Here indeed analogy is at play. We have some "notion"
                              of our own minds through an extra-sensory, inner intuition and we use this
                              notion as a model of what other minds must be like?as, if you will, the
                              "image or idea" of other minds. But to use analogy in order to imagine or
                              form a notion of other spirits is one thing, to establish the actual existence
                              of such imagined entities is quite another. Berkeley affirms the existence
                              of other spirits from their effects, not from an analogy with his own case. (Falkenstein: 434.)




                              The argument from causation



                              Causation is indeed the key.




                              While Principles 145 and 148 do not appeal to analogy they do appeal to
                              the cause-effect relation. In Principles 145 Berkeley refers to the ideas I
                              have as "effects" which are "excited in us" by other spirits or "agents" which
                              "concur in their production." And in Principles 148 these other spirits are
                              described as "principles" of thought and motion. The idea is clearly that
                              from the changes in my ideas?particularly those which I take to be
                              expressions of thoughts or motions of a body? I go on to infer the existence
                              of a particular cause responsible for those changes. This cause I then take
                              to be another spirit, incidentally like myself. Another spirit because, as
                              Berkeley frequently insists, spirit just is the only possible cause.3 And like
                              myself because, presumably, the effects I witness are limited to the
                              thoughts and emotions of some one animated body (hence the spirit is
                              another finite spirit) and because these thoughts and motions evidence a
                              degree of rationality (hence the spirit is another intelligent spirit).
                              Thus I infer the existence of other spirits, not from the resemblance of their
                              bodies to my own, such resemblance being totally unnecessary, but "from
                              their operations"?operations which, for Berkeley, reduce to alterations,
                              motions and combinations of ideas.



                              Berkeley's argument for other minds is therefore a casual argument and
                              not an argument from analogy. This should not be surprising. Causal
                              argumentation does, after all, play a very large role in his thought. In
                              Dialogues II he has his partisan, Philonous, declare:




                              That from a cause, effect, operation, sign, or other circumstance, there may
                              reasonably be inferred the existence of a thing not immediately perceived, and
                              that it were absurd for any man to argue against the existence of that thing,
                              from his having no direct and positive notion of it, I freely own. [223]




                              and in the Principles arguments from effects to causes are used to prove
                              such basic doctrines as that spirit must exist as well as ideas (Principles
                              26), that some other spirit besides myself must exist (Principles 29), and
                              that God exists (Principles 30). Berkeley's argument for other minds is
                              merely the last in a series of casual arguments used to establish increasingly specific claims about the metaphysical principles and agencies pro
                              ducing our ideas. To read him as appealing instead to analogy is possible
                              only by spuriously interpolating premises in no way contained in the text
                              of his arguments and by illegitimately ignoring the very explicit causal
                              language in which those arguments are presented. ((Falkenstein: 432-3.)








                              share|improve this answer













                              share|improve this answer




                              share|improve this answer










                              answered Oct 17 at 12:00









                              Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas

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                                  1


















                                  I have already exposed to this problem during my Philosophical journey.



                                  There are very important questions:



                                  • Is it possible that there's nothing but God and me?. Is it a solipsism?.


                                  • Could it be a solipsism but for many spirits?, Each mind passes through a specific clear, orderly, coherent and solipsistic dream?. Or it's one dream, takes place in the same time for many minds?.


                                  If we can answer the question: what creation means for God?.It is then so easy to expect what type of world, or worlds are created.



                                  Hindu Philosophy says it is a pastime, sport for God, they call it Lila.



                                  For God to have more sport, pastime, is it pereferable for creation to be a uni-solipsism or many-solipsism or one dream for many souls (minds)?.



                                  Thus we have four possibilities:



                                  1- There's only one world with one mind only=uni-solipsism. That means less pastime, sport for God.



                                  2- There are many worlds, each world having only one mind=many-solipsism.
                                  That means more pastime, sport for God.



                                  3- There's one world having many minds. This means more and more pastime, sport for God.



                                  4- There are many worlds, each world having many minds. This means the highest pastime, sport for God.



                                  But, how did Berkeley justify the existence of other minds?, We can quote from his works as follows:



                                  For Berkeley, we have no direct 'idea' of spirits, albeit we have good reason to believe in the existence of other spirits, for their existence explains the purposeful regularities we find in experience.[21] ("It is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us", Dialogues #145). This is the solution that Berkeley offers to the problem of other minds.



                                  So, Subjective Idealism=clear, orderly, coherent Dream.



                                  Justifying other minds=many minds see the same Dream, at the same time.






                                  share|improve this answer
































                                    1


















                                    I have already exposed to this problem during my Philosophical journey.



                                    There are very important questions:



                                    • Is it possible that there's nothing but God and me?. Is it a solipsism?.


                                    • Could it be a solipsism but for many spirits?, Each mind passes through a specific clear, orderly, coherent and solipsistic dream?. Or it's one dream, takes place in the same time for many minds?.


