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Multiband vertical antenna not working as expected

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Multiband vertical antenna not working as expected


Vertical antenna on HF?Should I chose a vertical or a horizontal HF antenna?Antenna Tripod for a vertical antennaTheoretical Wifi antenna not working for the expected range2 Meter horizontal or vertical dipole polarization?Why a thousand miles long antenna is not needed to receive LW and MW?What material is best to design a dipole antenna working at VHF frequency?2m Biquad - Why not?Why does not a bigger antenna receive more power?Triband vertical antenna 6/2/70













3












$begingroup$


I built a vertical out of a 5M aluminium pipe. It tunes fine (and wide!) on 20M.
I decided to add a loading coil to operate it on 40M, and it also worked fine, albeit not so wide.
While I was at it, I extended the coil for operation on 80M as well. It became super narrow! But it worked.



To test this, I used crocodile wires to bite into the coil. I decided make a remote switch out of relays. But it's not working as expected when operating 80M. The SWR jumps around like crazy on my meter, and at some point it just stays inifinite.



This is what I built:



enter image description here



What I suspect is that when both relays are off, there is a very high voltage across the relays and an arc forms, due to the high Q of the coil.
This does not happen when the 40 or 20M relays are activated. The antenna works more or less as expected when the 40 or 20M relays are active.



Could this be the problem? Could it be solved somehow?



I thought of using traps instead of relays to make the antenna "auto switching", but I'm not sure if traps would add more loss than the relays, or if they would whitstand the high voltages appearing on the coil.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    What relays are you using?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago















3












$begingroup$


I built a vertical out of a 5M aluminium pipe. It tunes fine (and wide!) on 20M.
I decided to add a loading coil to operate it on 40M, and it also worked fine, albeit not so wide.
While I was at it, I extended the coil for operation on 80M as well. It became super narrow! But it worked.



To test this, I used crocodile wires to bite into the coil. I decided make a remote switch out of relays. But it's not working as expected when operating 80M. The SWR jumps around like crazy on my meter, and at some point it just stays inifinite.



This is what I built:



enter image description here



What I suspect is that when both relays are off, there is a very high voltage across the relays and an arc forms, due to the high Q of the coil.
This does not happen when the 40 or 20M relays are activated. The antenna works more or less as expected when the 40 or 20M relays are active.



Could this be the problem? Could it be solved somehow?



I thought of using traps instead of relays to make the antenna "auto switching", but I'm not sure if traps would add more loss than the relays, or if they would whitstand the high voltages appearing on the coil.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    What relays are you using?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago













3












3








3





$begingroup$


I built a vertical out of a 5M aluminium pipe. It tunes fine (and wide!) on 20M.
I decided to add a loading coil to operate it on 40M, and it also worked fine, albeit not so wide.
While I was at it, I extended the coil for operation on 80M as well. It became super narrow! But it worked.



To test this, I used crocodile wires to bite into the coil. I decided make a remote switch out of relays. But it's not working as expected when operating 80M. The SWR jumps around like crazy on my meter, and at some point it just stays inifinite.



This is what I built:



enter image description here



What I suspect is that when both relays are off, there is a very high voltage across the relays and an arc forms, due to the high Q of the coil.
This does not happen when the 40 or 20M relays are activated. The antenna works more or less as expected when the 40 or 20M relays are active.



Could this be the problem? Could it be solved somehow?



I thought of using traps instead of relays to make the antenna "auto switching", but I'm not sure if traps would add more loss than the relays, or if they would whitstand the high voltages appearing on the coil.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




I built a vertical out of a 5M aluminium pipe. It tunes fine (and wide!) on 20M.
I decided to add a loading coil to operate it on 40M, and it also worked fine, albeit not so wide.
While I was at it, I extended the coil for operation on 80M as well. It became super narrow! But it worked.



To test this, I used crocodile wires to bite into the coil. I decided make a remote switch out of relays. But it's not working as expected when operating 80M. The SWR jumps around like crazy on my meter, and at some point it just stays inifinite.



This is what I built:



enter image description here



What I suspect is that when both relays are off, there is a very high voltage across the relays and an arc forms, due to the high Q of the coil.
This does not happen when the 40 or 20M relays are activated. The antenna works more or less as expected when the 40 or 20M relays are active.



Could this be the problem? Could it be solved somehow?