                                    If we can answer the question: what creation means for God?.It is then so easy to expect what type of world, or worlds are created.



                                    Hindu Philosophy says it is a pastime, sport for God, they call it Lila.



                                    For God to have more sport, pastime, is it pereferable for creation to be a uni-solipsism or many-solipsism or one dream for many souls (minds)?.



                                    Thus we have four possibilities:



                                    1- There's only one world with one mind only=uni-solipsism. That means less pastime, sport for God.



                                    2- There are many worlds, each world having only one mind=many-solipsism.
                                    That means more pastime, sport for God.



                                    3- There's one world having many minds. This means more and more pastime, sport for God.



                                    4- There are many worlds, each world having many minds. This means the highest pastime, sport for God.



                                    But, how did Berkeley justify the existence of other minds?, We can quote from his works as follows:



                                    For Berkeley, we have no direct 'idea' of spirits, albeit we have good reason to believe in the existence of other spirits, for their existence explains the purposeful regularities we find in experience.[21] ("It is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us", Dialogues #145). This is the solution that Berkeley offers to the problem of other minds.



                                    So, Subjective Idealism=clear, orderly, coherent Dream.



                                    Justifying other minds=many minds see the same Dream, at the same time.






                                    share|improve this answer






























                                      1














                                      1










                                      1









                                      I have already exposed to this problem during my Philosophical journey.



                                      There are very important questions:



                                      • Is it possible that there's nothing but God and me?. Is it a solipsism?.


                                      • Could it be a solipsism but for many spirits?, Each mind passes through a specific clear, orderly, coherent and solipsistic dream?. Or it's one dream, takes place in the same time for many minds?.


                                      If we can answer the question: what creation means for God?.It is then so easy to expect what type of world, or worlds are created.



                                      Hindu Philosophy says it is a pastime, sport for God, they call it Lila.



                                      For God to have more sport, pastime, is it pereferable for creation to be a uni-solipsism or many-solipsism or one dream for many souls (minds)?.



                                      Thus we have four possibilities:



                                      1- There's only one world with one mind only=uni-solipsism. That means less pastime, sport for God.



                                      2- There are many worlds, each world having only one mind=many-solipsism.
                                      That means more pastime, sport for God.



                                      3- There's one world having many minds. This means more and more pastime, sport for God.



                                      4- There are many worlds, each world having many minds. This means the highest pastime, sport for God.



                                      But, how did Berkeley justify the existence of other minds?, We can quote from his works as follows:



                                      For Berkeley, we have no direct 'idea' of spirits, albeit we have good reason to believe in the existence of other spirits, for their existence explains the purposeful regularities we find in experience.[21] ("It is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us", Dialogues #145). This is the solution that Berkeley offers to the problem of other minds.



                                      So, Subjective Idealism=clear, orderly, coherent Dream.



                                      Justifying other minds=many minds see the same Dream, at the same time.






                                      share|improve this answer
















                                      I have already exposed to this problem during my Philosophical journey.



                                      There are very important questions:



                                      • Is it possible that there's nothing but God and me?. Is it a solipsism?.


                                      • Could it be a solipsism but for many spirits?, Each mind passes through a specific clear, orderly, coherent and solipsistic dream?. Or it's one dream, takes place in the same time for many minds?.


                                      If we can answer the question: what creation means for God?.It is then so easy to expect what type of world, or worlds are created.



                                      Hindu Philosophy says it is a pastime, sport for God, they call it Lila.



                                      For God to have more sport, pastime, is it pereferable for creation to be a uni-solipsism or many-solipsism or one dream for many souls (minds)?.



                                      Thus we have four possibilities:



                                      1- There's only one world with one mind only=uni-solipsism. That means less pastime, sport for God.



                                      2- There are many worlds, each world having only one mind=many-solipsism.
                                      That means more pastime, sport for God.



                                      3- There's one world having many minds. This means more and more pastime, sport for God.



                                      4- There are many worlds, each world having many minds. This means the highest pastime, sport for God.



                                      But, how did Berkeley justify the existence of other minds?, We can quote from his works as follows:



                                      For Berkeley, we have no direct 'idea' of spirits, albeit we have good reason to believe in the existence of other spirits, for their existence explains the purposeful regularities we find in experience.[21] ("It is plain that we cannot know the existence of other spirits otherwise than by their operations, or the ideas by them excited in us", Dialogues #145). This is the solution that Berkeley offers to the problem of other minds.



                                      So, Subjective Idealism=clear, orderly, coherent Dream.



                                      Justifying other minds=many minds see the same Dream, at the same time.







                                      share|improve this answer















                                      share|improve this answer




                                      share|improve this answer








                                      edited Nov 1 at 1:30

























                                      answered Oct 16 at 18:29









                                      salahsalah

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