I thought of using traps instead of relays to make the antenna "auto switching", but I'm not sure if traps would add more loss than the relays, or if they would whitstand the high voltages appearing on the coil.







antenna vertical






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 9 hours ago









hjfhjf

1813




1813











  • $begingroup$
    What relays are you using?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    What relays are you using?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago















$begingroup$
What relays are you using?
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
What relays are you using?
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
7 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

It may very well be that the open contacts are arcing, and I'm betting that's what is happening.



Here are some possible solutions. How about using different relays that have less tendency to arc:



  1. Open-frame relays with much wider contact spacing

  2. Vacuum relays

  3. Multiple relays in series

Another possibility might be that RF on the control lines may be activating the relays. Suitable RF chokes and bypass capacitors might help that.



It's a myth that all traps are lossy. If they don't get hot to the touch at sustained 100W or higher, then their loss is insignificant. Scroll to the bottom of https://www.w8ji.com/traps.htm:


3.) Do traps create noticeable loss, perhaps one dB per trap typically?



NO! Even the worst traps (coaxial traps) in the worse possible condition of operation are only 1.6dB loss for BOTH traps!







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What about these? tme.com/ar/es/details/li05-1a85/reles-electromagn-de-lengueta/… they are inexpensive reed relays, rated for 4KV
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf What voltage are your present relay contacts rated at?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Just regular "ice cube" no-name chinese relays with generic specs. probably 250V.
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago


















1












$begingroup$

Your suspicion is justified. Voltage increases (and current decreases) as you move toward the open-circuited end of the antenna. The most common solution is to situate the loading coil - and, perhaps, a resonating capacitor - at the base of the antenna. A base-loaded vertical only 5m tall will not be very efficient on 80m, but a center-loaded antenna will probably not be great either, as it's only about 1/4 the length of a resonant monopole.



The voltage along the 5m radiator can be reduced and efficiency can be improved by effectively lengthening the radiator with "top hat" conductors. This will increase the current at the top of your 5m aluminum pipe and, depending on the size of the top hat, reduce the amount of inductive loading you need to add.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    But a hatted 5M vertical won't tune in 20M, correct?
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf If it won't, disconnect it with a HV relay as suggested in my answer here.
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf Since you have to add compensating reactance, you might decide to make the system resonant on 40m and "tune" it on 20m and 80m. The permutations of lengths and loading are endless!
    $endgroup$
    – Brian K1LI
    6 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @BrianK1LI Added that link you your comment. ;-)
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    3 hours ago











Your Answer






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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









3












$begingroup$

It may very well be that the open contacts are arcing, and I'm betting that's what is happening.



Here are some possible solutions. How about using different relays that have less tendency to arc:



  1. Open-frame relays with much wider contact spacing

  2. Vacuum relays

  3. Multiple relays in series

Another possibility might be that RF on the control lines may be activating the relays. Suitable RF chokes and bypass capacitors might help that.



It's a myth that all traps are lossy. If they don't get hot to the touch at sustained 100W or higher, then their loss is insignificant. Scroll to the bottom of https://www.w8ji.com/traps.htm:


3.) Do traps create noticeable loss, perhaps one dB per trap typically?



NO! Even the worst traps (coaxial traps) in the worse possible condition of operation are only 1.6dB loss for BOTH traps!







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What about these? tme.com/ar/es/details/li05-1a85/reles-electromagn-de-lengueta/… they are inexpensive reed relays, rated for 4KV
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf What voltage are your present relay contacts rated at?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Just regular "ice cube" no-name chinese relays with generic specs. probably 250V.
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago















3












$begingroup$

It may very well be that the open contacts are arcing, and I'm betting that's what is happening.



Here are some possible solutions. How about using different relays that have less tendency to arc:



  1. Open-frame relays with much wider contact spacing

  2. Vacuum relays

  3. Multiple relays in series

Another possibility might be that RF on the control lines may be activating the relays. Suitable RF chokes and bypass capacitors might help that.



It's a myth that all traps are lossy. If they don't get hot to the touch at sustained 100W or higher, then their loss is insignificant. Scroll to the bottom of https://www.w8ji.com/traps.htm:


3.) Do traps create noticeable loss, perhaps one dB per trap typically?



NO! Even the worst traps (coaxial traps) in the worse possible condition of operation are only 1.6dB loss for BOTH traps!







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What about these? tme.com/ar/es/details/li05-1a85/reles-electromagn-de-lengueta/… they are inexpensive reed relays, rated for 4KV
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf What voltage are your present relay contacts rated at?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Just regular "ice cube" no-name chinese relays with generic specs. probably 250V.
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago













3












3








3





$begingroup$

It may very well be that the open contacts are arcing, and I'm betting that's what is happening.



Here are some possible solutions. How about using different relays that have less tendency to arc:



  1. Open-frame relays with much wider contact spacing

  2. Vacuum relays

  3. Multiple relays in series

Another possibility might be that RF on the control lines may be activating the relays. Suitable RF chokes and bypass capacitors might help that.



It's a myth that all traps are lossy. If they don't get hot to the touch at sustained 100W or higher, then their loss is insignificant. Scroll to the bottom of https://www.w8ji.com/traps.htm:


3.) Do traps create noticeable loss, perhaps one dB per trap typically?



NO! Even the worst traps (coaxial traps) in the worse possible condition of operation are only 1.6dB loss for BOTH traps!







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



It may very well be that the open contacts are arcing, and I'm betting that's what is happening.



Here are some possible solutions. How about using different relays that have less tendency to arc:



  1. Open-frame relays with much wider contact spacing

  2. Vacuum relays

  3. Multiple relays in series

Another possibility might be that RF on the control lines may be activating the relays. Suitable RF chokes and bypass capacitors might help that.



It's a myth that all traps are lossy. If they don't get hot to the touch at sustained 100W or higher, then their loss is insignificant. Scroll to the bottom of https://www.w8ji.com/traps.htm:


3.) Do traps create noticeable loss, perhaps one dB per trap typically?



NO! Even the worst traps (coaxial traps) in the worse possible condition of operation are only 1.6dB loss for BOTH traps!








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago

























answered 7 hours ago









Mike WatersMike Waters

4,1152635




4,1152635











  • $begingroup$
    What about these? tme.com/ar/es/details/li05-1a85/reles-electromagn-de-lengueta/… they are inexpensive reed relays, rated for 4KV
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf What voltage are your present relay contacts rated at?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Just regular "ice cube" no-name chinese relays with generic specs. probably 250V.
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    What about these? tme.com/ar/es/details/li05-1a85/reles-electromagn-de-lengueta/… they are inexpensive reed relays, rated for 4KV
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf What voltage are your present relay contacts rated at?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Just regular "ice cube" no-name chinese relays with generic specs. probably 250V.
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    7 hours ago















$begingroup$
What about these? tme.com/ar/es/details/li05-1a85/reles-electromagn-de-lengueta/… they are inexpensive reed relays, rated for 4KV
$endgroup$
– hjf
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
What about these? tme.com/ar/es/details/li05-1a85/reles-electromagn-de-lengueta/… they are inexpensive reed relays, rated for 4KV
$endgroup$
– hjf
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
@hjf What voltage are your present relay contacts rated at?
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
@hjf What voltage are your present relay contacts rated at?
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
7 hours ago





1




1




$begingroup$
Just regular "ice cube" no-name chinese relays with generic specs. probably 250V.
$endgroup$
– hjf
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Just regular "ice cube" no-name chinese relays with generic specs. probably 250V.
$endgroup$
– hjf
7 hours ago











1












$begingroup$

Your suspicion is justified. Voltage increases (and current decreases) as you move toward the open-circuited end of the antenna. The most common solution is to situate the loading coil - and, perhaps, a resonating capacitor - at the base of the antenna. A base-loaded vertical only 5m tall will not be very efficient on 80m, but a center-loaded antenna will probably not be great either, as it's only about 1/4 the length of a resonant monopole.



The voltage along the 5m radiator can be reduced and efficiency can be improved by effectively lengthening the radiator with "top hat" conductors. This will increase the current at the top of your 5m aluminum pipe and, depending on the size of the top hat, reduce the amount of inductive loading you need to add.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    But a hatted 5M vertical won't tune in 20M, correct?
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf If it won't, disconnect it with a HV relay as suggested in my answer here.
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf Since you have to add compensating reactance, you might decide to make the system resonant on 40m and "tune" it on 20m and 80m. The permutations of lengths and loading are endless!
    $endgroup$
    – Brian K1LI
    6 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @BrianK1LI Added that link you your comment. ;-)
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    3 hours ago















1












$begingroup$

Your suspicion is justified. Voltage increases (and current decreases) as you move toward the open-circuited end of the antenna. The most common solution is to situate the loading coil - and, perhaps, a resonating capacitor - at the base of the antenna. A base-loaded vertical only 5m tall will not be very efficient on 80m, but a center-loaded antenna will probably not be great either, as it's only about 1/4 the length of a resonant monopole.



The voltage along the 5m radiator can be reduced and efficiency can be improved by effectively lengthening the radiator with "top hat" conductors. This will increase the current at the top of your 5m aluminum pipe and, depending on the size of the top hat, reduce the amount of inductive loading you need to add.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    But a hatted 5M vertical won't tune in 20M, correct?
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf If it won't, disconnect it with a HV relay as suggested in my answer here.
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf Since you have to add compensating reactance, you might decide to make the system resonant on 40m and "tune" it on 20m and 80m. The permutations of lengths and loading are endless!
    $endgroup$
    – Brian K1LI
    6 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @BrianK1LI Added that link you your comment. ;-)
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    3 hours ago













1












1








1





$begingroup$

Your suspicion is justified. Voltage increases (and current decreases) as you move toward the open-circuited end of the antenna. The most common solution is to situate the loading coil - and, perhaps, a resonating capacitor - at the base of the antenna. A base-loaded vertical only 5m tall will not be very efficient on 80m, but a center-loaded antenna will probably not be great either, as it's only about 1/4 the length of a resonant monopole.



The voltage along the 5m radiator can be reduced and efficiency can be improved by effectively lengthening the radiator with "top hat" conductors. This will increase the current at the top of your 5m aluminum pipe and, depending on the size of the top hat, reduce the amount of inductive loading you need to add.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Your suspicion is justified. Voltage increases (and current decreases) as you move toward the open-circuited end of the antenna. The most common solution is to situate the loading coil - and, perhaps, a resonating capacitor - at the base of the antenna. A base-loaded vertical only 5m tall will not be very efficient on 80m, but a center-loaded antenna will probably not be great either, as it's only about 1/4 the length of a resonant monopole.



The voltage along the 5m radiator can be reduced and efficiency can be improved by effectively lengthening the radiator with "top hat" conductors. This will increase the current at the top of your 5m aluminum pipe and, depending on the size of the top hat, reduce the amount of inductive loading you need to add.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 8 hours ago









Brian K1LIBrian K1LI

3,130417




3,130417







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    But a hatted 5M vertical won't tune in 20M, correct?
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf If it won't, disconnect it with a HV relay as suggested in my answer here.
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf Since you have to add compensating reactance, you might decide to make the system resonant on 40m and "tune" it on 20m and 80m. The permutations of lengths and loading are endless!
    $endgroup$
    – Brian K1LI
    6 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @BrianK1LI Added that link you your comment. ;-)
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    3 hours ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    But a hatted 5M vertical won't tune in 20M, correct?
    $endgroup$
    – hjf
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf If it won't, disconnect it with a HV relay as suggested in my answer here.
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @hjf Since you have to add compensating reactance, you might decide to make the system resonant on 40m and "tune" it on 20m and 80m. The permutations of lengths and loading are endless!
    $endgroup$
    – Brian K1LI
    6 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @BrianK1LI Added that link you your comment. ;-)
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Waters
    3 hours ago







1




1




$begingroup$
But a hatted 5M vertical won't tune in 20M, correct?
$endgroup$
– hjf
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
But a hatted 5M vertical won't tune in 20M, correct?
$endgroup$
– hjf
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
@hjf If it won't, disconnect it with a HV relay as suggested in my answer here.
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
@hjf If it won't, disconnect it with a HV relay as suggested in my answer here.
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
@hjf Since you have to add compensating reactance, you might decide to make the system resonant on 40m and "tune" it on 20m and 80m. The permutations of lengths and loading are endless!
$endgroup$
– Brian K1LI
6 hours ago





$begingroup$
@hjf Since you have to add compensating reactance, you might decide to make the system resonant on 40m and "tune" it on 20m and 80m. The permutations of lengths and loading are endless!
$endgroup$
– Brian K1LI
6 hours ago













$begingroup$
@BrianK1LI Added that link you your comment. ;-)
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@BrianK1LI Added that link you your comment. ;-)
$endgroup$
– Mike Waters
3 hours ago

















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